Korean Air Interview Profile
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Korean Air Interview Profile
I would greatly appreciate any and all information on the Korean Air Captain Interview Profile with regards to the B767 and B777.
I would especially be interested in hearing from any expat Pilots who are currently flying for Korean Air or have interviewed with them.
I thank you in advance for your assistance.
I would especially be interested in hearing from any expat Pilots who are currently flying for Korean Air or have interviewed with them.
I thank you in advance for your assistance.
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Becareful of what you wish for
Korean Air B-777 Dec 3, 2007 training class.
As of April, 2008 the final pass/fail results for our class is:
There is only one pilot that passed his CASA check ride. Only one pilot remains employed out of six (6) that started in the Dec 3, 2007 B-777 class at Korean Air! Two members of our class had thousands of previous hours flying the B-777 (they were NOT newly rated) and the rest of us were highly qualified, but newly rated B-777 Captains. Every one of us passed ALL of our other Korean Air check rides and oral examinations and recommendation ride. We passed everything except for the final CASA check ride. Neither of the previously rated B-777 pilots passed their check ride. The only one that passed was newly rated and had been a B-737 Captain. (More background information regarding my qualifications and flying experience is outlined below.) The statistics presented in this report should be very revealing, especially if you consider the fact that most of the class previous to ours didn’t succeed in making it through their check rides either. I understand that the same CASA inspector conducted their check rides as well. And the class before that - most of their pilots failed. For the last three classes in a row, CASA and/or Korean Air failed all of the pilots except for one or two. Korean Air refused to give me any details on the exact failure rate and told my class that those pilots had failed because they lied on their resume’s. That is not consistent with the story that I heard from a very reliable source or the way myself and others in my class have been treated. Statistically, anyone should be able to see that something is very wrong with this process! It is devastating to the pilots that have invested so much of their time, money and professional reputation to pursue a job at Korean Air. My intent in this report is to inform new applicants of the situation at Korean Air before you throw away your time and money. I also must set the record straight to protect my professional reputation. I am telling you this so you can hear it from me personally instead of the “spin” that will surely be put on the real truth by CASA and Korean Air management. I have no doubt that they will simply say ‘[we] were not qualified’ and/or did not live up to Korean Air Standards or didn’t follow the POM/FOM. It is not true! Do not believe it.
“No Notes” and Negative Training: As of March 25, 2008 I have flown 8 trips (16 sectors/legs) with 5 instructors. I have had so many instructors because I requested an instructor change after the first four legs and apparently they could not regain continuity in scheduling with any other instructor. It was necessary for me to request a replacement of the first instructor and here is why: He spoke very poor English at best. I just couldn’t understand him. It could have been his frustration in his inability to speak English that caused him to communicate with me by actually yelling at me, insulting me and belittling me. He chastised and berated me for not knowing all HIS flight techniques that are being taught as procedures. I only understood a small percentage of what he said although his favorite line was “Do you understand!!?” in a booming voice. No, I didn’t understand. However, I did understand him when he said he couldn’t believe that I had been a Captain for a major airline. Others in my class complained repeatedly of similar disrespectful comments and treatment. My final decision to change instructors was made when he told me I could no longer refer to any of my written notes. He threatened to have me fired if I referenced them again. He threatened me with termination for doing what I have always done for 34 years! Since I had just started my Operational Experience (OE) and since so many others had been terminated, I had to consider his comment to be a viable threat. He was a Korean Air Line Check Pilot (LCP). His unreasonable requirement included my not being able to use the route study notes that I had written down from the required viewing of the audio visual route and airport videos (AV Packs). This was a double standard because he constantly referred to his own notes for frequencies, PA’s etc., etc.. EVERYONE I have ever talked to and flown with at Korean Air Lines has told me they used their notes to learn from, fly with, and to survive the arduous memory requirements of Korean Air training. I have used personal flight notes for 34 years starting in gliders with a knee board to write notes while flying. The absurdity of his ‘no notes’ concept is - if they wanted us to memorize everything, then why do we even have electronic checklists, POM, FOM and PA guides or even the ‘Airport Analysis Charts’ in the cockpit? Those first four legs (sectors) of my OE were totally wasted in negative training. At its worst, it was pure harassment. At its best, every ride was treated as a check ride. It was constant ridicule with very little instruction. It certainly was NOT western style training. I knew I would not survive the OE with this instructor so my only choice was to request an instructor change. It was a difficult decision to make because I had been told of the potential dire consequences of requesting an instructor change (due to the ‘losing face’ issue). That difficult choice was only made after a lot of consultation. I consulted with Foreign Captain “Advisor to Line Operations”, Al Makdisi. He told me not to use my notes. I also consulted with Tom Divine, “Advisor Flight Standards and Training” and many other line pilots.
