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Two years flying in Indonesia

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Two years flying in Indonesia

Old 11th Feb 2013, 11:21
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In someone pocket
Posts: 1,126
Well said.. Highandlow and brasmelzuit..

Always remember TRY not to bite the hand that gave your dream a chance...or fed you (hard to get fed with Lion salary unless you are privileged few FO still on the USD contract )
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Old 11th Feb 2013, 12:35
  #22 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Always remember TRY not to bite the hand that gave your dream a chance
All do respect sir... the lad paid for his dream, it was not given, nor earned by the chap. He did not earn his way into the position, he bypassed the system.

Last edited by captjns; 11th Feb 2013 at 12:37.
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Old 11th Feb 2013, 13:12
  #23 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
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As one sage told me "the world is full of principled unemployed pilots driving taxis." Go figure
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Old 14th Feb 2013, 01:49
  #24 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2004
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gperignon: You are the product of your very own circumstance. You represent what so many try to defend against. That is, the lowering of the profession and avoidance of standards that can be purchased as opposed to earned. If guys like you simply refused to be the pawn in this race to the bottom, held your self respect and dignity - and what's more respected others' - then such airlines would find it most difficult to exist. Pilots should be selected on standards, experience, credentials, knowledge and application of all of the above. You have subscribed to the Paid To Fly category in order to circumvent all of that.

Any journalist worth his/her salt would not publish your letter or email to them. There are few if any facts to back up a disgruntled employee's whine. Now, I am not saying that what was written is not true as I have seen the same if not similar, but without facts you have no accountability. If you wish to utilise the press or a regulatory authority then supply, dates, flight numbers and tail regos. Whats more is that your English is far, far below par. How can you possibly expect to be taken seriously? Could you blame the recipient of your emails or letters to think they were written by a less than professional or experienced / mature person? You'll take this personally, but these are the types of facts that do you no justice. Like a sim or flight appraisal:- keep the emotion out of it and stick to the black and white facts.

Like many I'm sure you too have seen and read the emails and official print of management in poor English and laughed (or cringed) at the poor English. We all say or think 'Why the hell don't they get a native English speaker to write it properly and professionally??!!". The same holds true here.

In many other ways I admire your stance against what you witnessed. But, as a person who contributed to these standards I cannot offer any more sympathy. If you and the rest of the P2F pilots went out and earned the job via experience, credentials, etc then these positions and the low standards would be far less. Pilots WITH those qualifications would be forced to be hired by pure supply and demand, however this works against us nowadays. There are more people willing to sacrifice the profession as a P2F guy as opposed to "doing the hard yards" in whatever capacity is needed.

Last edited by TopTup; 14th Feb 2013 at 02:06.
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Old 16th Feb 2013, 02:28
  #25 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: asia
Posts: 36
For all of you who bitch about P2F pilots, have you ever looked at yourself? How many of you have paid your way thru flying school obtaining your CPL, isnt't that P2F as well? Unless you've joined a major as a cadet.
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Old 16th Feb 2013, 15:47
  #26 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2009
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stupid is as stupid sounds..
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Old 16th Feb 2013, 18:06
  #27 (permalink)  
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Bamboo, that reasoning reminds of the toper who say's he's not an alcholic because he only drinks after 1700.

Wanna try another bit of logic?

All P2Fers should beat their chests and aver how they happy they bypassed the system or normal progression... don't you Bamboo?
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Old 16th Feb 2013, 18:22
  #28 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: asia
Posts: 36
In this economic climate, airlines dictate how they want to employ, lots of pilots little jobs, P2F don' t really have choice do they? How about pilots who paid for their rating? P2F or you consider normal progression system?
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Old 16th Feb 2013, 20:34
  #29 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by bamboo30 View Post
For all of you who bitch about P2F pilots, have you ever looked at yourself? How many of you have paid your way thru flying school obtaining your CPL, isnt't that P2F as well? Unless you've joined a major as a cadet.
Paying for flying lessons and paying an employer to work for them are two different things. As a qualified commercial pilot, you are entitled to use your qualification to earn a living from it. Not to work for free, or worst than that, pay your employer to work for them. If you can't see the difference between the two, then you shouldn't be in this profession.

