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KOREAN AIR expat pilots?

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KOREAN AIR expat pilots?

Old 9th May 2020, 09:45
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
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Eating hot pockets has already caused a pandemic..... Obesity.

It kills a lot more yanks than the bat flu ever will.
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Old 21st May 2020, 18:50
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
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For anyone keeping score, KAL pilots were informed today that "with a heavy heart we decide to extend the LWOP for all expat crew members until conditions improve". This, in spite of reports that locals are flying 100 hours hard time on certain fleets.
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Old 21st May 2020, 23:04
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Hard to believe the local pilots are even close to 100 hard hrs . Overall % of expats ?
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Old 22nd May 2020, 04:15
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fatbus View Post
Hard to believe the local pilots are even close to 100 hard hrs . Overall % of expats ?
This is all unofficial information, of course, just cockpit talk passed along by the locals to the expats that have been tossed aside. And these are hours on the 777, not all fleets. Additionally, word from these same sources is 48 of KAL's 56 777's (pax and freighters) are flying. Supposedly, Korean Air is faring just fine by hauling freight. As for pilot percentages on the 777, in February there were 351 Korean captains and 135 expat captains, whatever percentage that works out to be. Clearly KAL can use expats on the fleet but, hey! Why not abuse the locals while keeping the expats on the street?! The airplanes keep flying! It's a daily-double for management!
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Old 22nd May 2020, 22:22
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by motley flight crue View Post
Spanish flu (not from Spain) Rocky Mountain fever, Hendra virus, Ebola. All named after places. Wake up flightleader. So sick of PC crap these days. Why is calling a flu from China racist?
Well said!
(As you know, it's only 'racist' if a remark has been made against someone who is NOT of a Caucasian race. Not racist at all if the same [kind of] remark by a non-Caucasian is made against the Caucasian!)
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Old 23rd May 2020, 07:00
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
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Expats pilots have never been liked by the locals in KAL.
Although the huge reduction in insurance fees allowed thanks to their presence, and the direct support available in terms of scheduling In march the unions negotiated with the CEO An “exit strategy” of the expat workforce, and we are now at stage 2.
Next step is going to be “we do regret to inform you....”
very sad that most of us didn’t see this coming .....
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Old 24th May 2020, 17:19
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: A land far, far away
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I think most of us knew it was a huge risk and probable eventuality. We chose instead to ignore some of that reality and make the best of the situation. Itís still was (is?) the best commuting contract in the airline biz.

What you state above is heresy. Yes, about 10% of the force donít like us, maybe another 20-30% have been brainwashed to dislike us as well, but the larger part of the group prefer to fly with us, as our CRM skills are evolved and we are generally more team focused and kinder to the FOs.

Reality is we are a perfect workforce for KAL, on the margin. If they need us, great, bring us in and fly us, if not, send us home to sit on our hands. Another reality in aviation, the retirements hit fast and hard over the next 10 years. The more pilots that get brushed aside, the harder this is going to be on airlines in the middle of the 20s, when there is absolutely no pool of qualified applicants. Especially if the terms and conditions erode throughout this period, as I fully suspect. Smart management wonít see this as an opportunity, theyíll be wise enough to realize whatís further ahead of them and treat the pilots as the professionals they are.

But for now, itís a waiting game. The well managed will prosper in the coming years, the poorly managed will flounder or fail. We will see what comes of KAL and the others in Korea.
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Old 25th May 2020, 17:46
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
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Totally agree with you about the mid 20’s. Unfortunately management do not think like that. It’s always me, me and me. Cut as much as I can now, make my bonus NOW. We don’t know what tomorrow holds. By the mid 20’s they could be retired somewhere on some tropical island.....
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Old 26th May 2020, 01:10
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Korea
Posts: 6
I donít think KAL understands how much planning is required to bring crew back as I think this will be the first time in a very long time they will have to recall pilots.

It was easy to kick everyone to the curb but with such a strained training system they are going to hit a major bottleneck. We all know very well how long it takes to train crew in normal times! There is no way they can bring 350+ pilots back in one month and itís probably just starting to dawn on them.