Each new instructor taught me his own techniques and called them Korean Air procedures. I complied and faithfully followed those procedures and documented all the changes in a script that I sent via email with multiple updates to many other pilots who were starting training class at Korean Air Lines in order to assist them in getting a head start before their OE. After studying for months, I knew the content of the FOM/POM but was not aware of its interpretation or its application until I was almost finished with my OE since each new instructor ‘inspired’ constant changes to the techniques and “the script”.
The above information is taken in part from a letter written by an "experienced foriegn Captain" who was terminated after failure of is CASA line check.
It reproduced here for your consideration should you decide to come to work here, for what ever reason.
Things here are not perfect and require an individual who is mentally strong and can put up with the peculiar not necessarily coherent way of training.
I strongly suggest that you take a leave of absents from your current employer.
Good Luck.
As of April, 2008 the final pass/fail results for our class is:
There is only one pilot that passed his CASA check ride. Only one pilot remains employed out of six (6) that started in the Dec 3, 2007 B-777 class at Korean Air! Two members of our class had thousands of previous hours flying the B-777 (they were NOT newly rated) and the rest of us were highly qualified, but newly rated B-777 Captains. Every one of us passed ALL of our other Korean Air check rides and oral examinations and recommendation ride. We passed everything except for the final CASA check ride. Neither of the previously rated B-777 pilots passed their check ride. The only one that passed was newly rated and had been a B-737 Captain. (More background information regarding my qualifications and flying experience is outlined below.) The statistics presented in this report should be very revealing, especially if you consider the fact that most of the class previous to ours didn’t succeed in making it through their check rides either. I understand that the same CASA inspector conducted their check rides as well. And the class before that - most of their pilots failed. For the last three classes in a row, CASA and/or Korean Air failed all of the pilots except for one or two. Korean Air refused to give me any details on the exact failure rate and told my class that those pilots had failed because they lied on their resume’s. That is not consistent with the story that I heard from a very reliable source or the way myself and others in my class have been treated. Statistically, anyone should be able to see that something is very wrong with this process! It is devastating to the pilots that have invested so much of their time, money and professional reputation to pursue a job at Korean Air. My intent in this report is to inform new applicants of the situation at Korean Air before you throw away your time and money. I also must set the record straight to protect my professional reputation. I am telling you this so you can hear it from me personally instead of the “spin” that will surely be put on the real truth by CASA and Korean Air management. I have no doubt that they will simply say ‘[we] were not qualified’ and/or did not live up to Korean Air Standards or didn’t follow the POM/FOM. It is not true! Do not believe it.
“No Notes” and Negative Training: As of March 25, 2008 I have flown 8 trips (16 sectors/legs) with 5 instructors. I have had so many instructors because I requested an instructor change after the first four legs and apparently they could not regain continuity in scheduling with any other instructor. It was necessary for me to request a replacement of the first instructor and here is why: He spoke very poor English at best. I just couldn’t understand him. It could have been his frustration in his inability to speak English that caused him to communicate with me by actually yelling at me, insulting me and belittling me. He chastised and berated me for not knowing all HIS flight techniques that are being taught as procedures. I only understood a small percentage of what he said although his favorite line was “Do you understand!!?” in a booming voice. No, I didn’t understand. However, I did understand him when he said he couldn’t believe that I had been a Captain for a major airline. Others in my class complained repeatedly of similar disrespectful comments and treatment. My final decision to change instructors was made when he told me I could no longer refer to any of my written notes. He threatened to have me fired if I referenced them again. He threatened me with termination for doing what I have always done for 34 years! Since I had just started my Operational Experience (OE) and since so many others had been terminated, I had to consider his comment to be a viable threat. He was a Korean Air Line Check Pilot (LCP). His unreasonable requirement included my not being able to use the route study notes that I had written down from the required viewing of the audio visual route and airport videos (AV Packs). This was a double standard because he constantly referred to his own notes for frequencies, PA’s etc., etc.. EVERYONE I have ever talked to and flown with at Korean Air Lines has told me they used their notes to learn from, fly with, and to survive the arduous memory requirements of Korean Air training. I have used personal flight notes for 34 years starting in gliders with a knee board to write notes while flying. The absurdity of his ‘no notes’ concept is - if they wanted us to memorize everything, then why do we even have electronic checklists, POM, FOM and PA guides or even the ‘Airport Analysis Charts’ in the cockpit? Those first four legs (sectors) of my OE were totally wasted in negative training. At its worst, it was pure harassment. At its best, every ride was treated as a check ride. It was constant ridicule with very little instruction. It certainly was NOT western style training. I knew I would not survive the OE with this instructor so my only choice was to request an instructor change. It was a difficult decision to make because I had been told of the potential dire consequences of requesting an instructor change (due to the ‘losing face’ issue). That difficult choice was only made after a lot of consultation. I consulted with Foreign Captain “Advisor to Line Operations”, Al Makdisi. He told me not to use my notes. I also consulted with Tom Divine, “Advisor Flight Standards and Training” and many other line pilots.
