Writ plea against engaging foreign pilots in India ...
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@phil
You read me wrong, I never stated that expats are treated the same way as locals. I said that the contract they sign meets similar level of enforceability as a locals contract. Of course they sign different contracts.
If a local's income tax is held by the company, I am sure he will report it to Income Tax Authorities, everything said and done Income tax is an issue of personal liability, when the taxman come none can say that my company took responsibilty to pay that. The expats on the other hand who doesn't have a pan card, I believe had intention to have his income taxed in other state.
9w pilots squatted, what did they get.... the union got disbanded, they got a pay cut, and after two years when India was seeing a near double digit inflation they got a 3% raise and promise of accumulated overtime pay in installments.
If its hot and sweaty, its for both. And if you don't get my point that doesn't make me naive. Although I don't mind that address.
By the way Indian laws don't prohibit expat pilots from making trade unions, its their choice that they don't. So don't complain of not having rights, which you by choice waived off.
You read me wrong, I never stated that expats are treated the same way as locals. I said that the contract they sign meets similar level of enforceability as a locals contract. Of course they sign different contracts.
If a local's income tax is held by the company, I am sure he will report it to Income Tax Authorities, everything said and done Income tax is an issue of personal liability, when the taxman come none can say that my company took responsibilty to pay that. The expats on the other hand who doesn't have a pan card, I believe had intention to have his income taxed in other state.
9w pilots squatted, what did they get.... the union got disbanded, they got a pay cut, and after two years when India was seeing a near double digit inflation they got a 3% raise and promise of accumulated overtime pay in installments.
If its hot and sweaty, its for both. And if you don't get my point that doesn't make me naive. Although I don't mind that address.
By the way Indian laws don't prohibit expat pilots from making trade unions, its their choice that they don't. So don't complain of not having rights, which you by choice waived off.
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sincere apologies............to my canine friends, you do not deserve the bonding.
may i express my observation that almost all the pilots in India do not have the views of a slanted few. they are great a bunch, but alas, there will always be some morons in every pool. that they have the idiocy to surface here, and to post messages against their fellow aviators, based on nationality,
is sad.
may i express my observation that almost all the pilots in India do not have the views of a slanted few. they are great a bunch, but alas, there will always be some morons in every pool. that they have the idiocy to surface here, and to post messages against their fellow aviators, based on nationality,
is sad.
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sincere apologies............to my canine friends, you do not deserve the bonding.
may i express my observation that almost all the pilots in India do not have the views of a slanted few. they are great a bunch, but alas, there will always be some morons in every pool. that they have the idiocy to surface here, and to post messages against their fellow aviators, based on nationality,
is sad.
may i express my observation that almost all the pilots in India do not have the views of a slanted few. they are great a bunch, but alas, there will always be some morons in every pool. that they have the idiocy to surface here, and to post messages against their fellow aviators, based on nationality,
is sad.
There are LOTS of Indian national pilots (FOs with over 4000 hours TT and Commanders with 8000+ hours) in Air India, Jet Airways who are fed up of certain foreigners with an apalling attitude towards Indians .
and this is again because of the few creepy expats trying to spread venom and promote hatred amongst flying fraternity.
as Indair said, constructive criticism is welcome, not insulting, maligning and ridiculing.
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@rdr
i agree to the fact that in a profession like aviation, lines shouldn't be drawn on the basis of nationality, but I would then also want all the pilots working in an airline to go through the same standards and procedures, there shouldn't be any difference in recuitment, employment benefits and remuneration offered to pilots of the same cadre. If and when that happens things will be unpleasant. Infact at the onset of this career I really thought that this profession would be the most structured and organized career to be in, but after getting into it I realised how messed up things really are!
i agree to the fact that in a profession like aviation, lines shouldn't be drawn on the basis of nationality, but I would then also want all the pilots working in an airline to go through the same standards and procedures, there shouldn't be any difference in recuitment, employment benefits and remuneration offered to pilots of the same cadre. If and when that happens things will be unpleasant. Infact at the onset of this career I really thought that this profession would be the most structured and organized career to be in, but after getting into it I realised how messed up things really are!
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@rdr
In this dicussion, there are people trying to exchange point of views, you mentioned about teaching a bunch of frustrated mongrels.
Now that sure is not in best taste, but I remarked 'interesting' because you didn't specify who is trying to teach who.
Then you come apologised to your canine friends, I was wondering who these friends could be so I looked up for mongrel...
Mongrel - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Main Entry: mon·grel
Pronunciation: \ˈmäŋ-grəl, ˈməŋ-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, probably from mong mixture, short for ymong, from Old English gemong crowd — more at among
Date: 15th century
1 : an individual resulting from the interbreeding of diverse breeds or strains; especially : one of unknown ancestry
2 : a cross between types of persons or things
— mongrel adjective
— mon·grel·i·za·tion \ˌmäŋ-grə-lə-ˈzā-shən, ˌməŋ-\ noun
— mon·grel·ize \ˈmäŋ-grə-ˌlīz, ˈməŋ-\ transitive verb
In hindsight, you should not have expressed your opinion. Because your opinion is "there are a great bunch, because they think like myself", and "there are morons because they don't think the way I do"
Now I will take a small break, and re-read all the thread and try to identify where on pilot has spoken against other fellow aviators based on thier nationality.
