Living in China - Families
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Cachorrao
Originally Posted by Cachorrao
I think the problem is bigger than that.
For a long time, we had experienced pilots unemployed. Right now, I am experienced and I am looking for one. So, it is not exactly like there are jobs laying around for anyone who wants to live in the shiny tropics. If things were easy, I would not be looking forward to go to China.
The problem, imo, is that the companies are using this to pressure pilots to maintain the 'status quo', or, in plain language, to keep treating us like sh@t.
If there was a lack of pilots, I would not mind having foreign people flying here. But that is not exactly the case.
One should think about the big Brazilian expats. Why would they leave if the country is warm, women are beautiful and the beer is cold ? Because the working situation airline wise sucks. It should give something to think that TAM is the biggest airline in Brazil. I still think it is unbelievable that they joined Star Alliance. For me, TAM joining SA is like one getting the representation of Breitling and start selling fake watches.
Another thing to think about is WHO would come here, given so many Brazilians are not up to take the crap they are given.
So, I am not against foreign people. I just want that the market demands a number of pilots the country does not have, a situation that, today does not exist.
If conditions would get better here, you would see a flock of people returning.
For a long time, we had experienced pilots unemployed. Right now, I am experienced and I am looking for one. So, it is not exactly like there are jobs laying around for anyone who wants to live in the shiny tropics. If things were easy, I would not be looking forward to go to China.
The problem, imo, is that the companies are using this to pressure pilots to maintain the 'status quo', or, in plain language, to keep treating us like sh@t.
If there was a lack of pilots, I would not mind having foreign people flying here. But that is not exactly the case.
One should think about the big Brazilian expats. Why would they leave if the country is warm, women are beautiful and the beer is cold ? Because the working situation airline wise sucks. It should give something to think that TAM is the biggest airline in Brazil. I still think it is unbelievable that they joined Star Alliance. For me, TAM joining SA is like one getting the representation of Breitling and start selling fake watches.
Another thing to think about is WHO would come here, given so many Brazilians are not up to take the crap they are given.
So, I am not against foreign people. I just want that the market demands a number of pilots the country does not have, a situation that, today does not exist.
If conditions would get better here, you would see a flock of people returning.
So why such a shameless protectionism? During my career I've been flying with many brazilian pilots and I can tell you almost all of them were great professionals. And I never heard of such a thing of petitions to limit expats to live and work in any particular country. Just comply with the country rules and pre-requisites and you will be ok (no matter if you are Brazilian, american, russian, etc).
Once again, I consider this brazilian pilots initiative as unthinkable and quite selfish. So maybe the next time a brazilian pilots looks for a job outside Brazil who knows if he/she will find out some resistance to get that particular job...
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Hello, Busav8r;
The Brazilian pilots went to those places because there was a lack of labour by the time they arrived. This is not the case here. I am the living example of that. I would love to live and work in Australia, but the requirements I've seen this far are 'Catch 22' styled.
I doubt that I would get a job today in the countries you quoted. Actually, I would get amazed if I'd get the job in front of a national.
I have nothing against foreign people working here. I just want the market to need them first.
As you have yourself quoted, there is a number of us working abroad. Why ? Because of the BS we face here with our airlines. The only way to fight this is to have a shortage of labor, that would make the airlines improve their behaviour.
They are just trying to use foreign people at this stage to threaten us to shut up. That is why so many (including me) are against foreign people (at least at this time) working here.
It is not a biased opinion. I would go for a job abroad if it is necessary and interesting for me. I do not expect to get hired because they think I am cool or not. They will hire me (or not) depending on their need. Once the Chinese market has enough pilots, they will send the expats back. I do not see a problem with that.
The Brazilian pilots went to those places because there was a lack of labour by the time they arrived. This is not the case here. I am the living example of that. I would love to live and work in Australia, but the requirements I've seen this far are 'Catch 22' styled.
I doubt that I would get a job today in the countries you quoted. Actually, I would get amazed if I'd get the job in front of a national.
I have nothing against foreign people working here. I just want the market to need them first.
As you have yourself quoted, there is a number of us working abroad. Why ? Because of the BS we face here with our airlines. The only way to fight this is to have a shortage of labor, that would make the airlines improve their behaviour.
They are just trying to use foreign people at this stage to threaten us to shut up. That is why so many (including me) are against foreign people (at least at this time) working here.
It is not a biased opinion. I would go for a job abroad if it is necessary and interesting for me. I do not expect to get hired because they think I am cool or not. They will hire me (or not) depending on their need. Once the Chinese market has enough pilots, they will send the expats back. I do not see a problem with that.
