P2F Scheme
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Compare P2F to a job in any other industry.. would you:
1. Pay to be a surgeon until you have completed say 100 operations sucessfully
2. Pay to work in an office to be a administration assistant for 10 months
3. Pay to stack shelves in a supermarket until you've passed training
All with no absolute guarantee of a job after.
Facetious, of course. If you're prepared to gamble like this on your future, don't be surprised when it goes wrong!
1. Pay to be a surgeon until you have completed say 100 operations sucessfully
2. Pay to work in an office to be a administration assistant for 10 months
3. Pay to stack shelves in a supermarket until you've passed training
All with no absolute guarantee of a job after.
Facetious, of course. If you're prepared to gamble like this on your future, don't be surprised when it goes wrong!
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you guys just keep coming back to this "i deserve a job flying a boeing/airbus right out of flight school, waah waah waah the industry is so hard i had no choice but to pay these guys for my job, waah waah waah you would do the same thing, tis not my fault" type of mentality...... i still cannot understand this idea that you are gaining something by PAYING for a job that instead should be PAYING you a fair salary.... 
how much is flying training today, is $50K a good guess for CPL-IR-ME? maybe not the best numbers but at todays rates, your flight training, a purchased type rating, and paid line training could easily reach $130K ($50K for basic flight training, $30K for a TR, and $70K for line training). and then what about your living expenses for a few years of flight school and then during your 3 years of flying for free; you are looking at massive debt...... if you actually can make it to a real job that ACTUALLY pays you money to fly an airplane, you'll be living like a college student for quite a while, paying off all your loans, while the rest of us can actually live like normal people.
singapore was mentioned earlier, a perfect example of the damage that has been done to our career by these P2F guys. SIN is a great city that also happens to be incredibly expensive, and instead of getting a great salary and benefits that allows a guy to live a normal lifestyle with (possibly) ones wife and kids while saving some money away, SIN is inundated with stepping stone jobs that leave you in debt......
expat flying is one of the last frontiers for us trying to actually MAKE money in aviation now that EU/USA salaries are crap, and you guys are steadily ruining it.
how much is flying training today, is $50K a good guess for CPL-IR-ME? maybe not the best numbers but at todays rates, your flight training, a purchased type rating, and paid line training could easily reach $130K ($50K for basic flight training, $30K for a TR, and $70K for line training). and then what about your living expenses for a few years of flight school and then during your 3 years of flying for free; you are looking at massive debt...... if you actually can make it to a real job that ACTUALLY pays you money to fly an airplane, you'll be living like a college student for quite a while, paying off all your loans, while the rest of us can actually live like normal people.
singapore was mentioned earlier, a perfect example of the damage that has been done to our career by these P2F guys. SIN is a great city that also happens to be incredibly expensive, and instead of getting a great salary and benefits that allows a guy to live a normal lifestyle with (possibly) ones wife and kids while saving some money away, SIN is inundated with stepping stone jobs that leave you in debt......
expat flying is one of the last frontiers for us trying to actually MAKE money in aviation now that EU/USA salaries are crap, and you guys are steadily ruining it.
short flights long nights
Pilot...well said 
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As pilots we always look out for number 1 first, even if it is destroying the industry the harsh reality is that nothing can stop the thousands of unemployed fresh CPL holders that have the money from signing up to these schemes.
Yes, the industry is getting destroyed. The fresh CPL holders that do the P2f might have the money, but no class or pride or skill. Well you might say, there are those with the skill and class. Guess what sunshine? Those guys are out there working their backsides slowing building their hours. Those guys are already scoring the better jobs and leaving chumps like you to do p2f. Just like in the club where the hot chicks end up going home with the alpha males, and the rest of the chumps get the fat ones or their right hand and then they complain there are no chicks left and it's desperate times so they have to pay.
I would predict (I hope I am wrong) that in the next 20 - 30 years there will be absolutely no money in the aviation game even for experienced guys.
The Aircraft manufactures will come up with a way to reduce to cockpits of the Next generation aircraft to just 1 pilot or as it might be called in the future a aircraft system monitor operative earning similar money to public bus drives/subway operators.
The industry is headed to hell, we are all guilty of trying to get ahead and it will be the demise of commercial aviation from about 2030 onwards.
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Stalker wants
.
Tell you what Stalker, when the P2Fers go away, then the criticisms will go away.
