P2F Scheme
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You just don't det it bamboo, along with the rest of you chaps who have less flying time logged, than I do holding over the Barkeay VOR. I've experienced T & Cs with carriers in my home country degrade to such miserable levels. I chose alternative means of employment in my field rather than accepting cut rate conditions.
Their are Individuals, like myself, that find flying revenue operations for free, let alone paying to fly on such flights
downright repugnant. Like an addict, they always justify the use of dope, "one more fix".
How many P2fer paid for a second go, with the scheme, since they couldn't get a job after the maturation of their contracts?.
It is a victory for pilots obtaining their jobs through legitimate means knowing that our letter writing campaign results in even one P2Fer being refused gainful employment due to fraudulent means.
Answer this question Lingdee and Stalker... Would either of you honestly represent your self before this form and be genuinely happy to learn that a mate of yours, that worked for his hours as a CFI, charter pilot, with a family to boot, was turned away by a carrier, because preferred to save training, compensation, and benefits costs by hiring a P2Fer? Would you be willing to layout the 30,000 Quid so your friend would be successful at the next selection?
Folks... at the end of the days the P2fer is an exclusive club, which I and my colleagues are proud to be discriminated from.
.
Their are Individuals, like myself, that find flying revenue operations for free, let alone paying to fly on such flights
downright repugnant. Like an addict, they always justify the use of dope, "one more fix".How many P2fer paid for a second go, with the scheme, since they couldn't get a job after the maturation of their contracts?.
It is a victory for pilots obtaining their jobs through legitimate means knowing that our letter writing campaign results in even one P2Fer being refused gainful employment due to fraudulent means.
This question is for only those who have not participated in the P2F Scheme?
Folks... at the end of the days the P2fer is an exclusive club, which I and my colleagues are proud to be discriminated from.
.
Last edited by captjns; 30th Nov 2013 at 20:53.
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Stalker, you totally nail it. Most carriers want pilots with 500 hours on type or hours above MTOW above 20 tons. sad to say piston engine hours and to certain extend turboprop hours is as good as useless.
as for captjns, this is a clear example of a selfish pilots who are very naive thinking that he can increase his salary as a Fo by complaining to the airlines to abolish p2f. he may unfortunately be having a "dreamland " hope. here's why.
one of the biggest reason p2f exist is for airline to save cost, save guard themselves and of course to continue to make a profit ( so that there are jobs for pilots )
1) you expect an airline to sponsor your rating for FREE even if you are not local - yeah feel free to run away after you get your free hours and rating on top of that your fat salary
2) you expect to be invited to an interview FREE - yeah, the airline has to pay your tickets , your food, pay the salary for the HR and recruiter, pay for the sim, pay for the hotel and venue ( no problem, if you fail, someone else is paying and you get a free holiday )
3) with p2f not being around which in turns means no business for TRTO ( dont forget they paid millions for the sim, salary for maintenance crew, rental, electricity and miscellaneous. must be FREE for you since you are a GA pilot and since you go through the hard way the world owes you a living. a lot of TRE not only do not have the chance to have their t and c upgraded but in fact have to lose their job too
4) agent or broker also have to work FREE for you in order to arrange a job interview for you and you cant be bothered with their time, staff salaries, business expenses and so on and so fouth
in other words everything must be FREE because so long money is involved in a pilot recruitment, it's p2f.
all the above so that our mr captjns could get an improve in t and c , and to hell with those cpl jobless pilots.
so for your own selfish gain, the rest of the above have to work for free and take all the risk? come on,grow up man.
you got to be smarter than that hoping for an end of p2f and to have your t and c improve as a pilot ( which is peanuts to businessman ).