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Cachorrao,
The brazilian problem is not different from what it's happening in Spain and in Portugal (just to give you two good examples). This industry sucks, period. But I never saw such a shameless initiative as this one. For me this phenomenon is called "xenophobia".
And it is absolutely false that a national has priority over expats on those countries. Like I said before, as long as you comply with the pre-requisites you are good to go. Many experienced brazilian pilots got jobs in front of many nationals (including many air force pilots) on those countries.
Some years ago it was possible to see entire brazilian crews in the cockpit of certain companies, while many nationals were without a job, particularly young or less experienced pilots. Many local FOs had to wait several years for their promotions because of that. And so what? Like I said before, this industry sucks and there's nothing we can do about it.
The same was true with the helicopter market. Many nationals were unemployed while many Brazilian helicopter pilots (dozens of them) got "their" jobs.
Or do you think BS only happens in Brazilian companies? Jeez...
Go to China, India, Korea, ME, Europe and you will be surprised...
The brazilian problem is not different from what it's happening in Spain and in Portugal (just to give you two good examples). This industry sucks, period. But I never saw such a shameless initiative as this one. For me this phenomenon is called "xenophobia".
And it is absolutely false that a national has priority over expats on those countries. Like I said before, as long as you comply with the pre-requisites you are good to go. Many experienced brazilian pilots got jobs in front of many nationals (including many air force pilots) on those countries.
Some years ago it was possible to see entire brazilian crews in the cockpit of certain companies, while many nationals were without a job, particularly young or less experienced pilots. Many local FOs had to wait several years for their promotions because of that. And so what? Like I said before, this industry sucks and there's nothing we can do about it.
The same was true with the helicopter market. Many nationals were unemployed while many Brazilian helicopter pilots (dozens of them) got "their" jobs.
Or do you think BS only happens in Brazilian companies? Jeez...
Go to China, India, Korea, ME, Europe and you will be surprised...
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Today the market in Spain or Portugal may suck, but there was a time that it was booming, and that was the time where the pilots went. I remember TAM pilots going to Portugalia because of a lack of Portuguese ones. The planes had to fly. There were no pilots. Foreign work force necessary.
This is not the scenario today in Brazil. The fact that there are so many of us unwilling to come back, or someone like me who is seriously thinking about China, should say something.
We have our differences on the opinion about working here, but I would not call it xenophobia. Each country have their own regulations. I flew a lot to Madrid, and saw a lot of Brazilians being denied entry. There were some cases that were abusive, but in a lot of them Spain (and other EU countries) were deporting people that would be there illegally. That is the country's regulations. The same here about the hiring. If there would be a lack of working force, foreigners would be welcomed.
About the BS... When one goes to China to fly for one of those bootleg airlines, they know they have to cope with BS. It is a money-BS trade.
TAM is on Star Alliance. It is the flagship carrier. Yet, is managed like a back yard bus company.
Some protectionism is good. For example, had the US been protectionist for their internal market, China would not be as big as it is today, and they would not be facing depression.
This is a nice discussion, but I would like it to come back to living in China. Unfortunately, that is something I am looking forward for. And if I do, I will take my whole family. That should tell something for anyone considering working here.
This is not the scenario today in Brazil. The fact that there are so many of us unwilling to come back, or someone like me who is seriously thinking about China, should say something.
We have our differences on the opinion about working here, but I would not call it xenophobia. Each country have their own regulations. I flew a lot to Madrid, and saw a lot of Brazilians being denied entry. There were some cases that were abusive, but in a lot of them Spain (and other EU countries) were deporting people that would be there illegally. That is the country's regulations. The same here about the hiring. If there would be a lack of working force, foreigners would be welcomed.
About the BS... When one goes to China to fly for one of those bootleg airlines, they know they have to cope with BS. It is a money-BS trade.
TAM is on Star Alliance. It is the flagship carrier. Yet, is managed like a back yard bus company.
Some protectionism is good. For example, had the US been protectionist for their internal market, China would not be as big as it is today, and they would not be facing depression.
This is a nice discussion, but I would like it to come back to living in China. Unfortunately, that is something I am looking forward for. And if I do, I will take my whole family. That should tell something for anyone considering working here.
