Korean Air Interview Profile
 

I would greatly appreciate any and all information on the Korean Air Captain Interview Profile with regards to the B767 and B777.

I would especially be interested in hearing from any expat Pilots who are currently flying for Korean Air or have interviewed with them.

I thank you in advance for your assistance.

(bump)

I would too!

Forget It Ive been trying to get actual info on the Qatari interview but nobody seems too want to give any actual info.

Becareful of what you wish for
 

Korean Air B-777 Dec 3, 2007 training class.

As of April, 2008 the final pass/fail results for our class is:
There is only one pilot that passed his CASA check ride. Only one pilot remains employed out of six (6) that started in the Dec 3, 2007 B-777 class at Korean Air! Two members of our class had thousands of previous hours flying the B-777 (they were NOT newly rated) and the rest of us were highly qualified, but newly rated B-777 Captains. Every one of us passed ALL of our other Korean Air check rides and oral examinations and recommendation ride. We passed everything except for the final CASA check ride. Neither of the previously rated B-777 pilots passed their check ride. The only one that passed was newly rated and had been a B-737 Captain. (More background information regarding my qualifications and flying experience is outlined below.) The statistics presented in this report should be very revealing, especially if you consider the fact that most of the class previous to ours didn’t succeed in making it through their check rides either. I understand that the same CASA inspector conducted their check rides as well. And the class before that - most of their pilots failed. For the last three classes in a row, CASA and/or Korean Air failed all of the pilots except for one or two. Korean Air refused to give me any details on the exact failure rate and told my class that those pilots had failed because they lied on their resume’s. That is not consistent with the story that I heard from a very reliable source or the way myself and others in my class have been treated. Statistically, anyone should be able to see that something is very wrong with this process! It is devastating to the pilots that have invested so much of their time, money and professional reputation to pursue a job at Korean Air. My intent in this report is to inform new applicants of the situation at Korean Air before you throw away your time and money. I also must set the record straight to protect my professional reputation. I am telling you this so you can hear it from me personally instead of the “spin” that will surely be put on the real truth by CASA and Korean Air management. I have no doubt that they will simply say ‘[we] were not qualified’ and/or did not live up to Korean Air Standards or didn’t follow the POM/FOM. It is not true! Do not believe it.
“No Notes” and Negative Training: As of March 25, 2008 I have flown 8 trips (16 sectors/legs) with 5 instructors. I have had so many instructors because I requested an instructor change after the first four legs and apparently they could not regain continuity in scheduling with any other instructor. It was necessary for me to request a replacement of the first instructor and here is why: He spoke very poor English at best. I just couldn’t understand him. It could have been his frustration in his inability to speak English that caused him to communicate with me by actually yelling at me, insulting me and belittling me. He chastised and berated me for not knowing all HIS flight techniques that are being taught as procedures. I only understood a small percentage of what he said although his favorite line was “Do you understand!!?” in a booming voice. No, I didn’t understand. However, I did understand him when he said he couldn’t believe that I had been a Captain for a major airline. Others in my class complained repeatedly of similar disrespectful comments and treatment. My final decision to change instructors was made when he told me I could no longer refer to any of my written notes. He threatened to have me fired if I referenced them again. He threatened me with termination for doing what I have always done for 34 years! Since I had just started my Operational Experience (OE) and since so many others had been terminated, I had to consider his comment to be a viable threat. He was a Korean Air Line Check Pilot (LCP). His unreasonable requirement included my not being able to use the route study notes that I had written down from the required viewing of the audio visual route and airport videos (AV Packs). This was a double standard because he constantly referred to his own notes for frequencies, PA’s etc., etc.. EVERYONE I have ever talked to and flown with at Korean Air Lines has told me they used their notes to learn from, fly with, and to survive the arduous memory requirements of Korean Air training. I have used personal flight notes for 34 years starting in gliders with a knee board to write notes while flying. The absurdity of his ‘no notes’ concept is - if they wanted us to memorize everything, then why do we even have electronic checklists, POM, FOM and PA guides or even the ‘Airport Analysis Charts’ in the cockpit? Those first four legs (sectors) of my OE were totally wasted in negative training. At its worst, it was pure harassment. At its best, every ride was treated as a check ride. It was constant ridicule with very little instruction. It certainly was NOT western style training. I knew I would not survive the OE with this instructor so my only choice was to request an instructor change. It was a difficult decision to make because I had been told of the potential dire consequences of requesting an instructor change (due to the ‘losing face’ issue). That difficult choice was only made after a lot of consultation. I consulted with Foreign Captain “Advisor to Line Operations”, Al Makdisi. He told me not to use my notes. I also consulted with Tom Divine, “Advisor Flight Standards and Training” and many other line pilots.