Last edited by smiling monkey; 17th Feb 2013 at 05:56.
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Old 16th Feb 2013, 21:42
  #30 (permalink)  
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Right on SM,
in 200? some of my students then were Sponsored by XXX others were self sponsored at the Academy I worked. Most are now in a Paid Job with an Airline there or elsewhere being Paid.
I think the same at the Akademi Laut there right, oops let the cat out the bag

Last edited by kwaiyai; 16th Feb 2013 at 21:42.
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Old 17th Feb 2013, 01:08
  #31 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: asia
Posts: 36
Then why the bashing on P2F then? I mean yes the paying is wrong, but why bash them on their flying capability? What has P2F got to do with flying skills?
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Old 17th Feb 2013, 14:25
  #32 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a far better place
Posts: 2,480
Two words come to mind. TRAINING BOND. Airline foots the bill for training. Pilot repays airline for training should they desire to take a hike before completing the contract period.

Trainind bonds have about disappeared because of the bountiful amount of children willing to spend the family's fortune.

There is no longer a level playing field as long as there are P2Fers out and about.

I have to laugh when P2Fers cry about how they were abused, cheated, and ripped off.

It's as if those of us who rose through the ranks through the natural progression really give a rat's a$$ about P2Fers. What's that saying? As this is a forum, I'll modify the "you're talking to the hand". You're posting to the hand.

Last edited by captjns; 18th Feb 2013 at 14:13.
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Old 19th Feb 2013, 13:10
  #33 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: negative RAIM.....
Posts: 329
Bamboo..... You and your ilk were "hired" (loose term - very loose term), not because you were the best candidate but because you are the cheapest. Pilots who spent many, many years acquiring the skills and knowledge to achieve a standard (once) deemed required to pilot a jet transport are overlooked by bean counters hiring those without the years of credibility but offering a "I'll do it for less, hell, I'll even pay to do it" ideology.

Your credentials come from a check book. The airmen you undercut have credentials from a log book.

Yeah kid - there's a BIG difference.

Don't go on about "in this economic climate" crap. If you are your kind had the kahoonas to do the "hard yards" and "earn" a job instead of taking the cheap and nasty path then standards and remuneration would reflect the true value of a professional airman. Two words P2F guys will never, ever attain but which others spend a life time seeking because it's something not found in a bank account or accountant's spreadsheet despite your wishes it were. It's an INTEGRITY thing.

So "hired"? No. A fool and his money easily parted? Definitely.
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Old 19th Feb 2013, 13:19
  #34 (permalink)  
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TopTup avirs...

Your credentials come from a check book. The airmen you undercut have credentials from a log book.
Spot on TopTup. I will one up the statement... the checkbook belongs to Mummy and Daddy. I'll call a spade a spade. People of Bamboo's ilk were not hired. They bought, or even put it in its least common terms, bribed their way into the right seat.

Eventually these miscreants are going to want out of Lion Air. They may seek their way to CX, EK, Fly Dubai etc. I sincerely hope the chief pilots and D/Os take a long look at the fairy taled credentials of these people. I hope these spoiled children are BYPASSED in place of those pilots who earned their credentials the honest way. Then they can sit back and ask themselves... was the $50,000 really worth it?

Dillusionals such as Bamboo don't realize the undo pressure the carriers such as Lion Air put on captains. Captains are becoming baby sitters. Line Operation in many instances are single pilot operations. And in bad weather the captain is better off having the right seat unoccupied all together with distractions from the child expressing his/her fear about flying into a cloud or turbulence.

Last edited by captjns; 19th Feb 2013 at 13:26.
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Old 19th Feb 2013, 18:50
  #35 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: asia
Posts: 36
Yes sir agree with you that its got to be a hard earned profession. How about guys that paid their way thru flying school? Paid for type rating? Do you consider that the " real way by merits" sure with the right amount of money paying the flying school onecan get a CPL easy be it a good pilot or not.
By the way, before you shoot me, i am not a P2F neither am I the best pilot like you sir. I went thru the cadet system of an established carrier and work my way to command like the rest of you.
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Old 20th Feb 2013, 07:24
  #36 (permalink)  
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Paying for a type rating, and bonding is clearly not the same.

Bamboo, you seem to condone the act of cheating the system by paying, more like bribing one's way into the cockpit.

A type rating does not guaranty an applicant a job upon successful completion.