If you are so smart, you should be behind sitting in first class sipping your dom and be served, not as a " driver " driving the F and J class pax around the world closing their multi milliona dollar business.
as for captjns, this is a clear example of a selfish pilots who are very naive thinking that he can increase his salary as a Fo by complaining to the airlines to abolish p2f. he may unfortunately be having a "dreamland " hope. here's why.
one of the biggest reason p2f exist is for airline to save cost, save guard themselves and of course to continue to make a profit ( so that there are jobs for pilots )
1) you expect an airline to sponsor your rating for FREE even if you are not local - yeah feel free to run away after you get your free hours and rating on top of that your fat salary
2) you expect to be invited to an interview FREE - yeah, the airline has to pay your tickets , your food, pay the salary for the HR and recruiter, pay for the sim, pay for the hotel and venue ( no problem, if you fail, someone else is paying and you get a free holiday )
3) with p2f not being around which in turns means no business for TRTO ( dont forget they paid millions for the sim, salary for maintenance crew, rental, electricity and miscellaneous. must be FREE for you since you are a GA pilot and since you go through the hard way the world owes you a living. a lot of TRE not only do not have the chance to have their t and c upgraded but in fact have to lose their job too
4) agent or broker also have to work FREE for you in order to arrange a job interview for you and you cant be bothered with their time, staff salaries, business expenses and so on and so fouth
in other words everything must be FREE because so long money is involved in a pilot recruitment, it's p2f.
all the above so that our mr captjns could get an improve in t and c , and to hell with those cpl jobless pilots.
so for your own selfish gain, the rest of the above have to work for free and take all the risk? come on,grow up man.
you got to be smarter than that hoping for an end of p2f and to have your t and c improve as a pilot ( which is peanuts to businessman ).
If you are so smart, you should be behind sitting in first class sipping your dom and be served, not as a " driver " driving the F and J class pax around the world closing their multi milliona dollar business.
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Gtr21 says
Looks like the letters to C/P and D/Os are working.
I hope to read additional testimonials about failed plight of the P2Fer
@stalker if you believe p2f has a future you need your head checked. The amount of people and companies saying no to p2f pilots are growing day by day the latest being one that recruited p2f pilots in europe .
My frienda actually rejected due to fact he was a p2f pilot. and thats not hearsay that was from the mouth of my friend and incase you were wondering its an airline for the middle east.
My frienda actually rejected due to fact he was a p2f pilot. and thats not hearsay that was from the mouth of my friend and incase you were wondering its an airline for the middle east.
I hope to read additional testimonials about failed plight of the P2Fer
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And there you have it folks from Lingdee... a lad who believes in unicorns and pussy willows
. Could Lingdee be a recruiter for the P2Fer? His diatribe sure reads like he could be.
The lad conveniently omits facts about cadet sponsored programs many airlines offer for those who have a mere CPL/IR/ME.
That said, hard work, (not tugging at mommy's apron strings, or daddy's shirt tails to write the check) along with discipline, one can join such a program.
Paying for a type rating? Not my first choice. I prefer training bonds that airlines provide, which is fair enough. The type rating is the property of the pilot and is portable for employment where most ICAO member states accept the EASA or FAA type rating. Cost for the T/R, along with cost for initial pilot (PPL, CPL, ME, IR, etc.) training will be recouped over the years. But paying for line training?
Definite no no.
P2F experience is owned by the pilot, but accepted by very few carriers.
There is no justification whatsoever to justify the P2F scheme. To all the Einsteins out there... did you ever wonder why bottom feeder airlines such as Lion Air require 500 hours on type to get hired? Think about it... its not hard to figure it out.
Now, again to the same Einsteins out there. Ever figure out why airlines such as LH, CX, KAL don't require 500 hours on type to get hired? Again think about it... its not too hard to figure out either.
. Could Lingdee be a recruiter for the P2Fer? His diatribe sure reads like he could be.The lad conveniently omits facts about cadet sponsored programs many airlines offer for those who have a mere CPL/IR/ME.
That said, hard work, (not tugging at mommy's apron strings, or daddy's shirt tails to write the check) along with discipline, one can join such a program.
Paying for a type rating? Not my first choice. I prefer training bonds that airlines provide, which is fair enough. The type rating is the property of the pilot and is portable for employment where most ICAO member states accept the EASA or FAA type rating. Cost for the T/R, along with cost for initial pilot (PPL, CPL, ME, IR, etc.) training will be recouped over the years. But paying for line training?
Definite no no.P2F experience is owned by the pilot, but accepted by very few carriers.
There is no justification whatsoever to justify the P2F scheme. To all the Einsteins out there... did you ever wonder why bottom feeder airlines such as Lion Air require 500 hours on type to get hired? Think about it... its not hard to figure it out.