Each new instructor taught me his own techniques and called them Korean Air procedures. I complied and faithfully followed those procedures and documented all the changes in a script that I sent via email with multiple updates to many other pilots who were starting training class at Korean Air Lines in order to assist them in getting a head start before their OE. After studying for months, I knew the content of the FOM/POM but was not aware of its interpretation or its application until I was almost finished with my OE since each new instructor ‘inspired’ constant changes to the techniques and “the script”.
The above information is taken in part from a letter written by an "experienced foriegn Captain" who was terminated after failure of is CASA line check.
It reproduced here for your consideration should you decide to come to work here, for what ever reason.
Things here are not perfect and require an individual who is mentally strong and can put up with the peculiar not necessarily coherent way of training.
I strongly suggest that you take a leave of absents from your current employer.
Good Luck.

Korean air training
 

Have u passed everything now? Now they start hiring FOs on all fleet, i just applied for B777FO, was told the selection on 26th May 08. If this happens to Capts, it'll be worse on FOs! Those guys we fired or actually retrained and passed?

They were fired, no details given. Just bring your books, uniform etc and get out of here.
Nice, huh?

Harrowing AND expensive experience:uhoh:. Correct me if I'm wrong but KAL NEEDS pilots BUT want THEM to PAY for the type rating,go through all the hoops(provided these guys mentioned are decent drivers) and then FAIL them!? Hmm....hope these guys thoroughly did their homework before investing any kind of money.
Why would anyone want to pay big $$$ to go work for a company that needs THEIR services?! Sad.

Good luck to those who are in the same situation....:bored:

Cheers,

RWTY

Mediocre pay and NO benefits, too. I'd rather drive a truck for UPS.

Condolence for who had to subject oneself for the abusive training in KAL. But it isn't anything new. Someone said it before here on PPRuNe... it's like winning the lottery in KAL. Some have great experience in OE and some have it really bad.

Why pay for your own Capt. B777 or A330 type to work? (Could it be because some guys don't have time on type? Why isn't that fare?) Yes and why is anybody "pilot whore" want to fly for these K bastards? You should join Delta, UA or AA. They don't make you pay for ur B777 rating. But, then again... they start you out as FO on B737; bottom of the seniority list.

Agree w/ ORD767. Rather then flying for KAL; driving a truck for UPS is much more superior. I'm sure UPS will pay for your Commercial Driver's License; Professional Truck Driver Institute for the double and triple trailers.

Culling of expatriates
 

Does anyone know if this culling ( more like a massacre ) of expatriates in KAL also happens in Asiana ? :ouch:

Well Guys,

Sadley, its a case of not doing your homework, reading the books (really reading them), knowing your enemy and pay'in your dues.

Otherwise, they'd be the best airline to work for...........

.......go figure!!!

poor training.
 

Cokebottle.....that is just rubbish.This type of crap training is an embarrassment to our proffession.I have 34 years of flying and would consider working for them, but refuse to be subjected to that kind of torture.I know that I would likely just walk off the job.Ive been an instructor for over 9000 hours of heavy jets and there is just no place for this kind of thing anymore.Stuff them.Im staying in Thailand.

Sadly, I'd have to agree that there is something more to Human Cargo's post than simply not doing your homework.

Being told not to refer to your notes is a telltale sign, IMO. After many years of being a check pilot on a heavy I've learned that the students who took notes during their OE were nearly always the better pilots.

It sounds more like an earnest attempt by a capable pilot to make the grade. Unfortunately, not only is he out the cost of the type rating, but now also has a huge blemish on his resume which he'll have to explain at every job interview from now on.