Allow me.
In this dicussion, there are people trying to exchange point of views, you mentioned about teaching a bunch of frustrated mongrels.
Now that sure is not in best taste, but I remarked 'interesting' because you didn't specify who is trying to teach who.
Then you come apologised to your canine friends, I was wondering who these friends could be so I looked up for mongrel...
Mongrel - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Main Entry: mon·grel
Pronunciation: \ˈmäŋ-grəl, ˈməŋ-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, probably from mong mixture, short for ymong, from Old English gemong crowd — more at among
Date: 15th century
1 : an individual resulting from the interbreeding of diverse breeds or strains; especially : one of unknown ancestry
2 : a cross between types of persons or things
— mongrel adjective
— mon·grel·i·za·tion \ˌmäŋ-grə-lə-ˈzā-shən, ˌməŋ-\ noun
— mon·grel·ize \ˈmäŋ-grə-ˌlīz, ˈməŋ-\ transitive verb
may i express my observation that almost all the pilots in India do not have the views of a slanted few. they are great a bunch, but alas, there will always be some morons in every pool. that they have the idiocy to surface here, and to post messages against their fellow aviators, based on nationality,
is sad.
is sad.
In hindsight, you should not have expressed your opinion. Because your opinion is "there are a great bunch, because they think like myself", and "there are morons because they don't think the way I do"
Now I will take a small break, and re-read all the thread and try to identify where on pilot has spoken against other fellow aviators based on thier nationality.
Allow me.
Last edited by jimmygill; 19th Jun 2010 at 14:44.
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Summary for rdr
1. The original thread, little chances that it may have been written
by a pilot. Mention that different medical standards allowed for
expat pilots are violation of Article 14 of Indian Constitution
which guarantees equality before the law.
3.CaptainProp displayed his paronoia by connecting this writ petition
with mangalore crash
4.TopTup said the measure towards equality is good but also needed
expanded to pilot proficiency checks als... good point.
5.doubleu-anker came up with his 3rd world bull**** arguement
6.burger_thing thought this all is not good taste, so wanted
mods to step in
7. Saurabh came up with the idea of how expats are needed,
some of us like Saurabh consider the question "expats are
needed or not?" as settled and asnwer is affirmative, some
other within us thinks the question is not settled.
8. alphabravo... countered doubleu-anker with a generous amount of
sarcasm,
9. doubleu aknowledged it was fair comment.
10.alphabravo.. took upon himself to explain his point of view to
saurabh, to be fair with alphabravo none else can explain his
point to saurabh, after all thats his point, he was as usual
sarcastic but not at all acerbic, I don't think he read
frsutrated
11. rdr comes in the scene, addresses alphabravo.. , tells him
(indirectly) that he is immature, and he is bitching, hinted
that Mangal Pandeys and Bhagat Singhs are no good for evolution
of indian aviation,
remind that this is an international forum, and continued on
deriding Indians by his cyclist-merc joke.
12. Mongrel jimmy comes in and asks rdr if he really has some reasoning.
13. Alphabravo, takes up the bait... and asks a similar question as jimmy
did, continues qand throws in another Frog in Well story..frankly I
thought it was out of place.
14.Burger thing, came again, and said this Bull**** will not stand.. mods!
15. FlyingManutd, entered... overall wrote without any hatred to anyone..
he did bash up doubleu a bit though, and introduced too many
generalisations, despite that construing his post to be anti expat
will be only fascination
16. xuejiesandi, nice name, is it from Manga?, did some research and
exposed doubleu addresses all 3rd world with excretionary adjective..
17 FlyingManutd came up with some parallel thinking..
18. mongrel jimmy, posts videos from one of his most admired researchers
Hans Rosaling, I wish at least a few would have seen it..
I will continue it, but I din't find 'anti-expat'ism in these many posts..
rdr, I am trying to figure out how you think...
by a pilot. Mention that different medical standards allowed for
expat pilots are violation of Article 14 of Indian Constitution
which guarantees equality before the law.
3.CaptainProp displayed his paronoia by connecting this writ petition
with mangalore crash
4.TopTup said the measure towards equality is good but also needed
expanded to pilot proficiency checks als... good point.
5.doubleu-anker came up with his 3rd world bull**** arguement
6.burger_thing thought this all is not good taste, so wanted
mods to step in
7. Saurabh came up with the idea of how expats are needed,
some of us like Saurabh consider the question "expats are
needed or not?" as settled and asnwer is affirmative, some
other within us thinks the question is not settled.