Now, again to the same Einsteins out there. Ever figure out why airlines such as LH, CX, KAL don't require 500 hours on type to get hired? Again think about it... its not too hard to figure out either.
Last edited by captjns; 30th Nov 2013 at 20:48.
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Stalker your Just a plonker and a want to be I'm the same with Captjns if I fly with paytofly guys they are my office and radio bitch, and that's all they deserve to be, and will never gain my respect as a aviator as all they are is just pilots. When they turn up unshaven sunglasses and with a huge ego they remind me every minute why there my bitch. Us professional pilots can do that, company can't.
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Stalker your last comment shows you have no ideal, same as most p2f pilots, no foot and rudder skills, no basic knowledge on basic skills, once I turn everything off back to raw data they turn into babies sucking from nipple so good to watch, there just pilots not aviators like the rest of us 
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Well at the end of the day the P2Fers do need a separate section within PPrune. They can communicate among themselves and praise themselves on the back because they are making great strides and contributions for T&Cs
for future commercial pilots.
The irony of it all is that Stalker, Lindgee and other P2Fers have yet to chime in as how they are contributing to the profession. still waiting how paying for line training contributes to the industry. How it provides a level playing field for those who have more flying time than those willing to pay the bucks to play Buck Rogers to sit in the cockpit.
Oh the airlines will chime in with the spin... lower training costs... higher salaries and bonuses for senior management.
Oh the agencies should chime in too... money for the owners and agents.
Thank goodness for the airlines beyond South East Asia that don't sponsor, nor condone P2F schemes.
Stalker and Lingdee have still have not addressed the fact that airlines DO have cadet programs and DO hire cadets with zero time on type, without requirements of payment. the P2Fers have, criticized, which they are entitled to, me regarding my opinions on P2F schemes and participants. To those who stick it out, accumulate hours by instructing, flying missionary work, charter, any other worth while means of accumulating hours to secure their job with the airlines, you will have my respect. To the rest... well, we'll leave that be.
Yes, PPrune is a good and fair site where all are entitled to post their opinions, provided however, such posts are in good taste, and are factual without conjecture.
for future commercial pilots.
The irony of it all is that Stalker, Lindgee and other P2Fers have yet to chime in as how they are contributing to the profession. still waiting how paying for line training contributes to the industry. How it provides a level playing field for those who have more flying time than those willing to pay the bucks to play Buck Rogers to sit in the cockpit.
Oh the airlines will chime in with the spin... lower training costs... higher salaries and bonuses for senior management.
Oh the agencies should chime in too... money for the owners and agents.
Thank goodness for the airlines beyond South East Asia that don't sponsor, nor condone P2F schemes.
Stalker and Lingdee have still have not addressed the fact that airlines DO have cadet programs and DO hire cadets with zero time on type, without requirements of payment. the P2Fers have, criticized, which they are entitled to, me regarding my opinions on P2F schemes and participants. To those who stick it out, accumulate hours by instructing, flying missionary work, charter, any other worth while means of accumulating hours to secure their job with the airlines, you will have my respect. To the rest... well, we'll leave that be.
Yes, PPrune is a good and fair site where all are entitled to post their opinions, provided however, such posts are in good taste, and are factual without conjecture.
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@Stalker,
From looking at your previous posts you seem to have very limited knowledge on the industry, please refrain from making any more comments, you are just making a mockery of this thread.
It's a travesty that you advocate for pay to fly, there are jobs out there for the 200 hour CPL, people just have to think outside the box, they have to spend an enormous amount of time networking and willing to relocate and do hard work!
Pay to fly schemes are run by sketchy agents that couldn't care less if you get your line training, they are there to take your cash and will not assist in anyway if things don't go according to plan. I've had one of them tell me " airline life is not for those that write on pprune, the good students are the ones that pay , we are hear to help those that pay "
You say you flew a king air in Africa ? If this is true you should even more reason to be disgruntled when you see a 200 hour kid pay his way through the right seat of a transport category aircraft .
It's the kids that wear four bars and a uniform to fly a 172 who are enrolled in these schemes , they are cocky, they think the world owes them something and mostly they have very poor knowledge and hands and feet.
