CSA China Southern!
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: China
Age: 58
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Truth
All he states is correct and he is way to nice about what is really going on. Please remember that China Southern is perceived VERY differently on different fleets. The various fleets almost run like independent airlines.
This I have heard from some 787 guys. I am on 330, and it is similar but some small differences.....
First of all, foreign captains are treated as the 5th wheel on the wagon. You are not partaking in any decision making. Best illustrated by one colleague being active crew, not knowing about a diversion until they landed in the alternate!
Another thing is the constant smoking in the cockpit, if you are sensitive, or allergic dont even consider coming here.
The attitude towards foreign captain can be described well by this: when one foreign captain stated he needed a landing for currency, the FO told him "You are here for money, we are here to fly".
The fleet manager started a foreign captain meeting by stating he consider foreign pilots over paid, and also that we need to perform better than Chinese pilots because of our salary. Sets the tone nicely....
As far as taking a job here, sure, if you want a 787 rating that you never can use in another license, since the Chinese will not release a License Verification letter, and you want to fly hours that most airlines would consider Cruise Capt. hours, sure go ahead...... Also do not expect to be paid full pay for around 7-9 months. Some pilots have finished training and still not get full pay as the airline have to process paperwork......... Scandalous working environment, contracts that dont hold what they promise and weather conditions that makes flying hell....... Welcome to China.
This I have heard from some 787 guys. I am on 330, and it is similar but some small differences.....
First of all, foreign captains are treated as the 5th wheel on the wagon. You are not partaking in any decision making. Best illustrated by one colleague being active crew, not knowing about a diversion until they landed in the alternate!
Another thing is the constant smoking in the cockpit, if you are sensitive, or allergic dont even consider coming here.
The attitude towards foreign captain can be described well by this: when one foreign captain stated he needed a landing for currency, the FO told him "You are here for money, we are here to fly".
The fleet manager started a foreign captain meeting by stating he consider foreign pilots over paid, and also that we need to perform better than Chinese pilots because of our salary. Sets the tone nicely....
As far as taking a job here, sure, if you want a 787 rating that you never can use in another license, since the Chinese will not release a License Verification letter, and you want to fly hours that most airlines would consider Cruise Capt. hours, sure go ahead...... Also do not expect to be paid full pay for around 7-9 months. Some pilots have finished training and still not get full pay as the airline have to process paperwork......... Scandalous working environment, contracts that dont hold what they promise and weather conditions that makes flying hell....... Welcome to China.
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: China
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dihedral1,
To put it in perspective, I have been in Asia for over 10 years and I have never wanted or needed to make a post like that. For those who are considering making this a first time expat job, guys are gonna be very disappointed. There is a lot of bait and switch.
To put it in perspective, I have been in Asia for over 10 years and I have never wanted or needed to make a post like that. For those who are considering making this a first time expat job, guys are gonna be very disappointed. There is a lot of bait and switch.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: canada
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I suggest you look at the contract numbers they are the same whether you are type rated or not - the only advantage if your type rated and not transitioning is your training will be significantly less time.
go to the contract companies websites for the details of the contracts.
go to the contract companies websites for the details of the contracts.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: canada
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think I will just download every game, magazine, app, ibook, video on my iPad, and sit in a zen like trance, with the oxygen mask on......and think of the money….
Thats the way to get through it I think -
Theres a few expats on the job all previously type rated except one who took 7months ( through no fault of his own) and is now online.
Thats the way to get through it I think -
Theres a few expats on the job all previously type rated except one who took 7months ( through no fault of his own) and is now online.
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: China
Age: 58
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hehe
Good Luck.
Time Off. Yea. You mean in China? You are not permitted to leave until your days off come up.
Bidding for trips does not happen. You will fly whatever they decide. Long or short. You will fly mostly Cargo. As the chinese dont like it because it is dangerous. Lots of goods on board that you will not know of. They take beibes from shippers to slip it on.
Have fun. Enjoy it.