8. alphabravo... countered doubleu-anker with a generous amount of
sarcasm,
9. doubleu aknowledged it was fair comment.
10.alphabravo.. took upon himself to explain his point of view to
saurabh, to be fair with alphabravo none else can explain his
point to saurabh, after all thats his point, he was as usual
sarcastic but not at all acerbic, I don't think he read
frsutrated
11. rdr comes in the scene, addresses alphabravo.. , tells him
(indirectly) that he is immature, and he is bitching, hinted
that Mangal Pandeys and Bhagat Singhs are no good for evolution
of indian aviation,
remind that this is an international forum, and continued on
deriding Indians by his cyclist-merc joke.
12. Mongrel jimmy comes in and asks rdr if he really has some reasoning.
13. Alphabravo, takes up the bait... and asks a similar question as jimmy
did, continues qand throws in another Frog in Well story..frankly I
thought it was out of place.
14.Burger thing, came again, and said this Bull**** will not stand.. mods!
15. FlyingManutd, entered... overall wrote without any hatred to anyone..
he did bash up doubleu a bit though, and introduced too many
generalisations, despite that construing his post to be anti expat
will be only fascination
16. xuejiesandi, nice name, is it from Manga?, did some research and
exposed doubleu addresses all 3rd world with excretionary adjective..
17 FlyingManutd came up with some parallel thinking..
18. mongrel jimmy, posts videos from one of his most admired researchers
Hans Rosaling, I wish at least a few would have seen it..
I will continue it, but I din't find 'anti-expat'ism in these many posts..
rdr, I am trying to figure out how you think...
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I think all this can be summed as Indian despise expats speaking ill of their country, least of all their aviation sector. We also would not like (and do not like) foreigners coming to our shores speaking ill of our country. Understandable....but:
Many here defend the undefendable about the actual, real and present seriously bad and dangerous state of Indian aviation. Expats from the US, Brazil, Mexico, Italy, Russia, Australia, NZ, Spain, Italy, Serbia...from all walks of aviation background experiences such as military (in action and peaceful, fighter and transport types), regional & domestic airlines, float planes, carrier ops, turboprops, with tens of thousands of hours experience, etc, etc, etc, yet they (we) are all WRONG EXCEPT FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN OUTSIDE OF THE INDIAN AVIATION ENVIRONMENT.
All the people aren't always wrong all the time.
So, don't dare comment that your FO doesn't know what V1 is or the rules governing performance in contaminated runway ops, that TRI's, TRE's and safety departments are corrupt despite the evidence & first hand accounts, let alone what correct RT is or how to use it, that kids rant (and believe!) that with 175 hrs they are just as qualified to fly a heavy jet transport as an experienced 20,000 hr pilot, or the ATC capabilities, infrastructure.....And to mentioned the inherent, systematic and diabolical corruption is just plain rude as a foreigner!
If the DGCA aviation medicals are so strict & difficult, how do the overweight, chain smoking (on the flighdeck of course), unfit local Capts pass? (Yeah, yeah, we all know the answer: The Rupee is more powerful than the stethoscope!)
From recent murmurings, the unfortunate and sad AIE accident has revealed some new findings into the corrupt system of expat contracts. Latest is that expats were paid $15k-$16k USD per month (Incredible, eh?! More than most TRE's get at any other airline!) Then why do they only see about $10k of that? This difference was taken by AI managers and DGCA officials in charge of these expat contracts. All back-hand, illegal & corrupt. So, when an expat's FATA is delayed by a week, or sometimes a month the government (who owns AI!!) still pays the FULL amount yet on these occasions these ba$tards take the FULL amount as the pilot is deemed "unavailable for work" as he is not licensed. When you people learn to look at the system you seem to defend. As I've said before, so much anger is so misplaced.
Sure, we have serious flaws in our own countries, and our aviation sectors are not perfect but they are FAR, FAR, FAR better than what is rampant in India. At the end of the day the traveling public suffers, the Indian tax payer suffers, the unemployed Indian CPL holder suffers, and all this is not to mention the diabolical state of training that these poor kids are given and then sent off believing they are bullet-proof and fully equipped to offer the standards of safety required to protect their passengers, as well as themselves.
Is the DGCA medical over-kill? Perhaps.....But instead of focusing on this to get rid of the expats, how about use the LAW, get rid of the rampant corruption and look into what really goes on?
So, again, let's make for a level playing field, if possible? If flying in India expats should not be exempt from standards required of the locals, and the same then MUST go for the standards of training and flying skills. FAIR? What's the worst that can happen? A safer, more transparent, more cost effective airline environment? It may not happen as this will remove money from corrupt officials' coffers.
A final thought: If perhaps 50% of expats would fail the DGCA medical and hence be out of a job, then may I question what percentage of pilots in India (note that includes all pilots, not just Indian!) would fail an independent sim assessment conducted by Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier.....?