I've seen some of these pay to flyers who couldn't even read approach plates, one was even told by the airline they would give him 500 hours but he could never be the pilot flying and always had a safety pilot for every sector , they charged him an additional 10,000 euros ontop of the 38,000 euros he already paid!
It's people like you that endorse this sort of behaviour that have caused terms and conditions to deteriorate .
From looking at your previous posts you seem to have very limited knowledge on the industry, please refrain from making any more comments, you are just making a mockery of this thread.
It's a travesty that you advocate for pay to fly, there are jobs out there for the 200 hour CPL, people just have to think outside the box, they have to spend an enormous amount of time networking and willing to relocate and do hard work!
Pay to fly schemes are run by sketchy agents that couldn't care less if you get your line training, they are there to take your cash and will not assist in anyway if things don't go according to plan. I've had one of them tell me " airline life is not for those that write on pprune, the good students are the ones that pay , we are hear to help those that pay "
You say you flew a king air in Africa ? If this is true you should even more reason to be disgruntled when you see a 200 hour kid pay his way through the right seat of a transport category aircraft .
It's the kids that wear four bars and a uniform to fly a 172 who are enrolled in these schemes , they are cocky, they think the world owes them something and mostly they have very poor knowledge and hands and feet.
I've seen some of these pay to flyers who couldn't even read approach plates, one was even told by the airline they would give him 500 hours but he could never be the pilot flying and always had a safety pilot for every sector , they charged him an additional 10,000 euros ontop of the 38,000 euros he already paid!
It's people like you that endorse this sort of behaviour that have caused terms and conditions to deteriorate .
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Letters to CPs and airlines won't have any effect, just stop writing this crap, ok? I know who went though a P2F scheme and is now flying for NAS.
Even if a pilot pays to fly, the pilot still has to go through skill tests and assessments. If he meets the standards he will pass, if he doesn't he won't. Easy as that...
"Old" pilots are to blame because they did nothing from the top of their well paid jobs when they were still in time to prevent the industry from this race to the bottom. It's the authorities' fault because they did and still are doing nothing to put an end to this, but even if they try, it will not be the solution because a P2F pilot still must go through assessments and exam, as I said earlier. The economic agreement between the candidate and the airline/agency is not a concern to EASA as far as I know.
1500 hours rule in Europe? Not applicable to European aviation.
Even if a pilot pays to fly, the pilot still has to go through skill tests and assessments. If he meets the standards he will pass, if he doesn't he won't. Easy as that...
"Old" pilots are to blame because they did nothing from the top of their well paid jobs when they were still in time to prevent the industry from this race to the bottom. It's the authorities' fault because they did and still are doing nothing to put an end to this, but even if they try, it will not be the solution because a P2F pilot still must go through assessments and exam, as I said earlier. The economic agreement between the candidate and the airline/agency is not a concern to EASA as far as I know.
1500 hours rule in Europe? Not applicable to European aviation.
Last edited by RedBullGaveMeWings; 1st Dec 2013 at 15:46.
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Red Bull... Last I checked, NAS is not of the same par as EK, EY, LH, CX, BA, AF, VX, KLM just to name a few.
That said, guess the letter writing campaign can't hurt to ensure that those who obtained their flying experience though legitimate means isn't hurting too much.
I am here to write that colleagues who've gotten on with their carriers with hard work without writing a check for 30,000 quid for 500 hours of right seat warming time do not consider their P2Fer counterparts as their colleagues, contrary to what you, Stalker, and Lingdee post.
At the end of the Redbull, you, myself, and all that post on PPrune or other web boards are entitled to their opinions.... don't you agree?
That said, guess the letter writing campaign can't hurt to ensure that those who obtained their flying experience though legitimate means isn't hurting too much.
I am here to write that colleagues who've gotten on with their carriers with hard work without writing a check for 30,000 quid for 500 hours of right seat warming time do not consider their P2Fer counterparts as their colleagues, contrary to what you, Stalker, and Lingdee post.
At the end of the Redbull, you, myself, and all that post on PPrune or other web boards are entitled to their opinions.... don't you agree?
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Red Bull... Last I checked, NAS is not of the same par as EK, EY, LH, CX, BA, AF, VX, KLM just to name a few.