Think how busy it was up until March. I heard the guys over 60 (Korean and expat) might not get renewed so that will really put a strain even on the June schedule increase let alone looking ahead to the end of the year.

KALís 2020 Q1 public financial statement outlook and plan calls to ďproactively manage supply in preparation for demand recoveryĒand ďsecure long term growth potential.Ē

Proactive doesnít mean wait for demand then hope to catch up. They want to be ready to respond to a positive trending market, even a slow recovery.

I would hate to be bowing down to the Chairman or CEO explaining how much I saved booting the expats out but unable to crew aircraft to their plans because I didnít consider how much planning was required to recall them.

On that topic, no CEO or Chairman negotiates directly with any pilots union for crewing, so get the idea out of your head. We would have been tossed in March with 41 aircraft flying under force majeure. There are now 111 aircraft flying, all public info.

With half the 747 fleet parked, why did KAL keep 22 expat captains in Seoul?

The trend is towards a slow recovery but will take serious forward planning for recalling pilots. IĎm cautiously optimistic just looking at the numbers but who knows for sure.

See everyone in the lobby at 6
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Old 26th May 2020, 07:33
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
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Originally Posted by Craic Ore View Post
I think most of us knew it was a huge risk and probable eventuality. We chose instead to ignore some of that reality and make the best of the situation. Itís still was (is?) the best commuting contract in the airline biz.

Not really sure about What you mean here.....signing for a contractor job has always had a relative risk of losing your income without a protection, but the lack of ethics shown by the korean managements, together with a complete and disappointing behavior by the agencies was a major disaster.

What you state above is heresy. Yes, about 10% of the force donít like us, maybe another 20-30% have been brainwashed to dislike us as well, but the larger part of the group prefer to fly with us, as our CRM skills are evolved and we are generally more team focused and kinder to the FOs.

You call this an heresy, but I believe you should really do a rain check: what you called evolved CRM skilled for them is just a mere opportunity to reaffirm their individuality in a company , or more widely speaking a society, which is based on seniority and rank with no mercy. We are not welcomed in that country and the last covid crisis showed it really hard: there is no help for foreigners, even if married with koreans....

Reality is we are a perfect workforce for KAL, on the margin. If they need us, great, bring us in and fly us, if not, send us home to sit on our hands. Another reality in aviation, the retirements hit fast and hard over the next 10 years. The more pilots that get brushed aside, the harder this is going to be on airlines in the middle of the 20s, when there is absolutely no pool of qualified applicants. Especially if the terms and conditions erode throughout this period, as I fully suspect. Smart management wonít see this as an opportunity, theyíll be wise enough to realize whatís further ahead of them and treat the pilots as the professionals they are.

But for now, itís a waiting game. The well managed will prosper in the coming years, the poorly managed will flounder or fail. We will see what comes of KAL and the others in Korea.
I agree, letís wait and see what happen, and please, let us know your insight when your license and qualification will be expired, and you will not receive even a pat on your shoulder for all these years hard work.
By the way, what is your family saying about korean pilots receiving 70% of their salary for sitting on their hands compared to your ....nothing?

All the best to all of us, we really deserve it...
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Old 26th May 2020, 16:01
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: neverland
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BFB, I really like your post, it is wise and balanced, and of course is based on a direct observation of korean air standard way of approaching problem solving.
i would like to add to your script a general bad feeling about the impact of MOLIT decision regarding the training requirements: if for a triple7 skipper just flying the week before for emirates took 4 to 5 months in times of full availability of the training structure, how long is going to take to retrain almost 400 pilots needing on average 2 sim and 2 sectors plus a line check?
I hope who took this decision will get also held responsible for the lack of crew UNLESS, in this meanwhile are training people from 4 eng to twins........then all the math makes sense.....
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Old 26th May 2020, 21:46
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: A land far, far away
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I think most of us knew it was a huge risk and probable eventuality. We chose instead to ignore some of that reality and make the best of the situation. It’s still was (is?) the best commuting contract in the airline biz.

Not really sure about What you mean here.....signing for a contractor job has always had a relative risk of losing your income without a protection, but the lack of ethics shown by the korean managements, together with a complete and disappointing behavior by the agencies was a major disaster.