Each new instructor taught me his own techniques and called them Korean Air procedures. I complied and faithfully followed those procedures and documented all the changes in a script that I sent via email with multiple updates to many other pilots who were starting training class at Korean Air Lines in order to assist them in getting a head start before their OE. After studying for months, I knew the content of the FOM/POM but was not aware of its interpretation or its application until I was almost finished with my OE since each new instructor ‘inspired’ constant changes to the techniques and “the script”.
The above information is taken in part from a letter written by an "experienced foriegn Captain" who was terminated after failure of is CASA line check.
It reproduced here for your consideration should you decide to come to work here, for what ever reason.
Things here are not perfect and require an individual who is mentally strong and can put up with the peculiar not necessarily coherent way of training.
I strongly suggest that you take a leave of absents from your current employer.
Good Luck.
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Korean air training
Have u passed everything now? Now they start hiring FOs on all fleet, i just applied for B777FO, was told the selection on 26th May 08. If this happens to Capts, it'll be worse on FOs! Those guys we fired or actually retrained and passed?
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Harrowing AND expensive experience
. Correct me if I'm wrong but KAL NEEDS pilots BUT want THEM to PAY for the type rating,go through all the hoops(provided these guys mentioned are decent drivers) and then FAIL them!? Hmm....hope these guys thoroughly did their homework before investing any kind of money.
Why would anyone want to pay big $$$ to go work for a company that needs THEIR services?! Sad.
Good luck to those who are in the same situation....
Cheers,
RWTY
. Correct me if I'm wrong but KAL NEEDS pilots BUT want THEM to PAY for the type rating,go through all the hoops(provided these guys mentioned are decent drivers) and then FAIL them!? Hmm....hope these guys thoroughly did their homework before investing any kind of money.Why would anyone want to pay big $$$ to go work for a company that needs THEIR services?! Sad.
Good luck to those who are in the same situation....
Cheers,
RWTY
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Condolence for who had to subject oneself for the abusive training in KAL. But it isn't anything new. Someone said it before here on PPRuNe... it's like winning the lottery in KAL. Some have great experience in OE and some have it really bad.
Why pay for your own Capt. B777 or A330 type to work? (Could it be because some guys don't have time on type? Why isn't that fare?) Yes and why is anybody "pilot whore" want to fly for these K bastards? You should join Delta, UA or AA. They don't make you pay for ur B777 rating. But, then again... they start you out as FO on B737; bottom of the seniority list.
Agree w/ ORD767. Rather then flying for KAL; driving a truck for UPS is much more superior. I'm sure UPS will pay for your Commercial Driver's License; Professional Truck Driver Institute for the double and triple trailers.
Why pay for your own Capt. B777 or A330 type to work? (Could it be because some guys don't have time on type? Why isn't that fare?) Yes and why is anybody "pilot whore" want to fly for these K bastards? You should join Delta, UA or AA. They don't make you pay for ur B777 rating. But, then again... they start you out as FO on B737; bottom of the seniority list.
Agree w/ ORD767. Rather then flying for KAL; driving a truck for UPS is much more superior. I'm sure UPS will pay for your Commercial Driver's License; Professional Truck Driver Institute for the double and triple trailers.
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Well Guys,
Sadley, its a case of not doing your homework, reading the books (really reading them), knowing your enemy and pay'in your dues.