However, a $50,000 bribe will guaranty that a properly qualified airman will be bypassed by such miscreant... wouldn't you agree?
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 15:38
  #37 (permalink)  
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I expected more posts about the flights in Indonesia. As I previously explained this letter was just a testimony of what I saw and did during this period without being able to bring any piece of evidence on the table. Facts matter of course, unfortunately the only way to be convinced of them is to go and fly there. And yet you would still not call it facts. I provide you with the information, It is up to you to use it, believe it, or not. I am aware of the situation in the rest of Asia as well; I have no hope to change it by myself. I simply report a problem. I certainly would have written it differently, more neutral and professional, if I had to do it now on this forum. I already explained the conditions in which I wrote this letter and the reason why I decided to copy and paste it without modifying.

About the language, I for sure don't pretend to have a level of writing which allows me to publish like a journalist would, when so many native speakers would not be able as well, I presume. However I honestly don't think it was a real problem for the Indonesian newspaper, since I told them that they were free to cut and edit the form. Would they have had a real intention to publish, they could also simply contact me to talk about it.
But I understand the point; a bad use of the language makes the reading more difficult and the message harder to accept, especially for the native speakers. I wish I could have done better about that.
The best solution would have been to write it with another native speaker who flew with me and could understand the technical problems and the situation. It was not possible for two reasons: the first - and it is really hard to imagine for those who never had such conditions, even hard for me to remember it nowadays - we had absolutely no time together. As I described, we didn't sleep enough most of the time, the social life was almost nonexistent.
The second is that nobody wanted to talk or testify about it. No wonder why...
This brings me to one comment: when native speakers tell me that they saw the same things over there, the question which immediately comes to my mind is: why didn't they post about it themselves? Maybe they did afterwards, but I read most of the forums about this part of the world before I left for Indonesia and asked for a few advices. I had a good general idea but there were plenty I still had to discover when I arrived. Never assume that everybody knows. Isn't it the philosophy of our job to always clear a doubt and report a problem? I am sure that a native speaker would have done a much better job if he really wanted to.

I don't consider taking anyone's job, if anything it's my job which disappeared one day. I also went via the "right way", learned and progressed step by step during several years to the jet aircrafts. I never thought I would have to face this situation. I did nothing wrong, always had fair and good recommendations everywhere I went; before, between Indonesia and now. And even if it was not the case, one should never be blamed for saying the truth.
Many years ago, you could read in the forums that paying for a type rating was unacceptable. Now it is not considered anymore like paying to work, but paying for a line training is, still. The reality is that the situation has evolved and not in the good way. Am I happy about it? Clearly not. But do I improve the situation when I avoid admitting it? Do you think that the more you say something and the more it becomes true? The economical recession is not an argument, it's a reality. I don't even understand the idea of denying it. If you fly in a place where you don't fear for your job, then just stay where you are and enjoy what you have now.
Like I said in my previous post if you do everything you can to find another job and after too many months at home, your savings running dangerously low, your skills being devaluated on the paper then you have to do what it takes to survive, nothing less. Would you feel guilty for that? Of course not. As I said, I don't expect anyone who has not been already in this situation to fully understand the problem.
And what about the richest countries where you have this social security? Where the state will provide you with unemployment insurance, not as much as your previous salary for sure, but still a bit of something which will allow you to wait for better days while you keep looking for a job. It can last during several months or even years depending of the countries. I know a few pilots who used their indemnities until the end. Do you really think this is being part of the solution? Don't you think that increasing the cost of the work in Europe won't also have a bad result on the job market?
I had a difficult time in Indonesia but then I could get a good job again and be back to a normal life. I don't have any personal interest in posting here. As you can imagine from someone who has really no problem to openly talk about such kind of subjects, I don't need a general approval on this forum to be happy in my life. I didn't do it for that. I left this country more than a year ago and never looked back until now. Because I believe that testifying is important. I was fully aware of the situation before I went there and, during my time in Indonesia, I did my best to try to improve the things around me. Those who flew with me know that, in spite of the difficult conditions, I was very active to email about technical queries or problems, it's the way I am. I did many air safety reports (most of which were probably not considered as I mentioned) and when I left, I naively tried to slightly change the situation there when I wrote this letter. And now this thread for the pilots. I don't think that I have to be ashamed of anything I did in this country.