I think weíre on the same page here. The only difference I see is that I fully expected their response whereas you expected the KAL management to manage this/us well and the agencies to care about us and fight for us? Please advise me when there was ever evidence that this was going to occur as theyíve only shown the opposite?

From day one, you learn 1. KAL FLT OPS management is in it for themselves and the power, not doing the right thing 2. The agencies do next to zero for us.

I donít understand why you think a crisis would make any difference? Theyíre showing their true stripes, which is what everyone pretty much knew would happen
.


What you state above is heresy. Yes, about 10% of the force don’t like us, maybe another 20-30% have been brainwashed to dislike us as well, but the larger part of the group prefer to fly with us, as our CRM skills are evolved and we are generally more team focused and kinder to the FOs.

You call this an heresy, but I believe you should really do a rain check: what you called evolved CRM skilled for them is just a mere opportunity to reaffirm their individuality in a company , or more widely speaking a society, which is based on seniority and rank with no mercy. We are not welcomed in that country and the last covid crisis showed it really hard: there is no help for foreigners, even if married with koreans....

With over a decade in KAL, I fully understand what youíre saying. My ďrealityĒ (?) check isnít required, Iím pretty sure I 100% get the culture and where we fit into that. And I am no fan of the culture, but I keep my eyes on whatís important to me - the time off, the salary and lifestyle it gives me. Iím under no illusions as to my rights or importance to KAL.

Reality is we are a perfect workforce for KAL, on the margin. If they need us, great, bring us in and fly us, if not, send us home to sit on our hands. Another reality in aviation, the retirements hit fast and hard over the next 10 years. The more pilots that get brushed aside, the harder this is going to be on airlines in the middle of the 20s, when there is absolutely no pool of qualified applicants. Especially if the terms and conditions erode throughout this period, as I fully suspect. Smart management won’t see this as an opportunity, they’ll be wise enough to realize what’s further ahead of them and treat the pilots as the professionals they are.

But for now, it’s a waiting game. The well managed will prosper in the coming years.........

Originally Posted by Flyoveriraq View Post
I agree, letís wait and see what happen, and please, let us know your insight when your license and qualification will be expired, and you will not receive even a pat on your shoulder for all these years hard work.
By the way, what is your family saying about korean pilots receiving 70% of their salary for sitting on their hands compared to your ....nothing?

All the best to all of us, we really deserve it...
Once again, I think we are 99% on the same page. However, i feel youíre painting me as delusional, whereas I feel Iím more in touch with the reality of the situation.
Did you expect KAL to treat us like employees? Did you expect the Korean govt to send cheques overseas to take care of you?

Should they at least take care of us on some level, as workers which have contributed our time, life, health, etc., to the company? HELL YEAH. Would I ever have expected them to? Nope.

My point, ultimately, is that we know what weíre getting ourselves into or putting ourselves through by choosing to stay. To expect a caring attitude and perfection from a corporation which has always shown the opposite, seems out of touch to me. KAL is a poorly capitalized airline that is on the edge during this time. And Koreans only care about Koreans.

These are all known facts. Itís just a matter of how you process and cope with it.

As for losing currency, itís going to be world wide. Iím in the throws of shifting careers, as I donít think KAL, aviation and my health, are worth it anymore. If I do happen to go back, Iíll is it as a time to set up to pivot out. Regardless of what happens, itís just not in the Koreans to treat us well, so why expose yourself to this anymore? If youíre disappointed with how this is gone down, youíll be disappointed with the next few years as they stumble through it.

Good luck, weíre all going to need some of that going forward.
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Old 1st Jun 2020, 13:51
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
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As I understand it, contracts are not being renewed. It doesn’t matter if you’re on 20 years of service as an expat or on a first time contract, if its up for renewal, the company are not currently extending. Everyone else is on leave without pay. It was initially 3 month, now for the foreseeable future.