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It is all what you make of it here in China. It is a great culture and learning place here and a rich history and diverse society but also all the negative things you hear do exist. The best schools are relatively expensive but far cheaper than the middle East. If your airline will pay all or part then it helps considerably. Many Chinese carriers now offer some type of education allowance for kids. They have had to get competitive with what the Middle East is offering. There are some excellent Ex-Pat communities in most major cities and many thriving communities and jobs here as the economy expands. China has some great places to travel, see and tour and is also a good jumping off point to other Asian cities. Travel using ID 75/90 tickets is offered by most airlines but generally only on your particular airline. Jumpseating is available domestically but very difficult for International travel and only on your own airline. The pay in China now is one of the highest in the world but there are many many hurdles to land a job and keep and maintain a job in China. Some of these hurdles are Interview, Sim assessment, Chinese ATP. Initial type and recurrent checks, MEDICALS, family and personal situations among others. There is lots to offer and see and do while here but not for the inexperienced or unprepared.
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Shameless proctecionism?? Check out in the US or in EU if you find any brazilian flying without a green card or EU passport. Thats almost the same. Get a brazilian passport and you are gonna be very welcome here in Brazil... May be you can marry to some of our beutiful women someday..
[QUOTE]Get a brazilian passport and you are gonna be very welcome here in Brazil[QUOTE]
So I just get a flight to Rio and get a passport. That's novel. I can think of about fifty million Somalis, Ethiopian, Afghans etc., right behind me.
So I just get a flight to Rio and get a passport. That's novel. I can think of about fifty million Somalis, Ethiopian, Afghans etc., right behind me.
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Haikou is not a great place for expats. There are very few there, in fact. It is much more like Vietnam, culturally. Weather is really poor most of the year. During the wet season there is a massive thunderstorm building over the city every day. You can use it as a navigation aid most of the time.
It was offered as a base for us at the airline I worked for. No one chose it. There will be no western health care facilities or schools.
It was offered as a base for us at the airline I worked for. No one chose it. There will be no western health care facilities or schools.
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Thanks again for you help. Now back to ground zero. My life looks like a Tetris game. All the pieces have to fit. Job, pollution, school, hospital and quarantine. Sometimes I miss the easiness of being single.
USMCProbe, Kunming is another place that I may go to. Any insider look on the place ? Thanks.
USMCProbe, Kunming is another place that I may go to. Any insider look on the place ? Thanks.
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Chuleyes - Haikou "should" have Int'l schools... My wife was based there and we still have an apartment there, said so... LOL
Kunming is a bigger city and should have a school as it's the capital Wunnan province. Never the lower level of pollution that HAK, but way cleaner than other cities in China.
At this point China will be my last option due to all the reasons stated here...
Kunming is a bigger city and should have a school as it's the capital Wunnan province. Never the lower level of pollution that HAK, but way cleaner than other cities in China.
At this point China will be my last option due to all the reasons stated here...
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Kunming?
You are probably looking at China Eastern or Lucky Air. I was a Lucky Air pilot for 6 months (not by choice). Long story.
For me Kunming is pretty good, China-wise. I am not sure for you if you have family and need schools. I can't answer yeah or nay. Google foreign consulates Kunming. If there are a lot of consulates there might be some schools/medical facilities.
I like the city. Fairly clean air, decent expat community. I would take it 10X over Haikou. But if you have family, I am not sure I would choose either.
Lucky Air should be a decent gig. Should. Not 100%.
You are probably looking at China Eastern or Lucky Air. I was a Lucky Air pilot for 6 months (not by choice). Long story.
For me Kunming is pretty good, China-wise. I am not sure for you if you have family and need schools. I can't answer yeah or nay. Google foreign consulates Kunming. If there are a lot of consulates there might be some schools/medical facilities.
I like the city. Fairly clean air, decent expat community. I would take it 10X over Haikou. But if you have family, I am not sure I would choose either.
Lucky Air should be a decent gig. Should. Not 100%.
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Kunming Lucky Air
I just passed the CAAC simulator check in Lucky Air. The company looks good and the people there are friendly. The city Kunming is located in southwest of China, with good climate, I heard it is called Sping city in China. I asked my agent about international school in Kunming city. They told me Kunming international school's tuition fee is around 14,000USD per year. It is very expensive, but less than Beijing, Shanghai and Shenzhen.
Anyway, it seems the company needs a lot of foreign pilots, they even start to recruit A320 and B737 type rate and non type rate captains.
Anyway, it seems the company needs a lot of foreign pilots, they even start to recruit A320 and B737 type rate and non type rate captains.
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@DayandNightFlight:
First post, in poor English telling us how Kunming is called Spring City in China. Definitely not involved in recruitment for the airline..
To get back on topic, anyone intentionally raising a family with children in Mainland China should be charged by the International Criminal Court for Human Rights violations.
First post, in poor English telling us how Kunming is called Spring City in China. Definitely not involved in recruitment for the airline..
To get back on topic, anyone intentionally raising a family with children in Mainland China should be charged by the International Criminal Court for Human Rights violations.