I don't know how you attained your position with your current carrier. Perhaps if the P2fers were non existent, the passenger would have said "Nice flight lads. Thanks for the ride"' rather than making you feel like a tw bit John, looking for a two bit hooker.
I have never felt so cheap and humiliated in all my life! and its because of promoters and haters on this site that the pilots who worked there way up are being labeled fakes, its not right so lets just agree to disagree on the whole P2F saga and try and keep this a respected position in the public eye. that's is all
Tell you what Stalker, when the P2Fers go away, then the criticisms will go away.
I don't know how you attained your position with your current carrier. Perhaps if the P2fers were non existent, the passenger would have said "Nice flight lads. Thanks for the ride"' rather than making you feel like a tw bit John, looking for a two bit hooker.
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P2F or LT name it as you want wasn't a real problem in the beginning IMO as in my case I went for it and paid for my LT 
around 8000 euros for 300h on the 737NG (I did more) when I compare with Lion Air who was asking around 30.000$ it's insane specially when you know that guys from Lion Air were filling their pockets.
I remember guys who were offered a job well before reaching 300H on type it's a matter of fact companies want jet time in the other hand I totally understand that it might be shoking and now the P2F or LT regarding the price is really shoking abuse.
Just to finish with the subject and my personnal case I'm not trying to justify myself but now the brokers are just taking advantage of the situation by asking astronomic amount of money and for those who have or had a job at that time good for you but your experience is yours we made a choice I don't regret regarding my situation at that time and specially now and believe it or not I tried hardly for many years to find a job but........
I wish the best to all of you and if possible without using P2F/LT
Sorry for my poor english.
around 8000 euros for 300h on the 737NG (I did more) when I compare with Lion Air who was asking around 30.000$ it's insane specially when you know that guys from Lion Air were filling their pockets.I remember guys who were offered a job well before reaching 300H on type it's a matter of fact companies want jet time in the other hand I totally understand that it might be shoking and now the P2F or LT regarding the price is really shoking abuse.
Just to finish with the subject and my personnal case I'm not trying to justify myself but now the brokers are just taking advantage of the situation by asking astronomic amount of money and for those who have or had a job at that time good for you but your experience is yours we made a choice I don't regret regarding my situation at that time and specially now and believe it or not I tried hardly for many years to find a job but........
I wish the best to all of you and if possible without using P2F/LT
Sorry for my poor english.
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How do these airlines even price a P2F scheme? I mean it must be 100% profit???
The average price of a scheme seems to have gone from around the 40k euro mark to 60k ++
The average price of a scheme seems to have gone from around the 40k euro mark to 60k ++
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The flying schools are the main beneficiaries since on average they charge usd 80,000 per head for an integrated course. There are literary thousands of flying schools around the world and some even boasting that they have produced more than a thousand pilots. If you do the math, they do not make millions, they make hundreds of millions. That to me is first level.
Second level is to ensure every single news mention that there are hundreds of thousands of pilots needed and this is a bright career to pursue.
Third level would be to ensure as many cpl jobless available in the market and to tell them that in order to be marketable , you need a type rating to have an advantage. again the type rating organization and experienced pilots like tre benefit to continue get cash.
fourth level is to make sure airlines hires guys with rating or have a partnership to get new cadets do the rating in the organization raking in millions once again.
end of the day, everyone in the supply chain make millions.
if they are being question, same old answer , nobody put a gun in your head to start your pilot training .
p2f is basically back to the basic of economics. supply and demand and to certain extend the trend. hoping that p2f stop is as if hoping everyone to continue use post mail when email is the norm now.
and who doesn't know there are jobs in tp in india, problem is, can you get one?
if it was so easy to get a job, there will be no p2f in the first place.
Second level is to ensure every single news mention that there are hundreds of thousands of pilots needed and this is a bright career to pursue.
Third level would be to ensure as many cpl jobless available in the market and to tell them that in order to be marketable , you need a type rating to have an advantage. again the type rating organization and experienced pilots like tre benefit to continue get cash.
fourth level is to make sure airlines hires guys with rating or have a partnership to get new cadets do the rating in the organization raking in millions once again.
end of the day, everyone in the supply chain make millions.
if they are being question, same old answer , nobody put a gun in your head to start your pilot training .
p2f is basically back to the basic of economics. supply and demand and to certain extend the trend. hoping that p2f stop is as if hoping everyone to continue use post mail when email is the norm now.
and who doesn't know there are jobs in tp in india, problem is, can you get one?
if it was so easy to get a job, there will be no p2f in the first place.