Because of the above, there will unlikly be any ‘ we regret to inform you” letters. The company are culling the numbers every month through contact completions. .
Of course, they can rehire those guys out of contract, but it will be on a 1st year deal, that may well be significantly revised downwards, by the time they start taking on crews again.
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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 03:54
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Not true, they are offering renewals even to the over 60s.
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 05:37
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
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Originally Posted by one for the road View Post
Not true, they are offering renewals even to the over 60s.
No, it IS true! Some guys whose contracts expired in May were offered renewals but I know for a fact, as I've talked to the individuals, pilots whose contracts expired in June and July were NOT renewed. I have no idea the strategy in this other than as HighFIve says and they can reduce the expat pilot force month-by-month and retain some pilots in case they ever need some quick support. A story was written today about KAL making $72m operating profit in the April-June quarter, the Cho's and their lackeys will certainly be celebrating receiving some nice bonuses soon! Hey, there's no reason to pay a bunch of foreigners when they can work the locals to the bone and still cash fat checks. Now that the Cho's cannot smuggle duty-free goods and illegal workers into the country, they have to make sure they can still buy vacation properties.
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 07:27
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Korea
Posts: 6
Iím getting to the point where I honestly donít care if they call me back. I didnít mind the job when things were normal, it served itís purpose and canít think of a better bunch to have beers with at the VY.

This has shown the side we all knew about but managed to keep professional and focused on the big picture.

The silence of the agencies, not even a basic acknowledgement that they are aware of anything and no communication from KAL is starting to really grind on everyone.

Compared to how EK and QR have recently dealt with their redundancies, KAL officially treats expats the worst.

Iím really hoping to see everyone again but unless they come up with some clear direction soon of what is going to happen, Iím happily going to plan B.

Try to enjoy the time off everyone and while Iíll be grateful for a call back, Iíll only come back to get my exit strategy in order.
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 23:06
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
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Originally Posted by BeeforBeef View Post
I’m getting to the point where I honestly don’t care if they call me back. I didn’t mind the job when things were normal, it served it’s purpose and can’t think of a better bunch to have beers with at the VY.

This has shown the side we all knew about but managed to keep professional and focused on the big picture.

The silence of the agencies, not even a basic acknowledgement that they are aware of anything and no communication from KAL is starting to really grind on everyone.

Compared to how EK and QR have recently dealt with their redundancies, KAL officially treats expats the worst.

I’m really hoping to see everyone again but unless they come up with some clear direction soon of what is going to happen, I’m happily going to plan B.

Try to enjoy the time off everyone and while I’ll be grateful for a call back, I’ll only come back to get my exit strategy in order.
I do agree on every single word you said.
Korean air is finally showing his true face after a full year of bullshit regarding “there are no foreign captains, we are all korean air captains“
I am sure that in few month there will be more jobs than before and that all of us will actually be happy somewhere else.
I worked in europe and middle east and NEVER SAW SUCH A BAD ATTITUDE from the management.
One of the most disgusting thing is the absurd lack of responsibility shown by the agencies.
I really hope that We decide all together for a legal proceeding as what they are doing has nothing to do with covid19.....
FOI
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 15:24
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Madrid
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Honestly I donīt know what did you expect. Agencies are just middleman that get part of your salary every month, nowadays they are as interested as you are for the operations to resume, otherwise they donīt see a dime. If you are a contract pilot is because company doesnīt want you to be their employee. Not being part of the staff allow them to chop you without any obligation, remember that Korean labour law is quite patronizing.
Foreign pilots in KAL are contracted for two main reasons: To break local pilots strikes and to be a buffer workforce for turbulent times. The first happened December 2016 the second April 2020.
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 15:44
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: neverland
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Are you 100% sure the agencies don’t get paid?
Are you sure that the korean labour law does allow discrimination?
just my imagination maybe.......
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 20:17
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Originally Posted by alatriste View Post
Honestly I donīt know what did you expect. Agencies are just middleman that get part of your salary every month, nowadays they are as interested as you are for the operations to resume, otherwise they donīt see a dime. If you are a contract pilot is because company doesnīt want you to be their employee. Not being part of the staff allow them to chop you without any obligation, remember that Korean labour law is quite patronizing.
Foreign pilots in KAL are contracted for two main reasons: To break local pilots strikes and to be a buffer workforce for turbulent times. The first happened December 2016 the second April 2020.
"To break local pilots strikes". You mean, scabs?
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