Many here defend the undefendable about the actual, real and present seriously bad and dangerous state of Indian aviation. Expats from the US, Brazil, Mexico, Italy, Russia, Australia, NZ, Spain, Italy, Serbia...from all walks of aviation background experiences such as military (in action and peaceful, fighter and transport types), regional & domestic airlines, float planes, carrier ops, turboprops, with tens of thousands of hours experience, etc, etc, etc, yet they (we) are all WRONG EXCEPT FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN OUTSIDE OF THE INDIAN AVIATION ENVIRONMENT.
All the people aren't always wrong all the time.
So, don't dare comment that your FO doesn't know what V1 is or the rules governing performance in contaminated runway ops, that TRI's, TRE's and safety departments are corrupt despite the evidence & first hand accounts, let alone what correct RT is or how to use it, that kids rant (and believe!) that with 175 hrs they are just as qualified to fly a heavy jet transport as an experienced 20,000 hr pilot, or the ATC capabilities, infrastructure.....And to mentioned the inherent, systematic and diabolical corruption is just plain rude as a foreigner!
If the DGCA aviation medicals are so strict & difficult, how do the overweight, chain smoking (on the flighdeck of course), unfit local Capts pass? (Yeah, yeah, we all know the answer: The Rupee is more powerful than the stethoscope!)
From recent murmurings, the unfortunate and sad AIE accident has revealed some new findings into the corrupt system of expat contracts. Latest is that expats were paid $15k-$16k USD per month (Incredible, eh?! More than most TRE's get at any other airline!) Then why do they only see about $10k of that? This difference was taken by AI managers and DGCA officials in charge of these expat contracts. All back-hand, illegal & corrupt. So, when an expat's FATA is delayed by a week, or sometimes a month the government (who owns AI!!) still pays the FULL amount yet on these occasions these ba$tards take the FULL amount as the pilot is deemed "unavailable for work" as he is not licensed. When you people learn to look at the system you seem to defend. As I've said before, so much anger is so misplaced.
Sure, we have serious flaws in our own countries, and our aviation sectors are not perfect but they are FAR, FAR, FAR better than what is rampant in India. At the end of the day the traveling public suffers, the Indian tax payer suffers, the unemployed Indian CPL holder suffers, and all this is not to mention the diabolical state of training that these poor kids are given and then sent off believing they are bullet-proof and fully equipped to offer the standards of safety required to protect their passengers, as well as themselves.
Is the DGCA medical over-kill? Perhaps.....But instead of focusing on this to get rid of the expats, how about use the LAW, get rid of the rampant corruption and look into what really goes on?
So, again, let's make for a level playing field, if possible? If flying in India expats should not be exempt from standards required of the locals, and the same then MUST go for the standards of training and flying skills. FAIR? What's the worst that can happen? A safer, more transparent, more cost effective airline environment? It may not happen as this will remove money from corrupt officials' coffers.
A final thought: If perhaps 50% of expats would fail the DGCA medical and hence be out of a job, then may I question what percentage of pilots in India (note that includes all pilots, not just Indian!) would fail an independent sim assessment conducted by Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier.....?
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@TopTup wrote:
And what is the underlying principle for justifying that preference?
But instead of focusing on this to get rid of the expats, how about use the LAW, get rid of the rampant corruption and look into what really goes on?
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Toptup, as an expat I totally agree with you! great post.
now if only we could go back to flying and doing the job we all enjoy (and of course bitch about....thats human nature) the world would be a great place!
PS as an after thought, its interesting out of all the pprune country/region forums this foreign pilot issue is only mentioned when it comes to India ... I wonder why ?? (no that wasnt a question , we all know why, and yes it does happen in other countries... take China and Vietnam as examples)
now if only we could go back to flying and doing the job we all enjoy (and of course bitch about....thats human nature) the world would be a great place!
PS as an after thought, its interesting out of all the pprune country/region forums this foreign pilot issue is only mentioned when it comes to India ... I wonder why ?? (no that wasnt a question , we all know why, and yes it does happen in other countries... take China and Vietnam as examples)
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jimmy
"And what is the underlying principle for justifying that preference? "
come on man , your comments only instill the fact that you arent truly involved in Indian aviation if you dont know or believe what toptup has posted!
"And what is the underlying principle for justifying that preference? "
come on man , your comments only instill the fact that you arent truly involved in Indian aviation if you dont know or believe what toptup has posted!
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Referring to the few people either stating or defending the democratic system in India [and hence I may assume] legal system.
When the corruption is so obvious, the standards so low, the safety so bad why not turn to the same legal system so proudly mentioned by xuejesandi who wrote:
"We belong to a free, democratic system, if that makes any sense to you. We can & are allowed by our government to question the policy makers, & we can afford to do that. You think that's backward, well! think again...."
So if it's not backward, and is available and works then use it to remove what needs to be removed. Focusing on medical requirements and standards is not wrong per se, but the reason to do so seems only to try & remove expat pilots.