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Pay to fly schemes cater to mainly the wealthy. Schemes of these do not provide a level playing field for those who have more ability than writing a check for the privilege of pulling the gear.
The program will never lead to any good. The pay to players do not have the right nor do they deserve to right to say they, are legitimate crewmwmbers.
The program will never lead to any good. The pay to players do not have the right nor do they deserve to right to say they, are legitimate crewmwmbers.
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In my opinion, the so-called talent is clearly masked by the:
1. Greed of the bottom feeder carriers,
2, Greed of agencies for whom it's a win win situation for them;
3. The spoiled brats willing to circumvent the normal path of progression into the cockpit of an airliner; and
4. The ability of mommy and daddy to pay for their little brats' desires for instant gratification.
Deserved respect for the true aviator is being distanced even further with these miscreants willing to spend their families money for their instant gratification. I ask for no forgiveness from any one who supports the P2Fer as I express my views, and my mission to prevent their progression to international carriers.
1. Greed of the bottom feeder carriers,
2, Greed of agencies for whom it's a win win situation for them;
3. The spoiled brats willing to circumvent the normal path of progression into the cockpit of an airliner; and
4. The ability of mommy and daddy to pay for their little brats' desires for instant gratification.
Deserved respect for the true aviator is being distanced even further with these miscreants willing to spend their families money for their instant gratification. I ask for no forgiveness from any one who supports the P2Fer as I express my views, and my mission to prevent their progression to international carriers.
Last edited by captjns; 29th Nov 2013 at 21:51.
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So can i summarized that form all the posts here those that did cpl slogged on years toget a bush job slowly building hours finally to a jet arethe most deserving one? Those p2f ers jump the queue and are considered lousy pilots?
Guys guys, come on. Eeryone here oneself is the most hardworking and deserving, no wonder T and Cs are going down and everyone profits from the pilots. Just because someone paid for LT doesnt mean he aint not a good pilot. How are we to even judge from a public forum?
Those of you who bitch about P2Fers have you ever paid for your CPL? Captijns how about you did you pay for your CPL? There are some bright young chaps who couldnt afford a cpl even how about that? And sir No i didnt pay a single cent since the day I stepped on that piper. Oh I actually got paid in flight school. Do understand I do not agree with P2F at all, and yes it brings down T and Cs. But bashing the P2Fers here aint gonna help.
Guys guys, come on. Eeryone here oneself is the most hardworking and deserving, no wonder T and Cs are going down and everyone profits from the pilots. Just because someone paid for LT doesnt mean he aint not a good pilot. How are we to even judge from a public forum?
Those of you who bitch about P2Fers have you ever paid for your CPL? Captijns how about you did you pay for your CPL? There are some bright young chaps who couldnt afford a cpl even how about that? And sir No i didnt pay a single cent since the day I stepped on that piper. Oh I actually got paid in flight school. Do understand I do not agree with P2F at all, and yes it brings down T and Cs. But bashing the P2Fers here aint gonna help.
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I disagree bamboo. P2Fers have absolutely nothing to contribute to the industry, or the cockpit. They do nothing but continue to be part of the problem rather than part of the solution. Think about it bamboo, why should management higher a first officer, pay them a salary, when they can find individuals to fly for free? Is that a good or bad for the industry? Is that good or bad for those striving to improve T & Cs for those who will follow in our foot steps? Where's the dedication demonstrated other then whipping out a check book?
I blame the airlines who condone such programs. Legitimate carriers ala BA, DAL, AA, USAir, EK, EY, CX etc. don't sponsor such programs. I know for a fact that more P2Fers are being turned away from said carriers then will admit. Myself and other colleagues are on letter campaigns trying to convince chief pilots from carriers not banned from the EU and or US to hire pilots who were not fast to whip out that check book to pay for 300 hours of right seat time in a Boeing or Airbus.
Anyway Bamboo, as the the Pay to Flyers have the right to choose the path of instant gratification without paying their dues, its also my right, which I exercise not to fly with, nor allow P2Fers to ride on my jump seat.