Still, I'd love to hear if anyone else has a different perspective

typical OLD school training, huh, I believe he's one of the guys who havent changed a bit from the time he left Military flight training school, and still believes in the same old flight techniques he's learned from the time airplanes were flown in war....I believe they're still at war with the North....so I'd just say he hasn't been around....:zzz: Good Day Mate!!! and good luck on your OE's in KAL or Asiana.

KAL is KAL
 

piratepete,

To quote an old line training instructor I once had..."All I'm say'in...."

KAL has a well deserved reputation and history and any "career" professional contract pilot would know. Their modus operandi, both in training and on the line is well known.

Sun Sue (not sure of the spelling) in the art of war stated, if you know your enemy better than thy self, you will never suffer a defeat.

So my post stands....do your homework, read theirbooks on theirprocedures, study their(Korean) history, attitudes and culture.

Jezzzz...if I was going to spend the money for them to type me - I'd really make sure I fitted in and openly agree with everything they say (you can have your own mind in private).

Lastly, "pay'in your dues"...if your over there as a means to get that command seat before your really ready for it - you belong in a casino.

The instructors may be ex-Air Force neanderthals but they can spot sweaty palms a mile off.

TWN PPL has alluded to the bottom line - Its their train set......

FO Cokebottle , You are right on the money. Read their books, know their procedures, try to get along.
In reference to the KAL candidate [ex-Delta] who failed. Probably
wasn't a good idea to request an instructor change, as a mandatory
instructor change happens half-way through OE training anyway. Similarly,if I was to request an instructor change at Delta, I would be on
a "watch-list" as well.

Just because he had a good flying record at Delta, is irrelevent.
Coming in with a good attitude, doing your homework, and forgetting
where you came from [it's not Delta] is the key to success.

Korean Air B-777 Dec 3, 2007 training class
 

54fighting and FO Cockbottle you are incorrect. There was no instructor change scheduled for my training. I was scheduled for the same instructor all the way through OE. I have the printouts to prove it. As far as my prior employment at Delta is concerned, an instructor change would probably not be necessary in the first place as I have never run into an abusive instructor that taught his own techniques. If it was required, as with a few friends, it was done with no questions asked and no repercussions.

Your posts were way off base and not in touch with reality. I am the author of the excerpt (the original report is 8 pages long) of the KAL training report that was posted on this web site by someone else and it is true in every sense. My class was subjected to the most horrendous nontraining environment anyone has ever experienced. I know how to "get along" and present a good image. I wasn't born yesterday. It had nothing to do with that. I also know the books inside and out.

In the future I suggest you stick to topics you know something about instead of misleading readers for some political reasons. Do you work for KAL management? What was the purpose of your post?

Asian culture is all about remembering whats in the bookand not arguing with your boss. Once your tranings done, u can relax (besides pointing out their mistakes). Luckily its not practised anymore here in south. rather than testing, we conduct training and discussion.

cantdance, is it true, the sims are conducted by foreigners while Line training by Koreans? How 'bad' is their english? Also, do they fly all the time because they can't do radio call because of their bad english?

Can'tdance,

Happened to catch your ranting & raving in the crewroom at the ICN Hyatt Hotel. Kind of pathetic to watch.
I'm curious as to why you are screaming for your freebie tickets on KAL, to fly your family to Thailand. And the next breath, you are screaming that KAL is one of the most dangerous airlines in the world [this
from your own 8 page text]. You sure you want to fly KAL???
Good luck straightening out that logic.
Now that you have time. Good luck with the dance lessons.

Lottery!
 

It is exactly what was written about KAL here: it's just a big lottery.
It's not about your abilities, experience level, airmanship etc. It depends only on the mood of the clown of the day, if their kimmchy was good or not.

Too sad an otherwise good airline still empowers some really sick bastards to judge who's good or not for them. I know about at least 10 excellent professionals, with all possible credentials on experience, instructors, checkairmen etc that bozos failed for nothing, while guys below average passed and are happy (?) there.

My recomendation is: do not risk your present job for an outfit like this, or, at the best, take a leave of abscence if you really want to try.
They are not serious.