That said, guess the letter writing campaign can't hurt to ensure that those who obtained their flying experience though legitimate means isn't hurting too much.
I am here to write that colleagues who've gotten on with their carriers with hard work without writing a check for 30,000 quid for 500 hours of right seat warming time do not consider their P2Fer counterparts as their colleagues, contrary to what you, Stalker, and Lingdee post.
At the end of the Redbull, you, myself, and all that post on PPrune or other web boards are entitled to their opinions.... don't you agree?
That said, guess the letter writing campaign can't hurt to ensure that those who obtained their flying experience though legitimate means isn't hurting too much.
I am here to write that colleagues who've gotten on with their carriers with hard work without writing a check for 30,000 quid for 500 hours of right seat warming time do not consider their P2Fer counterparts as their colleagues, contrary to what you, Stalker, and Lingdee post.
At the end of the Redbull, you, myself, and all that post on PPrune or other web boards are entitled to their opinions.... don't you agree?
Let me make sure you get this straight: I've just started flight training, I don't know what I will do afterwards, but for sure I will not stay at home. I've been reading PPRuNe for almost 3 years now and then signed up. I, like you, am against P2F and I am of the same your idea that the old career path made up of hard work in remote areas and is instructing the best way to get to the airline, but we also have to face the reality that without hours on jets or on >20 tonnes MTOW aircraft chances of getting a job on an airliner are very slim. After all there have been cadet programs for decades and so far it has just worked fine in Europe.
If I don't do that, somebody else will take my place, there's nothing we can do unless there's a law set by the ICAO worldwide, which to be honest I think is highly unlikely to happen.
I am looking into the instructing career which is highly rewarding (I would do that anyway), but it seems to me that it is almost impossible to pursue because of the stupid rules set by the EASA people that don't know what they are doing...
What I really think is dangerous in terms of safety for the industry is the MPL concept, but that's another story.
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It's 2 sides of the coin and both have valid arguments .
1) fresh pilots will do whatever it takes to collect hours , after all there is no turning back unless they want to burn their usd 80k cpl blue license or another usd 20-30k for their TR, if they don't do it, other thousands of pilots worldwide will do it. as they say piloting is a dog eat dog world
2) The other one will be worried on the t and c and if others are collecting valuable jet time, they know they can never be promoted or jump to an airline which do not like non jet time hours. therefore they are stuck flying thier current gig and earn peanuts.
With so many success stories of p2f going to world class airline ( see below taken from another thread ) : -
Others did pass screenings, did new Typeratings, did well in groundschool and moved into other airlines :
- Turkish Airlines , about 40-50 guys joined (or are joining) THY in the past 8 months
- Scoot has 10+ guys
- Qatar has a fair share (15+) of Ex-Lion guys as F.O. 777 or F.O. A320 operating
- Hong Kong Airlines / Hong Kong Express has about 10+
- FlyDubai has 10+ on 737
- Jet2.com has 10+ on 737
- British Airways 6+ on Widebody second officers mostly
- Primera Air 3+ on the 737
- Oman Air 3+ on 737
- ArkeFly has 8+ on the 767 and 737
- Etihad 4+ on multiple widebody's
- Norwegian has 10+ on the 737's
- Emirates is having Lion Air guys
- Cathay Pacific 2+ as S.O.
- Air Baltic 4+
- Ethiopian 2+
- Garuda had 10+ guys, but had to lay-off/fire expats two years ago.
- Insel Air
.......etc....etc....
When it comes to airline business, time and money is essential before your competitors kills you and cause to to bankrupt. Most pilot think of the pilot mentality but do not put their shoe as an airline boss .
If you see the list above, why world class airline likes p2f, because to train a pilot from zero or those with a CPL can take anywhere from months to years ( if zero hours ).
Now they have a pilot with hours, just put them in a couple of hours in sim and some ground papers, viola, they are good to fly.