Time Off. Yea. You mean in China? You are not permitted to leave until your days off come up.
Bidding for trips does not happen. You will fly whatever they decide. Long or short. You will fly mostly Cargo. As the chinese dont like it because it is dangerous. Lots of goods on board that you will not know of. They take beibes from shippers to slip it on.
Have fun. Enjoy it.
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: China
Age: 58
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmm
On a second note. How have you seen an Expat schedule when they only schedule you for five days at a time!?!?? You mean you have seen what flights they have done???? What airline in 2014 publish five day rolling rosters???
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: West side
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think too many folks out there just wishing to hear what they want to hear.
If you're looking for stability of job, trust of signed contract, hospitality of co workers and cleanliness in working environment. Don't even think about it.
And don't even start with asking about living here with family. You have to be really stupid to even ask that question with all the information available regarding life in Chinese main cities, let alone guangzhou.
HOWEVER, if you're like me, heavy smoker, type rated, dealt with Asians before(Korean and Vietnamese for my case), like to change other half regularly and most importantly wish to speed up my savings for retirement, then this is the place to be.
If you're looking for stability of job, trust of signed contract, hospitality of co workers and cleanliness in working environment. Don't even think about it.
And don't even start with asking about living here with family. You have to be really stupid to even ask that question with all the information available regarding life in Chinese main cities, let alone guangzhou.
HOWEVER, if you're like me, heavy smoker, type rated, dealt with Asians before(Korean and Vietnamese for my case), like to change other half regularly and most importantly wish to speed up my savings for retirement, then this is the place to be.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Gardening
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cruise Capt or not??
Cruzfo and UpsidedowninChina,
Thanks for all your info guys. Good to hear a bit from some 'new' guys on the job so we all know a bit more what to expect!!
One question on the Cruise Capt position or not. There is a lot of speculation here as whether it is or not so maybe you can finally put the topic to bed for us. I undertstand from Cruzfo's first post that you do indeed get take offs and landings but subject to certain wx conditions. Is this correct? Im not taking the position for the love of flying but ONLY sitting on the j/s ALL the time might be slightly mind numbing so would be nice to be in the front seat at least occasionaly :-)
Thanks guys and all the best down there. Hope things improve. Lets hope its just coz its all so new for them and things will improve. Gotta stay positive in this game :-)
Cheers
Thanks for all your info guys. Good to hear a bit from some 'new' guys on the job so we all know a bit more what to expect!!
One question on the Cruise Capt position or not. There is a lot of speculation here as whether it is or not so maybe you can finally put the topic to bed for us. I undertstand from Cruzfo's first post that you do indeed get take offs and landings but subject to certain wx conditions. Is this correct? Im not taking the position for the love of flying but ONLY sitting on the j/s ALL the time might be slightly mind numbing so would be nice to be in the front seat at least occasionaly :-)
Thanks guys and all the best down there. Hope things improve. Lets hope its just coz its all so new for them and things will improve. Gotta stay positive in this game :-)
Cheers
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: China
Age: 58
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Truth
Takeoff and landing will only be permitted with instructor in right seat. It has nothing to do with WX. They have very rigid conditions on crew composition for TO and LDG. After a few years they claim we can also become instructors, but I will believe it when I see it to put it that way.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: wyoming
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is a repost of Post#71 I made almost 1 year ago It seems almost everything I posted had held up as the current situation at CS. I will repeat again this might be a decent gig for type rated guys but NTR will suffer 1 1/2-2 years of hell. Good luck on getting any bases outside of Guanzhou on the boeings. At best you can hope for is a split trade.