And, I agree. If a pilot, expat or local, does not meet the regulatory agency's criteria then he/she should not hold a license.
So much ammunition is there exposing the corruption, yet it is ignored - or so it seems from this other side of the world.
The underlying principle is that this medical requirement appears to be just another method to get rid of expat pilots. However everyone seems happy to turn a blind eye to the blatant corruption surrounding the entire expat contacts system, or the grossly overweight, chain smoking, unfit local pilot who "some how" get's their medical renewed every year. No one cares about about the dangerously low training standards. Get rid of the bad and keep the good. Again, what's the worst that can happen?
So if you are allowed to question policy makers, then question those corrupt policy makers screwing the AI / AIE system over for nothing but pure greed.
When the corruption is so obvious, the standards so low, the safety so bad why not turn to the same legal system so proudly mentioned by xuejesandi who wrote:
"We belong to a free, democratic system, if that makes any sense to you. We can & are allowed by our government to question the policy makers, & we can afford to do that. You think that's backward, well! think again...."
So if it's not backward, and is available and works then use it to remove what needs to be removed. Focusing on medical requirements and standards is not wrong per se, but the reason to do so seems only to try & remove expat pilots.
And, I agree. If a pilot, expat or local, does not meet the regulatory agency's criteria then he/she should not hold a license.
So much ammunition is there exposing the corruption, yet it is ignored - or so it seems from this other side of the world.
The underlying principle is that this medical requirement appears to be just another method to get rid of expat pilots. However everyone seems happy to turn a blind eye to the blatant corruption surrounding the entire expat contacts system, or the grossly overweight, chain smoking, unfit local pilot who "some how" get's their medical renewed every year. No one cares about about the dangerously low training standards. Get rid of the bad and keep the good. Again, what's the worst that can happen?
So if you are allowed to question policy makers, then question those corrupt policy makers screwing the AI / AIE system over for nothing but pure greed.
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A few years ago I applied for a job as a Expat Captain with an Indian Carrier.....But unfortunately or maybe fortunately did not get the job.
The Sim ride went like this.....
On the first approach and landing I touched down on the thousand foot marker....BUT the landing was beyond the prescribed 1.65Gs force on touchdown (even though Boeing says 2.5gs is acceptable)....so there was one strike against me......
Being the kind gentlemen that they were, they allowed me a second chance....On the 2nd approach I came in a bit fast and high.....and then executed a GO AROUND.....(I had forgotten my pen at home so when they hauled me into the Chief pilots office, I was unable to pen a report as to why I executed this unneccessary maneuver). "SAFETY SCHMAFETY"
Strike 2
Finally, they said that we would redo the sim the next day and that in the meanwhile, I should go and get my DGCA medical....When I was at AFCME getting my medical, I was told by the Dr. that I didnt smoke enough cigarettes and wasnt overweight enough, so he couldnt issue me a DGCA Class I medical...He said to come back in 6 months after smoking at least a pack a day of WILLS and also he told me to eat at least 2-3 wada pavs and 20 pakoda per day and then in 6 months he would issue me the Coveted DGCA Class I medical....
Oh well Strike 3.....
I did not go back in 6 months....so I did not get the job....
Thats My story.....Unfortunate ....Dont you think....
The Sim ride went like this.....
On the first approach and landing I touched down on the thousand foot marker....BUT the landing was beyond the prescribed 1.65Gs force on touchdown (even though Boeing says 2.5gs is acceptable)....so there was one strike against me......
Being the kind gentlemen that they were, they allowed me a second chance....On the 2nd approach I came in a bit fast and high.....and then executed a GO AROUND.....(I had forgotten my pen at home so when they hauled me into the Chief pilots office, I was unable to pen a report as to why I executed this unneccessary maneuver). "SAFETY SCHMAFETY"
Strike 2
Finally, they said that we would redo the sim the next day and that in the meanwhile, I should go and get my DGCA medical....When I was at AFCME getting my medical, I was told by the Dr. that I didnt smoke enough cigarettes and wasnt overweight enough, so he couldnt issue me a DGCA Class I medical...He said to come back in 6 months after smoking at least a pack a day of WILLS and also he told me to eat at least 2-3 wada pavs and 20 pakoda per day and then in 6 months he would issue me the Coveted DGCA Class I medical....
Oh well Strike 3.....
I did not go back in 6 months....so I did not get the job....
Thats My story.....Unfortunate ....Dont you think....
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The underlying principle is that this medical requirement appears to be just another method to get rid of expat pilots. However everyone seems happy to turn a blind eye to the blatant corruption surrounding the entire expat contacts system, or the grossly overweight, chain smoking, unfit local pilot who "some how" get's their medical renewed every year. No one cares about about the dangerously low training standards. Get rid of the bad and keep the good. Again, what's the worst that can happen?
2. You say Action A seems to have sinister intentions and Action B is apparently devoid of any such intentions, and hence Action B instead of Action A.