Airline are smart too, they will only chose the best and all the pilots would still have to pass the sim, test and interview.
as mention by captjns, airline like EK, EY, LH, CX, BA, AF, VX, KLM , he was wrong by saying they do not take p2f. in fact if you have the hours and you are a local citizen, pass the recruitment stages, you are done.
as that is exactly the above airline which we all know will never do p2f ( national pride and they have the cash to finance training vs a low cost airline ), which is also helping the industry, why?
if a person who wants to pay a cpl, rating , LT and fly in the worst condition and some even with no salary, he is not stupid to do it if he can't taste " success and sweet " after all this sacrifice.
With the above world class taking in so many p2f pilots, those who are already there knows that the time they spend in Indonesia and the decision and risk they took all paid off, indeed very handsomely! The salary they make in all these world class airline easily pay off the money they spend previously.
1) fresh pilots will do whatever it takes to collect hours , after all there is no turning back unless they want to burn their usd 80k cpl blue license or another usd 20-30k for their TR, if they don't do it, other thousands of pilots worldwide will do it. as they say piloting is a dog eat dog world
2) The other one will be worried on the t and c and if others are collecting valuable jet time, they know they can never be promoted or jump to an airline which do not like non jet time hours. therefore they are stuck flying thier current gig and earn peanuts.
With so many success stories of p2f going to world class airline ( see below taken from another thread ) : -
Others did pass screenings, did new Typeratings, did well in groundschool and moved into other airlines :
- Turkish Airlines , about 40-50 guys joined (or are joining) THY in the past 8 months
- Scoot has 10+ guys
- Qatar has a fair share (15+) of Ex-Lion guys as F.O. 777 or F.O. A320 operating
- Hong Kong Airlines / Hong Kong Express has about 10+
- FlyDubai has 10+ on 737
- Jet2.com has 10+ on 737
- British Airways 6+ on Widebody second officers mostly
- Primera Air 3+ on the 737
- Oman Air 3+ on 737
- ArkeFly has 8+ on the 767 and 737
- Etihad 4+ on multiple widebody's
- Norwegian has 10+ on the 737's
- Emirates is having Lion Air guys
- Cathay Pacific 2+ as S.O.
- Air Baltic 4+
- Ethiopian 2+
- Garuda had 10+ guys, but had to lay-off/fire expats two years ago.
- Insel Air
.......etc....etc....
When it comes to airline business, time and money is essential before your competitors kills you and cause to to bankrupt. Most pilot think of the pilot mentality but do not put their shoe as an airline boss .
If you see the list above, why world class airline likes p2f, because to train a pilot from zero or those with a CPL can take anywhere from months to years ( if zero hours ).
Now they have a pilot with hours, just put them in a couple of hours in sim and some ground papers, viola, they are good to fly.
Airline are smart too, they will only chose the best and all the pilots would still have to pass the sim, test and interview.
as mention by captjns, airline like EK, EY, LH, CX, BA, AF, VX, KLM , he was wrong by saying they do not take p2f. in fact if you have the hours and you are a local citizen, pass the recruitment stages, you are done.
as that is exactly the above airline which we all know will never do p2f ( national pride and they have the cash to finance training vs a low cost airline ), which is also helping the industry, why?
if a person who wants to pay a cpl, rating , LT and fly in the worst condition and some even with no salary, he is not stupid to do it if he can't taste " success and sweet " after all this sacrifice.
With the above world class taking in so many p2f pilots, those who are already there knows that the time they spend in Indonesia and the decision and risk they took all paid off, indeed very handsomely! The salary they make in all these world class airline easily pay off the money they spend previously.
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I'm not lying, this kid had both Boeing 737 and an Airbus 320 Type rating, both of them were completed at questionable TRTOs. He didn't know where the minimums were, had no idea what the MSA was , got the autopilot on as quick as he could hoping it would save him.
Ive seen a few others who weren't as bad but had no decision making ability what so ever, they are all so disorganized, no cockpit management, fancy iPad and flight bag but they seem to be all over the place when I ask them to pull out information.
Then there are those that do have good hands and feet but poor attitude, I've seen screaming in the sim, it was an absolute nightmare !
You are hardly ever paying an airline! You are paying a middle man that is usually there to scam you, the public are going to learn soon enough.
Ive seen a few others who weren't as bad but had no decision making ability what so ever, they are all so disorganized, no cockpit management, fancy iPad and flight bag but they seem to be all over the place when I ask them to pull out information.