"For the Non type rated guys considering CS you need to consider a few essential points which your recruiter nor the airline will disclose. This will essentially be a Cruise Captain job during your initial contract. You will be bonded around 20K. The pass rate for NTR guys is less than 20%. The simulator is the main tool utilized for elimination. A friend of mine went through recently and 3 of 14 guys passed the simulator. The medical is another huge eliminator. Many will NOT pass and those who do pass can be eliminated at one of their recurrent medicals. The failure rate is around 10% for recurrent medicals. You can also fail or be terminated for QAR issues, hard landings bu copilots and recurrent simulator checks. Initially the company will tell you that you will be a full up Captain but just flying along with a more senior Captain. This is an old widely circulated story told by many other airlines in the recent past. Look at Jade Cargo guys who flew as Cruise Captains for 4 years. Look at NTR 330 guys at Air China who are still flying as FOs and paid as FOs. Look at Juneyao guys who take almost 1.5 years to get fully qualified as NTR Captains. China and the CAAC has a long long history of bringing on NTR pilots and promising them Captain jobs and then delivering only a Cruise Captain job. You will eventually make it to full Captain but it will be after a long long heavy process as Chinese Captains smoke on you in the cockpit and harass you as an inexperienced copilot. For those already type rated this will probably turn out to be a decent contract. Another limiting factor is CS is expanding their International flying from Guanzhou. For one who flies and travels frequently in China I can tell you it is an uneconomic hub. It is isolated and people in China don't want to fly internationally from there. Shanghai and Beijing is where all the action lies. I can see CS over extending themselves from this hub and creating an unsustainable economic hub. For those who think this will be choosing an out based hub like SYD or MEL or AMS etc. do not believe it. It might work out ok for the Airbus guys but the Boeing guys will fly most of their trips from Guanzhou so be prepared for endless Deadheads. There are obstacles at every turn in China and the bureaucracy is mind boggling here. Things to keep in mind while pondering a job in China."
"For the Non type rated guys considering CS you need to consider a few essential points which your recruiter nor the airline will disclose. This will essentially be a Cruise Captain job during your initial contract. You will be bonded around 20K. The pass rate for NTR guys is less than 20%. The simulator is the main tool utilized for elimination. A friend of mine went through recently and 3 of 14 guys passed the simulator. The medical is another huge eliminator. Many will NOT pass and those who do pass can be eliminated at one of their recurrent medicals. The failure rate is around 10% for recurrent medicals. You can also fail or be terminated for QAR issues, hard landings bu copilots and recurrent simulator checks. Initially the company will tell you that you will be a full up Captain but just flying along with a more senior Captain. This is an old widely circulated story told by many other airlines in the recent past. Look at Jade Cargo guys who flew as Cruise Captains for 4 years. Look at NTR 330 guys at Air China who are still flying as FOs and paid as FOs. Look at Juneyao guys who take almost 1.5 years to get fully qualified as NTR Captains. China and the CAAC has a long long history of bringing on NTR pilots and promising them Captain jobs and then delivering only a Cruise Captain job. You will eventually make it to full Captain but it will be after a long long heavy process as Chinese Captains smoke on you in the cockpit and harass you as an inexperienced copilot. For those already type rated this will probably turn out to be a decent contract. Another limiting factor is CS is expanding their International flying from Guanzhou. For one who flies and travels frequently in China I can tell you it is an uneconomic hub. It is isolated and people in China don't want to fly internationally from there. Shanghai and Beijing is where all the action lies. I can see CS over extending themselves from this hub and creating an unsustainable economic hub. For those who think this will be choosing an out based hub like SYD or MEL or AMS etc. do not believe it. It might work out ok for the Airbus guys but the Boeing guys will fly most of their trips from Guanzhou so be prepared for endless Deadheads. There are obstacles at every turn in China and the bureaucracy is mind boggling here. Things to keep in mind while pondering a job in China."
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: canada
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can anyone explain then… seriously…
why does the 330 have it so good with the aus bases and the rosters that have most of them in their own beds 15night a month.
Why when the 87 and 77 continues to expand should it be any different?
curious..
why does the 330 have it so good with the aus bases and the rosters that have most of them in their own beds 15night a month.
Why when the 87 and 77 continues to expand should it be any different?
curious..
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Earth
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmm
Hi Cheyenne (Capital of Wyoming pilots)..