I blame the airlines who condone such programs. Legitimate carriers ala BA, DAL, AA, USAir, EK, EY, CX etc. don't sponsor such programs. I know for a fact that more P2Fers are being turned away from said carriers then will admit. Myself and other colleagues are on letter campaigns trying to convince chief pilots from carriers not banned from the EU and or US to hire pilots who were not fast to whip out that check book to pay for 300 hours of right seat time in a Boeing or Airbus.
Anyway Bamboo, as the the Pay to Flyers have the right to choose the path of instant gratification without paying their dues, its also my right, which I exercise not to fly with, nor allow P2Fers to ride on my jump seat.
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@ stalker you say you have no issue with p2f fair enough.
you said you never had to pay a dime to get where you are , you have experience and have been in the industry for a while.
so imagine this you have to get a new job, its on a new type, but even with your experience they say you have to pay for your type you know why because there are people willing to pay for it.
Say you accept because times are tough you need a job, they offer you peanuts you know why because of your soo called taking the chance pilots who are willing to work for free. it doesnt affect you now but trust me it will soon enough and when it does i would love to see what you have to say.
you said flying the big airlines is not flying but procedures most the time.
fair enough but when something goes wrong i would rather have a guy who has flown the ac rather than who just know how to follow procedures. Beacuse thats when we actually earn our stripes. for a man who preached about long sight you seem very short sighted.
@lingdee i pressume you are not gonna answer the points i raised before
you said you never had to pay a dime to get where you are , you have experience and have been in the industry for a while.
so imagine this you have to get a new job, its on a new type, but even with your experience they say you have to pay for your type you know why because there are people willing to pay for it.
Say you accept because times are tough you need a job, they offer you peanuts you know why because of your soo called taking the chance pilots who are willing to work for free. it doesnt affect you now but trust me it will soon enough and when it does i would love to see what you have to say.
you said flying the big airlines is not flying but procedures most the time.
fair enough but when something goes wrong i would rather have a guy who has flown the ac rather than who just know how to follow procedures. Beacuse thats when we actually earn our stripes. for a man who preached about long sight you seem very short sighted.
@lingdee i pressume you are not gonna answer the points i raised before
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Stalker_
Please do not take this too personally, as I wish to address a question you posted for cptjns. I felt compelled to put in perspective a few key notes for the P2Fs, since presently I'm hired in the capacity to assess/hire low hours pilots.
Yes it is.
The Airlines and Aircraft manufacturers could hardly believe their luck, when the dream and glamour to fly could be converted into P2F scheme, thanks to the oversupply of ambitious young chaps with either wealthy parents, or stupidity to take the first financial plunge in believing that they stand an equal chance by paying their way through.
The cost reduction in this aspect is astounding. No longer do they need to spend on assessment and training investment. This is huge, so huge that some start ups had literally written this part off their initial cost.
Many of you P2Fs do not know nor care why it is important for the Airlines to be in charge of both costings and administrative role in taking the fresh pilots. Some are just not meant to fly, they do not possess any quality that will assure that they can be further trained or improved upon. By going P2Fs, you have foolishly taken upon yourself unnecessary risk, let alone diluting the T & Cs of the rest who went through the industry the more conventional way. Some of you are right to say that it's your right to do so, so please do not complain later on and ask WHY?
No P2F will bother to listen to anything else other than the occasional kind souls who yell "keep it up", "hang in there", and "believe in yourself" bull crap.
The situation is a lot tougher than you thought. The market is now conditioned to believe that well trained and CHEAP pilots are a given. My role as a key recruiter in assessing a few dozens of newbies yielded almost no satisfactory result. I could not believe my eyes for the first couple of days in the quality of the young pilots who do not possess the basic skills of leadership, team work, CRM, general aviation knowledge, nor technically proficient. I feel sorry for them that thousands were wasted as I do not foresee anyone in my similar capacity will hire them. On the 3rd day, I had to insist to my boss that a manager from HR accompanied me as I will be demonstrating exactly what I'm looking for, for the Airlines, and exactly why I had to fail them.
I did not have to try too hard to avoid recruiting P2F chaps, all except for one that stood out. Perhaps thanks to his strong aviation related family background and personal interest. The rest who made it are those who went through flight instruction or GA flying.
Please do not take this too personally, as I wish to address a question you posted for cptjns. I felt compelled to put in perspective a few key notes for the P2Fs, since presently I'm hired in the capacity to assess/hire low hours pilots.
its new pilots paying a fee to gain experience on an aircraft type in order to advance there careers, is that so terrible?