Gents , can any of you give us some honest examples of the " type" of questions you are asked on line training ( broken English et al) . Also when you say guys are being failed on their checkrides . Is this the local regulating body (CAA equivalent) inspector or KAL examiner thats failing the guys ? Its difficult to form a picture of the process.

Surely you cant be expected to memorise frequencies en route etc etc.?

Thanks

Indeed as someone mentioned, success in KAL is like winning a lottery. When I first came during the end of the dark days in late 1999 and early 2000, OE was very " loud " with hardly any training. Every flight was a check flight with the LCP jumping at every trivial thing not to his liking. I almost gave up until I was assigned to a wonderful new foreign LCP. This chap showed me the ropes; ever patient he went through a whole 3 days before our OE training together at the OC building in Kimpo using the fixed base engineering ( I to was a non rated DEC ). I was so lucky to have a series of OE training with this gentleman that I had enough confidence to continue with the torturous OE training. Obviously he was quite respected by the then head of KAL B777 training ( if I remember right, he was the first KAL B777 expat recruited ) and he did put in a good word for me.

If one manage to get a good report from a " senior " LCP, then the juniors will continue the train of good report and it will be fairly comfortable training on. If one start on a wrong foot with a nasty, then it's a goner! A lottery really!!

I am now out of there for some years now. Looking back I wouldn't want to do it again. The stress, uncertainty and arbitary changes in contract conditions were too much to bear. I aged, I guess, at almost 3 times the rate as my contemporaries in SQ, EK etc. For guys with a fairly outfit, do think hard, very hard before embarking on this kimchi adventure!

How true are the posts on this thread. Have a few buddies - Koreans and foreigners - both at KAL and Asiana. I just have to chuckle and shake my head. I feel for the guys who failed. And I hear it's pretty much the same across the channel in the land of the rising sun. The pass/fail rate at ANA last year and this year was only marginally better than
KAL's.

Definitely do your homework on the company and the societal culture before you consider anything in the Far East.

Sorry Joe
 

May I humbly disagre with you: the passe/fail rate ratio means nothing as long as the evaluation system itself is absolutely inconsistent.
It's more a lottery than anything else. It's not related to proficiency, experience or airmanship.

You are clearly misinformed or are one of the "lottery" winners or even KAL staff, sorry...

It's interesting that every time I'm about to decide to take a look at that outfit I discover that the sad circus is still going on full tilt.:mad:

The Asian Quickstep.....Lesson One
 

Dear Cantdance,

I thought of a long winded response to your last post, especially the management jibe. However, after 54fighting highlighted your overt actions and attitudes in the "house of your keeper". I have decided to let you know what I am about...

I am just a "white nigger" earning my corn bread and mighty thankful to my master.

Suggested reading: Samual Huntington's Clash of Civilisations

KAL
 

PM me if you want to read the whole story posted by 'Human Cargo'.

Does it read like a Greek Tradgedy???

Korean Air lies are called "saving face"
 

54fighting: Last year (2007) at Korean Air 11 out of 14 B-777 pilots were sent home (in your words: "failed training"). In 2008; so far 5 out of 6 pilots have 'failed'. Think about it. Statistically that just isn't possible unless something is seriously wrong. You may have read my report but you obviously didn't understand it. Or as a management 'wanabee' (maybe you are management) you are doing all you can to discredit the truth. All I was trying to do is give a heads up to pilots that are planning to spend $20,000 or more of their hard earned money on the B-777 type rating only to find out that the Korean Air offer is a sham. I didn't get my money back. Additionally I spent four of the most miserable months of my life giving them my best effort and doing exactly what they wanted. In the end they lied. They are still lying and calling it "saving face".

54fighting handle is obviously a misnomer. Fighting who? I think the rest of the readers get it. I can't help you.

Obviously you did not do your homework wrt working for KAL...it's a lottery with heavy odds stacked against you. Maybe you were lured into this by expat fellows in KAL who want to swell up expat ranks so that they can be " management " something in the KAL flight ops circus.

Play The Game.
 