I am not in any way discounting your post..
But if memory serves me correct since that post over a yr ago
London is up and running, exploratory charters have been done to Birmingham and the UK Govt is actively working on liberalizing the visa problems for Chinese nationals.
Frankfurt has started or about to start via West China
Charter flights to Wellington announced (exploratory)
JFK about to start.
Mauritius about to start.
Additional flights regionally, which may lead to upgrades in the equipment once loads factors hit certain consistent levels. I have seen the 330 in SE Asia a few times and have been told "full flights"
CSA has opened an "office" or Base in Shenzhen and recently Shanghai (with CAAC blessing), and if the CAAC even remotely relaxes it's 1 route 1 airline policy, then I would posit that there is much more room to expand.
Geographically CAN is not that far from HKG (don't all attack me at once) and CX seems to have made a decent go of it over the years. The relaxation of the visa requirement (72hrs stopovers) is helping to sell the Kangaroo and Canton routes.
If the onboard product can be brought more inline with Thai, Singapore etc (recently on CSA to LAX they had no ice cubes half way through the flight) then people in OZ/Asia will find them a compelling choice. A cursory exam of Kayak for flights from Vietnam or Cambodia to Europe or LAX will show CSA usually has very competitive prices alongside QR.
Now this is not to negate any issues you have had in trg or the line, though I believe some are more to do with CAAC stipulations than a desire on the part of CSA. But I believe in the worlds most populous nation CSA certainly has room to grow, albeit Beijing does have geographical superiority.
Just my 2 cents worth..
I am not in any way discounting your post..
But if memory serves me correct since that post over a yr ago
London is up and running, exploratory charters have been done to Birmingham and the UK Govt is actively working on liberalizing the visa problems for Chinese nationals.
Frankfurt has started or about to start via West China
Charter flights to Wellington announced (exploratory)
JFK about to start.
Mauritius about to start.
Additional flights regionally, which may lead to upgrades in the equipment once loads factors hit certain consistent levels. I have seen the 330 in SE Asia a few times and have been told "full flights"
CSA has opened an "office" or Base in Shenzhen and recently Shanghai (with CAAC blessing), and if the CAAC even remotely relaxes it's 1 route 1 airline policy, then I would posit that there is much more room to expand.
Geographically CAN is not that far from HKG (don't all attack me at once) and CX seems to have made a decent go of it over the years. The relaxation of the visa requirement (72hrs stopovers) is helping to sell the Kangaroo and Canton routes.
If the onboard product can be brought more inline with Thai, Singapore etc (recently on CSA to LAX they had no ice cubes half way through the flight) then people in OZ/Asia will find them a compelling choice. A cursory exam of Kayak for flights from Vietnam or Cambodia to Europe or LAX will show CSA usually has very competitive prices alongside QR.
Now this is not to negate any issues you have had in trg or the line, though I believe some are more to do with CAAC stipulations than a desire on the part of CSA. But I believe in the worlds most populous nation CSA certainly has room to grow, albeit Beijing does have geographical superiority.
Just my 2 cents worth..
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: China
Age: 58
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
787 7777
It is simple math why the 787 or 777 will struggle to have people in their own beds 15 days a month. There are 10 787 in CSN. And 15 or so expats. They need 6 7 8 pilots (heard all numbers) for a base to open. When 4 of the pilots want LHR, 4 want AKLn, 4 YVR and 3 CAN, then everyone is **** out of luck......... So EITHER They must hire more, or ppl must sacrifice where they want to be based and agree on a base. Not so easy........
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: China
Age: 58
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AMS
No one here appreciates BS. That is why we dislike China. One thing you better learn. Stick to facts. And facts are not found with the agencies. They lie out of their teeth to sign you up. Only way they make money. And dont expect support when you on line. CSA runs the show. One guy will go two months on training pay after final check because some
Leader that must sign a document is away. That is a FACT.
Leader that must sign a document is away. That is a FACT.