Then there are those that do have good hands and feet but poor attitude, I've seen screaming in the sim, it was an absolute nightmare !
You are hardly ever paying an airline! You are paying a middle man that is usually there to scam you, the public are going to learn soon enough.
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pfvspnf, taken from the lion thread again,
can you describe if these were P2F as well or are they trained in 'your' category' ?
UPS Crash A306
or
BritAir CRJ7
or
ANA A320 Tailstrike on G/A
or
Air France A330 hard landing
or
Emirates Tailstrike and RWY overrun on Take Off
or
Air France A330 crash over the Atlantic
All mostly human errors I see.... doesn't really only hurt the 'P2F' guys, any more? Guess your not that immortal really Zondaracer or VT-ASM....
so does it means because of the accident above all non p2f pilots are lousy pilots ?
Whether a person paid or do not pay, both sides will have bad apples, same as every other industries.
Plus, even without a TR, a CPL holder will have to do and practise IF during flying school, and how can a person do not know as you point out one example MSA. ( provided it is true ).
come on buddy, if you want to bad mouth the industry, at least provide a better examples.
can you describe if these were P2F as well or are they trained in 'your' category' ?
UPS Crash A306
or
BritAir CRJ7
or
ANA A320 Tailstrike on G/A
or
Air France A330 hard landing
or
Emirates Tailstrike and RWY overrun on Take Off
or
Air France A330 crash over the Atlantic
All mostly human errors I see.... doesn't really only hurt the 'P2F' guys, any more? Guess your not that immortal really Zondaracer or VT-ASM....
so does it means because of the accident above all non p2f pilots are lousy pilots ?
Whether a person paid or do not pay, both sides will have bad apples, same as every other industries.
Plus, even without a TR, a CPL holder will have to do and practise IF during flying school, and how can a person do not know as you point out one example MSA. ( provided it is true ).
come on buddy, if you want to bad mouth the industry, at least provide a better examples.
Join Date: Oct 2013
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The P2F haters assume that pilots simply hand over cash and they sit in the seat - This where they are wrong, its really not that simple.
Do you know I have my deviation print outs from my sim for the last 5 years, RAW DATA approaches
There are 3 things GS DEVIATION LOC DEVIATION AND KIAS DEVIATION, the first 1 is not so good but it gets better and better to the point where the deviation is almost nil! my point being with time you get better and better, so please instead of arguing over who sits in the seat lets promote flight safety first. all those accidents above are real! that's loss of life and it should be in all our interests to support pilots that are flying to be the best they can possibly be and fly safe, trust encouragement reward satisfaction
Do you know I have my deviation print outs from my sim for the last 5 years, RAW DATA approaches
There are 3 things GS DEVIATION LOC DEVIATION AND KIAS DEVIATION, the first 1 is not so good but it gets better and better to the point where the deviation is almost nil! my point being with time you get better and better, so please instead of arguing over who sits in the seat lets promote flight safety first. all those accidents above are real! that's loss of life and it should be in all our interests to support pilots that are flying to be the best they can possibly be and fly safe, trust encouragement reward satisfaction
Last edited by Stalker_; 2nd Dec 2013 at 06:44.
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No skill involved in flying an Airliner?
I've said it once, you are making a fool out of yourself!
Accidents can happen to anybody but I have seen things on the line with these P2Flyers that causes great concern, Some of them do very well on the line but just accepting that this is the way things are is an abysmal way of thinking.
It's probably the only industry where people pay to gain work experience. Would you like it if your doctor paid his way through medical school or paid to get into residency?
I'm pretty certain the two of you have vested interests with p2f.
I've said it once, you are making a fool out of yourself!
Accidents can happen to anybody but I have seen things on the line with these P2Flyers that causes great concern, Some of them do very well on the line but just accepting that this is the way things are is an abysmal way of thinking.
It's probably the only industry where people pay to gain work experience. Would you like it if your doctor paid his way through medical school or paid to get into residency?
I'm pretty certain the two of you have vested interests with p2f.
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The whole doctor things is different though isnt it! flying is fun, before you where in aviation did you never stop and think it must be cool to fly those big planes and play with all that cool stuff?
The problem is the "fun to fly" part
The problem is the "fun to fly" part