Now here is the root of the problem, you took it upon yourself to judge the sinisterness of intentions of Action A, and your judgement was more in nature of assumption, may be based on your empirical experience.
I may not fault your reasoning, but I will fault the way you got the empirical experience. Supporting argument comes from the case of 'chain-smoking-grossly-overweight-unfit-indian-aviator', you declared him unfit without being an authority on aviation medicine, and from that easily concluded that the Indian Medical System is Corrupt too, without ever having direct experience of the Indian Medical System.
And I asked, 'if there is any justifying principle for that preference' because I suspected there could be none unless you see the issue from a prejudiced point of view.
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Finally, they said that we would redo the sim the next day and that in the meanwhile, I should go and get my DGCA medical....When I was at AFCME getting my medical, I was told by the Dr. that I didnt smoke enough cigarettes and wasnt overweight enough, so he couldnt issue me a DGCA Class I medical...He said to come back in 6 months after smoking at least a pack a day of WILLS and also he told me to eat at least 2-3 wada pavs and 20 pakoda per day and then in 6 months he would issue me the Coveted DGCA Class I medical....
And you want us to laugh on that... do you?
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@itsbrokenagain
I am of point of view that there are certain things amongst the ones that toptup has said, which TopTup himself shouldn't believe in.
But you are right I am not truly involved in aviation these days, be it Indian or Expatian.
And I like how you always support TopTup, it must be nice to have a friend like you.
Enjoy
Naive Mongrel Jimmy
come on man , your comments only instill the fact that you arent truly involved in Indian aviation if you dont know or believe what toptup has posted!
But you are right I am not truly involved in aviation these days, be it Indian or Expatian.
And I like how you always support TopTup, it must be nice to have a friend like you.
Enjoy
Naive Mongrel Jimmy
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@TopTup
Your post in this forum or others are always eye opening as an EXPAT point of view flying in India or showing how to do standard RT and most of thoughts are well taken by pilot community ...I and most of indian guys flying along side expats know how they are getting screwed on various stages of licensing and airline operations but when locals are being held by neck by same authorities be it DGCA or air carriers ,u can't tend to put a stamp on expat's issues regarding contracts stuffs or others when you are yourself wounded (locals pilots) and fighting for your right and are being told by concerning people that you cant be put for upgradation reason u and everyone knows .....both set of community is being played on and i seriously feel this whole system needs a overhauling and can be far more better than current state but its not that bad either than whats its being made off .....and for sake of aviation in India it needed an urgent lift and being a democracy we have both good and ills of it but what few people from this democratic system has done is bring an issue to mould it to suit them ( Expat Issue ) for there needs ...And yes Indian Med examination is more strict than other ICAO states and i have 1st hand experience from ICAO and Indian CLass 1....
what this thread stated was that both set of pilots ( expat & local ) should get to go through same set of med procedures and thats it ....but few of fellow ppruners have taken it out context by suggesting expats would either run or fluke it which is absurd and got similar absurd replies from expats..a medically perfect pilot will get passed whether its expat or indian ...
Every one has there opinion to state but most of your replies are venomous and you tend to trash some1 for being a baby pilot or low hour guy who just happens to be lucky enough to get into shinny jets doesn't go down good when you and every other pilot where a low hour guy in their time and as u might know India has almost no general aviation to bend upon ..every1 tends to get better by experience so till we and lucky baby's on jets get enough time there will be errors that im sure can be rectify ..rest about what you said of operational standards and certain checks are rampant but not everyone needs a carrots to pass there SIM checks its just like putting each and every expat in medcially grounded state,is in't??...so some get favours some dont rest gets crippled...
When we as Indians can work in NASA/IBM and various BIG american and western companies so surely outsiders to work in level field here but if certain measure are taken for employment of outsiders does not mean they are not welcomed here to work ...each and every industry has some counter measures to protect there own be it Visa's or any other means and what locals need is that each and person should get same treatment as per experience in current situation ..some might bitch about it some might take it as is it ...
@rdr
What you are trying to show is either u got busted by some frustrated mongrel that keeps you reminding of this or got canned by your teacher who asked you to be polite but it hasn't worked as yet...Bringing up nationality for comparision is all what you got then giving your apologies......
Your post in this forum or others are always eye opening as an EXPAT point of view flying in India or showing how to do standard RT and most of thoughts are well taken by pilot community ...I and most of indian guys flying along side expats know how they are getting screwed on various stages of licensing and airline operations but when locals are being held by neck by same authorities be it DGCA or air carriers ,u can't tend to put a stamp on expat's issues regarding contracts stuffs or others when you are yourself wounded (locals pilots) and fighting for your right and are being told by concerning people that you cant be put for upgradation reason u and everyone knows .....both set of community is being played on and i seriously feel this whole system needs a overhauling and can be far more better than current state but its not that bad either than whats its being made off .....and for sake of aviation in India it needed an urgent lift and being a democracy we have both good and ills of it but what few people from this democratic system has done is bring an issue to mould it to suit them ( Expat Issue ) for there needs ...And yes Indian Med examination is more strict than other ICAO states and i have 1st hand experience from ICAO and Indian CLass 1....
what this thread stated was that both set of pilots ( expat & local ) should get to go through same set of med procedures and thats it ....but few of fellow ppruners have taken it out context by suggesting expats would either run or fluke it which is absurd and got similar absurd replies from expats..a medically perfect pilot will get passed whether its expat or indian ...