The Airlines and Aircraft manufacturers could hardly believe their luck, when the dream and glamour to fly could be converted into P2F scheme, thanks to the oversupply of ambitious young chaps with either wealthy parents, or stupidity to take the first financial plunge in believing that they stand an equal chance by paying their way through.
The cost reduction in this aspect is astounding. No longer do they need to spend on assessment and training investment. This is huge, so huge that some start ups had literally written this part off their initial cost.
Many of you P2Fs do not know nor care why it is important for the Airlines to be in charge of both costings and administrative role in taking the fresh pilots. Some are just not meant to fly, they do not possess any quality that will assure that they can be further trained or improved upon. By going P2Fs, you have foolishly taken upon yourself unnecessary risk, let alone diluting the T & Cs of the rest who went through the industry the more conventional way. Some of you are right to say that it's your right to do so, so please do not complain later on and ask WHY?
No P2F will bother to listen to anything else other than the occasional kind souls who yell "keep it up", "hang in there", and "believe in yourself" bull crap.
The situation is a lot tougher than you thought. The market is now conditioned to believe that well trained and CHEAP pilots are a given. My role as a key recruiter in assessing a few dozens of newbies yielded almost no satisfactory result. I could not believe my eyes for the first couple of days in the quality of the young pilots who do not possess the basic skills of leadership, team work, CRM, general aviation knowledge, nor technically proficient. I feel sorry for them that thousands were wasted as I do not foresee anyone in my similar capacity will hire them. On the 3rd day, I had to insist to my boss that a manager from HR accompanied me as I will be demonstrating exactly what I'm looking for, for the Airlines, and exactly why I had to fail them.
I did not have to try too hard to avoid recruiting P2F chaps, all except for one that stood out. Perhaps thanks to his strong aviation related family background and personal interest. The rest who made it are those who went through flight instruction or GA flying.
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@stalker i found offence to what you said about the pilots who are willing to pay seperates the ones with more comitment. what a lot of crap!!!
I been lucky enough to have a job, at the same hand i have friends who havnt made it to airlines but work as instructors and so on.
even have a guy who worked ground handling so he would get his name into the company which flies a 206.
how dare you even suggest that these pilots are not commited as the ones who are willing to pay.
I been lucky enough to have a job, at the same hand i have friends who havnt made it to airlines but work as instructors and so on.
even have a guy who worked ground handling so he would get his name into the company which flies a 206.
how dare you even suggest that these pilots are not commited as the ones who are willing to pay.
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@stalker if you believe p2f has a future you need your head checked. The amount of people and companies saying no to p2f pilots are growing day by day the latest being one that recruited p2f pilots in europe .
My frienda actually rejected due to fact he was a p2f pilot. and thats not hearsay that was from the mouth of my friend and incase you were wondering its an airline for the middle east.
And the fact you think that because i didnt folow p2f means i am cheating says all about the man you are. and for your info i do fly an ac over 20tonnes and no i didnt pay 70 grand to get here.
My frienda actually rejected due to fact he was a p2f pilot. and thats not hearsay that was from the mouth of my friend and incase you were wondering its an airline for the middle east.
And the fact you think that because i didnt folow p2f means i am cheating says all about the man you are. and for your info i do fly an ac over 20tonnes and no i didnt pay 70 grand to get here.
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You are right stalker i do not fly jets.
I am not sure what you mean by i am not jet pilot stuff. if by that you mean my head is Not up my arse like you then you are spot on
I am not sure what you mean by i am not jet pilot stuff. if by that you mean my head is Not up my arse like you then you are spot on
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My point of view is quite simple, yet I get idoits like NZ make silly negative comments on my post's who really cant see beyond his/her own front door.
Yes, I refuse to see through the front door because through there are guys lining up for scams like p2f. Little do these guys realise, that is actually the backdoor that I am standing at while through the actual front door lies people already building their hours the proper way.
Yes, we can argue about this all day long but the world will still keep on turning. There will be those that will bend over and there will be those who will keep standing and stick to their principles.
And no, this is not a childish thread. Maybe for you, as you do not have any constructive ideas to support your idea that p2f is a fantastic option. You wanna look at a childish thread, have a read of the logbook of a p2f pilot.
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Captijn should you also include closing the door on whoever that paid for flight school? Or rather anyone that paid for any flight training from day . Lets all stop even paying for cpl and let the airlines sponsor from the day you attend the interview. Good luck mate