Otherwise, they'd be the best airline to work for...........
.......go figure!!!
Sadley, its a case of not doing your homework, reading the books (really reading them), knowing your enemy and pay'in your dues.
Otherwise, they'd be the best airline to work for...........
.......go figure!!!
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poor training.
Cokebottle.....that is just rubbish.This type of crap training is an embarrassment to our proffession.I have 34 years of flying and would consider working for them, but refuse to be subjected to that kind of torture.I know that I would likely just walk off the job.Ive been an instructor for over 9000 hours of heavy jets and there is just no place for this kind of thing anymore.Stuff them.Im staying in Thailand.
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Sadly, I'd have to agree that there is something more to Human Cargo's post than simply not doing your homework.
Being told not to refer to your notes is a telltale sign, IMO. After many years of being a check pilot on a heavy I've learned that the students who took notes during their OE were nearly always the better pilots.
It sounds more like an earnest attempt by a capable pilot to make the grade. Unfortunately, not only is he out the cost of the type rating, but now also has a huge blemish on his resume which he'll have to explain at every job interview from now on.
Still, I'd love to hear if anyone else has a different perspective
Being told not to refer to your notes is a telltale sign, IMO. After many years of being a check pilot on a heavy I've learned that the students who took notes during their OE were nearly always the better pilots.
It sounds more like an earnest attempt by a capable pilot to make the grade. Unfortunately, not only is he out the cost of the type rating, but now also has a huge blemish on his resume which he'll have to explain at every job interview from now on.
Still, I'd love to hear if anyone else has a different perspective
Last edited by changer; 19th Apr 2008 at 02:33. Reason: clarification
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typical OLD school training, huh, I believe he's one of the guys who havent changed a bit from the time he left Military flight training school, and still believes in the same old flight techniques he's learned from the time airplanes were flown in war....I believe they're still at war with the North....so I'd just say he hasn't been around....
Good Day Mate!!! and good luck on your OE's in KAL or Asiana.
Good Day Mate!!! and good luck on your OE's in KAL or Asiana.
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KAL is KAL
piratepete,
To quote an old line training instructor I once had..."All I'm say'in...."
KAL has a well deserved reputation and history and any "career" professional contract pilot would know. Their modus operandi, both in training and on the line is well known.
Sun Sue (not sure of the spelling) in the art of war stated, if you know your enemy better than thy self, you will never suffer a defeat.
So my post stands....do your homework, read theirbooks on theirprocedures, study their(Korean) history, attitudes and culture.
Jezzzz...if I was going to spend the money for them to type me - I'd really make sure I fitted in and openly agree with everything they say (you can have your own mind in private).
Lastly, "pay'in your dues"...if your over there as a means to get that command seat before your really ready for it - you belong in a casino.
The instructors may be ex-Air Force neanderthals but they can spot sweaty palms a mile off.
TWN PPL has alluded to the bottom line - Its their train set......
To quote an old line training instructor I once had..."All I'm say'in...."
KAL has a well deserved reputation and history and any "career" professional contract pilot would know. Their modus operandi, both in training and on the line is well known.
Sun Sue (not sure of the spelling) in the art of war stated, if you know your enemy better than thy self, you will never suffer a defeat.
So my post stands....do your homework, read theirbooks on theirprocedures, study their(Korean) history, attitudes and culture.
Jezzzz...if I was going to spend the money for them to type me - I'd really make sure I fitted in and openly agree with everything they say (you can have your own mind in private).
Lastly, "pay'in your dues"...if your over there as a means to get that command seat before your really ready for it - you belong in a casino.
The instructors may be ex-Air Force neanderthals but they can spot sweaty palms a mile off.
TWN PPL has alluded to the bottom line - Its their train set......
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FO Cokebottle , You are right on the money. Read their books, know their procedures, try to get along.
In reference to the KAL candidate [ex-Delta] who failed. Probably
wasn't a good idea to request an instructor change, as a mandatory
instructor change happens half-way through OE training anyway. Similarly,if I was to request an instructor change at Delta, I would be on
a "watch-list" as well.
Just because he had a good flying record at Delta, is irrelevent.
Coming in with a good attitude, doing your homework, and forgetting
where you came from [it's not Delta] is the key to success.