About the young pilots, you could find two kinds: the ones who paid and the ones who were paid. Exactly the same experience, I even met more experienced ones in the first group and only pilots coming for their first job for those who had a salary. I donít know the statistics of course. The only difference was the place where they did their type rating. The one who paid had to go through a screening on simulators and only 60% passed it when I joined. Like the ones who had a salary, they could be fired during their line training or after, and the company would have to reimburse one part of the money but deducted from all the expenses. As I already explained these expenses were high and not so much money would remain out of it. Therefore, assuming that a pilot who paid to fly had less chance to be fired and would be less qualified because he could take it easy, is wrong. He actually had more to lose. And assuming that they would all be replaced by more experienced pilots, if none of them would agree to work under this condition, is even more wrong. Why choosing a young pilot when you could hire a more experienced one for the same salary in this part of the world? I donít have the answer to this question - something to do with the profile as I heard - but I know that, many companies do it and not only limited to this job and this sector of activity.
Now if no pilot would agree to pay to fly, of course the companies would have to hire. Although, in a sector where the salaries of the employees and payments of other contractors would represent, letís say around 30% of the total expenses; we must consider that a company, which plans its strategy based on free workers or people who are ready to pay to work, would not expand as much if they had to pay everyone. So we cannot make the assumption that for each pilot who pays to fly, one could be hired. It would be less than that.
Of course I am in favour of training bonds, I started with one myself. But the reality is different now; you can do everything right and still not find a first job. I met some pilots, not so young anymore, who couldnít even find a paid job as an instructor in an aeroclub when they started. The supply and demand is not balanced anymore. So what do you say to these young pilots who realise that they will never realise anything else since the situation is too bad in their country? They tried everything and still cannot find, unless they go abroad and start like that. You tell them that they should forget about their dreams and sacrifice themselves, for the profit of other more privileged pilots (who maybe donít realise it: remember the story I told you about the pilot who was on strike and didnít know that in Europe, we had to pay for our training) in countries with a better (or at least developing) economy? This is what they should do? Yes I am sure that we would all do thatÖ
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Old 1st Mar 2013, 04:35
  #38 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Indonesia
Posts: 3
Just shuuuuut uuuuup.....
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Old 1st Mar 2013, 05:48
  #39 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a far better place
Posts: 2,480
Here we go again.

Time to give a rest Gperignon. I don't think P2fers want to identify themselves for obvious reasons.
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Old 1st Mar 2013, 08:50
  #40 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2008
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I'm reading a lot of comparing between training bonds and P2F. Please make no mistake, there is a huge difference between a training bond a P2F or even investing in a type rating. A training bond is a cost recovery technique used by airlines after they've recruited you, based on your previous experience and ability, i.e., you've earned that position and are not necessarily directly out of pocket.

Investing in a type rating could be considered as a personal technical upgrade, with the view to increasing your chances of securing employment through legitimate means, complementing your previous experience.

Pay to fly is not merely about JUST paying to fly, you are buying a job, in some cases buying a job so you can work for free Airlines who recruit this way do this for one reason and one reason only... $$$. Do you honestly think they care about the aptitude of their pilots? They have planes (in some cases orders for hundreds) that need to be crewed. They don't care who you are, what your experience is. Oh, you have a pilot licence? You're desperate for a job? Fantastic! Let's exploit your desperation and financial resources. Come here, we'll give you a job, you can fly our shiny new jets, just pay us 50k and let us not pay you anything for a year.

Airline wins. Pilot wins. Right? Wrong. Airline's must be laughing their heads off. Pilot's win for a year or two. But the industry? Well... These P2F (or more specifically P4J - Pay for job), are setting a new standard for the terms and conditions of pilots worldwide. Airlines will start to (and have started to) think "hmm... our competitors are making their pilots PAY for training, and some aren't even paying them a salary! This is fantastic!" Next thing that said airline's contract negotiations come along, bargaining power has been diminished, airline starts crying foul about their financial condition and cost cutting measures. Airline wins. Pilot loses.

And these P2F genius' who are thinking they've jipped the system and leap frogged most of the hard working pilots in the industry, end up getting burned by the system they've helped to create. I hear a lot of whinging and justification for P2F due to "financial crisis", "times are tough". Suck it up princess!! What? Now the new airline you've applied for in the First World has dropped their salaries, working longer and harder for less money? Well, congratulations. This is your doing. A big thank you from the rest of us. Stop your complaining. This is a discussion you cannot, nor ever will, win.

Last edited by Braviator; 1st Mar 2013 at 08:51.
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