Every one has there opinion to state but most of your replies are venomous and you tend to trash some1 for being a baby pilot or low hour guy who just happens to be lucky enough to get into shinny jets doesn't go down good when you and every other pilot where a low hour guy in their time and as u might know India has almost no general aviation to bend upon ..every1 tends to get better by experience so till we and lucky baby's on jets get enough time there will be errors that im sure can be rectify ..rest about what you said of operational standards and certain checks are rampant but not everyone needs a carrots to pass there SIM checks its just like putting each and every expat in medcially grounded state,is in't??...so some get favours some dont rest gets crippled...
When we as Indians can work in NASA/IBM and various BIG american and western companies so surely outsiders to work in level field here but if certain measure are taken for employment of outsiders does not mean they are not welcomed here to work ...each and every industry has some counter measures to protect there own be it Visa's or any other means and what locals need is that each and person should get same treatment as per experience in current situation ..some might bitch about it some might take it as is it ...
@rdr
dont waste your time trying to educate a bunch of frustrated mongrels who just dont have it.
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Jimmy: Come on, get real. You seem to want to argue for argument's sake. I do not need medical credentials to view a grossly over-weight, chain smoking pilot / person as being unfit. Common sense. I have more than enough credentials (tertiary and flight / airline experience) to gain an educated point of view. And even without them common sense & logic should prevail.
FlyingManUtd: I'll try to answer your remarks to me. "Try" because the grammar, spelling and reasoning is so damn bad. I've read it a few times so I will "try" to follow what you wrote. The "SYSTEM" is void of transparency, ripe with corruption and void of morality. This affects all pilots in India. But by exposing the corruption locals can use the Indian democratic system you defend & believe will work so well. But, it seems you don't want to look at these facts.
I don't trash all wannabes. I trash wannabes OF ANY NATIONALITY fitting the mould of:
- demanding jobs on jets without an ounce of experience outside of a flying school in the place of highly experienced pilots with vast experience and track records;
- who refuse to get off their arrogant tails to apply for any job, anywhere that doesn't involve a shiny jet (because they believe to fly something like a C210 or even turboprop is beneath them);
- who rant on this forum without the experience, knowledge, let alone reasoning skills, based only on national pride and void of ANY REAL aviation experience;
- who chest beat about Indians working at NASA, IBM, etc as some sort of backbone demonstrating that these individuals hence justify a wannabe's greatness to fly a shiny jet. These "Indians" have proven skills and knowledge that these companies seek since those skills are better than the local talent.
I RESPECT & ADMIRE wannabes who seek knowledge, who accept that the lack of GA in India demands they work harder to study & excel in their training, who seek the hard work demanded of them, and have the humility to appreciate the level of experience they really do have in the scheme of things, embrace it and work to better themselves for the shiny jet job. Yes, they see the bigger picture and they are the ones DESERVING of these jobs and get them with my personal blessing because I trust that where the low training standards will fail them, they will have the fortitude to see it and not accept it.
I wish all those CPL holders only the best when they are accepted to fly a jet. You obviously haven't read my previous posts where I call for them to receive the training they DESERVE and that where able (!!!!) an Indian should ALWAYS be employed over an expat so long as safety is not compromised. But what seems to be uncovered now is that the expat jobs are kept there for greed & due corruption from AI & DGCA officials. You choose not to focus on these issues.
BUT despite all this you kids focus on national pride, and not the despicably corrupt, greedy and pathetic nature of your aviation sector that robs your taxes, your jobs and your industry. I thought what I posted earlier about the corrupt AI & DGCA officers would have raised blood pressure levels, but no. You kids are so short sighted, so paralyzed by self grandeur regarding the "job by birth right" than to bother about the cause for all this. SYSTEMIC, OBVIOUS, GREEDY CORRUPTION that fails YOU in getting a job, least of all the earnt, deserved and need for proper training.
Finally, you mention "venom". If you mean my anger & frustration at this rampant corruption, at the attitude of some kids demanding jobs they are not qualified for by way of experience let alone maturity, or skill all backed by [criminally] negligent training standards, let alone the same [criminally] negligent] safety department at AI? You want to define it as venomous? So be it. I am very passionate about this industry & this drives me to despise the levels it has & continues to sink to throughout the world, not just India (although from my experience this is some of the worst in the world).