COKEBOTTLE.
How is Tai-pay??.The most valid point in all this, is that no amount of homework and good attitude will be enough to counter a Training Captain with a bad attitude to students.The most basic of attributes for a trainer is that he MUST NOT present methods and techniques that are purely his own as if they are Company SOP.This is unproffessional and can only be adapted to by taking notes so you can remember each and every trainers personal methods.You stated Asiana and KAL have good reputations, but I seem to remember the whole world was aghast with the very high number of crashes in Korea in the not too distant past, and their poor training methods, as shown on PPRUNE would be a big factor in all this.Fcuk them, im NOT going there.

Piratepete,

Tai-pay is fine - the amount of money is not the only T & C to be considered in a LIFESTYLE

My statement was:

....and not the:

from your last post.

Gotta run..tha masta is a call'in

Why are you not going there and expirience first hand how embarressing the training is. You sit up and do your "homework" and when you show up for the flight you will learn that all is worth nothing..... you will not pass. You are not up to standart. Consequently you bring your books and you will be out faster then you think, China is similar, bad Pilot is the feedback to the Agency.

During the period of 1998/99 there was just a note under your door in the Hotel. Ticket to fly home in an envelope. Leave the Company property with the Hotel. Believe it, what is stated above is only the tip of the Iceberg. What the fellows do to you, you understand is not imaginable in any nightmare. If you are at a Bar and tell the people what you encountered there they look at you and think you have a too wild imagination but is only a fraction. If you are on a suicidal mission then go for it: Destroy your confidence and career path. Who want´s to state in his CV why he left KAL after 3 or 4 months. When I get a CV on the table and read the short period of time there then I know it was as training issue.

I can contact some Buddy´s there for you but it is your call, not mine.

Fly safe and land happy

NG

B737NG,

as far as I remember you left KAL voluntary and in bad terms before your OE even started.
And did you pay back CAL your training bond?
How does that look in your CV?
You know,because of you nobody gets off anmore between recieving the passport back and OE,you did KAL management a real favour with showing off your attitude.
better spare the mankind with your drivel.

TOM744, are you Tom Divine, “Advisor Flight Standards and Training” for KAL?

Shame!
 

Too sad this scandal arose only now, through the courage and dignity of few.
How many careers and professional reputations, not counting families suffering could be saved if people could know in advance what a trap they were lured into.
It's beyond imagination why the main airline of a country with so many fantastic achievements endorses such dirty, untrustworthy tricks.
What a bunch of liars and psychopats!:\



And shame on you TOM in defending such a cage of reptiles.

B-744 Program?
 

Are the same antics going on in the 744 pipeline?

@j-p744

no, I'm not Tom Divine.

@fullforward

I'm NOT defending these practices;
I'm in contact with the person concerned and yes, it's a shame!
But my post was entirely directed to someone who pretends to know about it but actally left after ground training and therefore has only second hand information.

@portquartercv67

as I am aware there are almost no failures on the 744 but it happens occasionally.
It's totally differnt from western training culture; don't expect any instruction;they expect you to know everything.
If you know about asian culture and know your standart callouts you almost made it.
But it's not a guarantee; some guys had really bad luck and their training was a big hassle but they passed at the end.
That's 744, 777 is different in the moment.

And it's true,
from the last 777 course 6 out of 7 failed; the failure rate in previous 777 courses was only a little better.

What about on the A330 fleet?

Are we talking about all 777 courses or just the full transition courses? How many, if any of the failed guys were previously endorsed with time on the aircraft?

I’ve been at KAL a bunch of years. One of the best contract jobs around.
But I can relate to what cantdance writes. I see no exaggeration, I’ve seen it all.

The LCP acting as F/O for him for his checkride is one of the nicest fellows around, a true gentleman. But faced with the pressure of an already decided outcome by the KMOT, he did what generations before him has done – knuckled down under superior pressure. He should have performed as CRM dictated, and challenged the checker on unfair issues, been a man for once, but would I have been different if I had been raised in that culture? Would you have?

Cantdance, you are right to feel anger, I do too, you grew up in a culture that was so different, as did I, and even though you were aware of the vast cultural differences, some things are absolute, especially in aviation, transcending the barriers, so that you were compelled to speak out. I commend you, you were right, and I’m glad you let us all know.

We've seen many improvements over the last decade, but there are many more required.