In reference to the KAL candidate [ex-Delta] who failed. Probably
wasn't a good idea to request an instructor change, as a mandatory
instructor change happens half-way through OE training anyway. Similarly,if I was to request an instructor change at Delta, I would be on
a "watch-list" as well.
Just because he had a good flying record at Delta, is irrelevent.
Coming in with a good attitude, doing your homework, and forgetting
where you came from [it's not Delta] is the key to success.
Last edited by 54fighting; 19th Apr 2008 at 18:50.
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Korean Air B-777 Dec 3, 2007 training class
54fighting and FO Cockbottle you are incorrect. There was no instructor change scheduled for my training. I was scheduled for the same instructor all the way through OE. I have the printouts to prove it. As far as my prior employment at Delta is concerned, an instructor change would probably not be necessary in the first place as I have never run into an abusive instructor that taught his own techniques. If it was required, as with a few friends, it was done with no questions asked and no repercussions.
Your posts were way off base and not in touch with reality. I am the author of the excerpt (the original report is 8 pages long) of the KAL training report that was posted on this web site by someone else and it is true in every sense. My class was subjected to the most horrendous nontraining environment anyone has ever experienced. I know how to "get along" and present a good image. I wasn't born yesterday. It had nothing to do with that. I also know the books inside and out.
In the future I suggest you stick to topics you know something about instead of misleading readers for some political reasons. Do you work for KAL management? What was the purpose of your post?
Your posts were way off base and not in touch with reality. I am the author of the excerpt (the original report is 8 pages long) of the KAL training report that was posted on this web site by someone else and it is true in every sense. My class was subjected to the most horrendous nontraining environment anyone has ever experienced. I know how to "get along" and present a good image. I wasn't born yesterday. It had nothing to do with that. I also know the books inside and out.
In the future I suggest you stick to topics you know something about instead of misleading readers for some political reasons. Do you work for KAL management? What was the purpose of your post?
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Asian culture is all about remembering whats in the bookand not arguing with your boss. Once your tranings done, u can relax (besides pointing out their mistakes). Luckily its not practised anymore here in south. rather than testing, we conduct training and discussion.
cantdance, is it true, the sims are conducted by foreigners while Line training by Koreans? How 'bad' is their english? Also, do they fly all the time because they can't do radio call because of their bad english?
cantdance, is it true, the sims are conducted by foreigners while Line training by Koreans? How 'bad' is their english? Also, do they fly all the time because they can't do radio call because of their bad english?
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Can'tdance,
Happened to catch your ranting & raving in the crewroom at the ICN Hyatt Hotel. Kind of pathetic to watch.
I'm curious as to why you are screaming for your freebie tickets on KAL, to fly your family to Thailand. And the next breath, you are screaming that KAL is one of the most dangerous airlines in the world [this
from your own 8 page text]. You sure you want to fly KAL???
Good luck straightening out that logic.
Now that you have time. Good luck with the dance lessons.
Happened to catch your ranting & raving in the crewroom at the ICN Hyatt Hotel. Kind of pathetic to watch.
I'm curious as to why you are screaming for your freebie tickets on KAL, to fly your family to Thailand. And the next breath, you are screaming that KAL is one of the most dangerous airlines in the world [this
from your own 8 page text]. You sure you want to fly KAL???
Good luck straightening out that logic.
Now that you have time. Good luck with the dance lessons.
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Lottery!
It is exactly what was written about KAL here: it's just a big lottery.
It's not about your abilities, experience level, airmanship etc. It depends only on the mood of the clown of the day, if their kimmchy was good or not.
Too sad an otherwise good airline still empowers some really sick bastards to judge who's good or not for them. I know about at least 10 excellent professionals, with all possible credentials on experience, instructors, checkairmen etc that bozos failed for nothing, while guys below average passed and are happy (?) there.
My recomendation is: do not risk your present job for an outfit like this, or, at the best, take a leave of abscence if you really want to try.
They are not serious.
It's not about your abilities, experience level, airmanship etc. It depends only on the mood of the clown of the day, if their kimmchy was good or not.
Too sad an otherwise good airline still empowers some really sick bastards to judge who's good or not for them. I know about at least 10 excellent professionals, with all possible credentials on experience, instructors, checkairmen etc that bozos failed for nothing, while guys below average passed and are happy (?) there.
My recomendation is: do not risk your present job for an outfit like this, or, at the best, take a leave of abscence if you really want to try.
They are not serious.