So, as always you will put your blinkers on, show no attempt to chase the root of the issues in Indian aviation and search for any other way to remove the experience & standards many (not all) expats bring. On this occasion it is the DGCA aviation medical requirement. Tomorrow it will be something else. I agree that anyone flying in India should comply with all local requirements, without exception. I only argue that the same be said for flying skills, aviation, airline and heavy jet transport knowledge. You want a level playing field? Then subject yourselves to independent scrutiny in a simulator whereby lazy, incompetent, corrupt TRI / TRE's cannot influence things. Expats from many, many, many countries and from many, many, many walks of extensive aviation experience borne from many, many, many different sectors all say the same thing about the Indian aviation industry (how unsafe, corrupt and dangerous it is)....Yet they (we) are all wrong. Go figure.
You can't see what you refuse to look at and you can't change what you deny needs fixing. And so the standards keep getting lower......
FlyingManUtd: I'll try to answer your remarks to me. "Try" because the grammar, spelling and reasoning is so damn bad. I've read it a few times so I will "try" to follow what you wrote. The "SYSTEM" is void of transparency, ripe with corruption and void of morality. This affects all pilots in India. But by exposing the corruption locals can use the Indian democratic system you defend & believe will work so well. But, it seems you don't want to look at these facts.
I don't trash all wannabes. I trash wannabes OF ANY NATIONALITY fitting the mould of:
- demanding jobs on jets without an ounce of experience outside of a flying school in the place of highly experienced pilots with vast experience and track records;
- who refuse to get off their arrogant tails to apply for any job, anywhere that doesn't involve a shiny jet (because they believe to fly something like a C210 or even turboprop is beneath them);
- who rant on this forum without the experience, knowledge, let alone reasoning skills, based only on national pride and void of ANY REAL aviation experience;
- who chest beat about Indians working at NASA, IBM, etc as some sort of backbone demonstrating that these individuals hence justify a wannabe's greatness to fly a shiny jet. These "Indians" have proven skills and knowledge that these companies seek since those skills are better than the local talent.
I RESPECT & ADMIRE wannabes who seek knowledge, who accept that the lack of GA in India demands they work harder to study & excel in their training, who seek the hard work demanded of them, and have the humility to appreciate the level of experience they really do have in the scheme of things, embrace it and work to better themselves for the shiny jet job. Yes, they see the bigger picture and they are the ones DESERVING of these jobs and get them with my personal blessing because I trust that where the low training standards will fail them, they will have the fortitude to see it and not accept it.
I wish all those CPL holders only the best when they are accepted to fly a jet. You obviously haven't read my previous posts where I call for them to receive the training they DESERVE and that where able (!!!!) an Indian should ALWAYS be employed over an expat so long as safety is not compromised. But what seems to be uncovered now is that the expat jobs are kept there for greed & due corruption from AI & DGCA officials. You choose not to focus on these issues.
BUT despite all this you kids focus on national pride, and not the despicably corrupt, greedy and pathetic nature of your aviation sector that robs your taxes, your jobs and your industry. I thought what I posted earlier about the corrupt AI & DGCA officers would have raised blood pressure levels, but no. You kids are so short sighted, so paralyzed by self grandeur regarding the "job by birth right" than to bother about the cause for all this. SYSTEMIC, OBVIOUS, GREEDY CORRUPTION that fails YOU in getting a job, least of all the earnt, deserved and need for proper training.
Finally, you mention "venom". If you mean my anger & frustration at this rampant corruption, at the attitude of some kids demanding jobs they are not qualified for by way of experience let alone maturity, or skill all backed by [criminally] negligent training standards, let alone the same [criminally] negligent] safety department at AI? You want to define it as venomous? So be it. I am very passionate about this industry & this drives me to despise the levels it has & continues to sink to throughout the world, not just India (although from my experience this is some of the worst in the world).
So, as always you will put your blinkers on, show no attempt to chase the root of the issues in Indian aviation and search for any other way to remove the experience & standards many (not all) expats bring. On this occasion it is the DGCA aviation medical requirement. Tomorrow it will be something else. I agree that anyone flying in India should comply with all local requirements, without exception. I only argue that the same be said for flying skills, aviation, airline and heavy jet transport knowledge. You want a level playing field? Then subject yourselves to independent scrutiny in a simulator whereby lazy, incompetent, corrupt TRI / TRE's cannot influence things. Expats from many, many, many countries and from many, many, many walks of extensive aviation experience borne from many, many, many different sectors all say the same thing about the Indian aviation industry (how unsafe, corrupt and dangerous it is)....Yet they (we) are all wrong. Go figure.
You can't see what you refuse to look at and you can't change what you deny needs fixing. And so the standards keep getting lower......
Last edited by TopTup; 20th Jun 2010 at 03:36.
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Top up, you can't win an argument with an ignorant person. I have had many FO's who think this is the best training in the world. When I ask them how do you know, I get some very funny answers. Not a single answer is based from experience training in other countries. They just drink the coolaid and are happy. I think the corruption is so rampant, they see it as normal and don't assosiate it with any sort of problem.