Unemployed CPL Holders!
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Unemployed CPL Holders!
I have been following this forum for quite some time now very carefully reading and understanding what everyone has to say for the current scenario.
I fail to understand why are the Unemployed CPL Holders made to feel like junk in discussions. i totally understand the low hours of experience / CRM etc. but for once if we see, the problem is with the whole management of the Aviation Industry from the Govt to the Private sector people.
I totally understand and know that 3-4000 CPL holders on the whole may not land up a job in the next 10 yrs. But has the government left any other choice than just remain 250 hour wonders?
The main reason we went out of india to train was becuz there was no daymn infrastructure here. Even though there was a boom in the industry what about the training industry? is there a charted plan. A Straight NO.
Even if some of the people land up jobs the others cant even work in Flight schools here. Even the flight schools are now taking undue advantage of the Scenario of being unemployed and setting up Instructor Scams etc.
Just because we went out to train, doesnt make all of us lousy. Some may be way better than the F/o'z of today in airlines.
Theres just isnt the right structured plan for anything weather it is for testing knowledge or testing Aptitude.
Well the blame game could keep going on but the main thing here is to understand that this huge lot of CPL holders are sooner of later going to be flying in the Indian skies so rather than making us look like EGO MANIAC, JOB HUNGRY / CUT THROAT / RICH fathers money wasting Brats please help us become better equipped for the times to come either by sharing experiences here or advising us on things u think we require.
Thanks
I fail to understand why are the Unemployed CPL Holders made to feel like junk in discussions. i totally understand the low hours of experience / CRM etc. but for once if we see, the problem is with the whole management of the Aviation Industry from the Govt to the Private sector people.
I totally understand and know that 3-4000 CPL holders on the whole may not land up a job in the next 10 yrs. But has the government left any other choice than just remain 250 hour wonders?
The main reason we went out of india to train was becuz there was no daymn infrastructure here. Even though there was a boom in the industry what about the training industry? is there a charted plan. A Straight NO.
Even if some of the people land up jobs the others cant even work in Flight schools here. Even the flight schools are now taking undue advantage of the Scenario of being unemployed and setting up Instructor Scams etc.
Just because we went out to train, doesnt make all of us lousy. Some may be way better than the F/o'z of today in airlines.
Theres just isnt the right structured plan for anything weather it is for testing knowledge or testing Aptitude.
Well the blame game could keep going on but the main thing here is to understand that this huge lot of CPL holders are sooner of later going to be flying in the Indian skies so rather than making us look like EGO MANIAC, JOB HUNGRY / CUT THROAT / RICH fathers money wasting Brats please help us become better equipped for the times to come either by sharing experiences here or advising us on things u think we require.
Thanks
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.....Just because we went out to train, doesnt make all of us lousy. Some may be way better than the F/o'z of today in airlines....
If you think you're God's gift to aviation. You're not gonna get the help that you deserve....
Be humble and learn... takes time....
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Well learning to spell first and using less slang will be a good start before finding a job.... My only reccommendation would be to go out and get an office job for a few years first while keeping current and gaining some money, this economic condition isn't going to do you any good when your sitting there on your ass all day...
Brian304
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My only reccommendation would be to go out and get an office job for a few years first while keeping current and gaining some money
OR sell copper bangles in a mall somewhere in Effrika!!!!
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Guitarboy: As per my previous posts.... You are the exact reason your country's aviation iindustry is such a mess. even though you haven't got a job flying a multi-million dollar aircraft you think you deserve one without the realms of further study, qualificatioins (above the bare minimum to fly a SE Cessna for money), let alone an ounce of commercial experience. And, when you do get the job you'll strut about the aircraft, order the FA's around as if they are dirt and boast to your friends about how cool you are. And already you deem you and your colleauges standards as being so good. Compared to what? You're Playstation shoot-em-up?!
Most "respectable" airlines recruit pilots with AT LEAST an ATP / ATPL with AT LEAST 500 hrs command on multi engine aircraft and 2000 hrs turbine time. But with your 175 hrs, you're "READY" aren't you!! Forgive me, I used "respectable" in the same realm of AI and the DGCA. Now SAFETY?
AI is a cruel joke played on the travelling public.
Indian aviation is the laughing stock of the world.
Grow up. Go and be productive. Start begging for work ANYWHERE that can get you in an aircraft, be it a C172, C210 or ANYTHING. But like most of your arrogant counterparts, you see such jobs as beneath you. Have you gone out on a road trip to every GA operator in India? That was part of the apprenticeship once upon a time. Now you sit on the internet and b!tch on web sites like this that no one will give you a job. Sounds like you're real committed!!!!!!
There is a light at the ned of the tunnel: just about all the expats I know in that cesspit of corruption, arrogance, mismanagement and life of desperatly dispciable low standars that is AI are leaving as soon as they can. Most of the expat FOs either have or are was my latest update from a friend. So, with your 175 hrs you too will be sitting in a shiny 777 or 747 (unless it too burns up) living life just one close call after another by a Cmdr who COULD NOT hold a job let alone license in a repectable airline or country.
Yeah.... Your arrogance has hit a nerve you may have guessed. Like someone else said, selling bangles by the roadside suits the likes of you better.
Most "respectable" airlines recruit pilots with AT LEAST an ATP / ATPL with AT LEAST 500 hrs command on multi engine aircraft and 2000 hrs turbine time. But with your 175 hrs, you're "READY" aren't you!! Forgive me, I used "respectable" in the same realm of AI and the DGCA. Now SAFETY?
AI is a cruel joke played on the travelling public.Indian aviation is the laughing stock of the world.
Grow up. Go and be productive. Start begging for work ANYWHERE that can get you in an aircraft, be it a C172, C210 or ANYTHING. But like most of your arrogant counterparts, you see such jobs as beneath you. Have you gone out on a road trip to every GA operator in India? That was part of the apprenticeship once upon a time. Now you sit on the internet and b!tch on web sites like this that no one will give you a job. Sounds like you're real committed!!!!!!
There is a light at the ned of the tunnel: just about all the expats I know in that cesspit of corruption, arrogance, mismanagement and life of desperatly dispciable low standars that is AI are leaving as soon as they can. Most of the expat FOs either have or are was my latest update from a friend. So, with your 175 hrs you too will be sitting in a shiny 777 or 747 (unless it too burns up) living life just one close call after another by a Cmdr who COULD NOT hold a job let alone license in a repectable airline or country.
Yeah.... Your arrogance has hit a nerve you may have guessed. Like someone else said, selling bangles by the roadside suits the likes of you better.
Last edited by TopTup; 16th Sep 2009 at 14:55.
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I would like to take the devil’s advocate position for a moment here. I’m not Indian or Brown. I’m a white Canadian born and raised in Canada.
I pose this question to all: Are the Indians really that out of touch or is it we the westerners (Americians, Brits etc) that are out of touch?
They post looking to take a low level entry job in a light jet or turbine PC12 and we call them crazy and arrogant.
Westerners post looking for a ramp job offering to work for next to nothing, pay for type ratings and other training and basically agree to work on the ramp in a non flying job for a couple of years with no signed agreement to even receive a flying position after all that time is invested.
Out of these two groups who is acting like a bangle sales person? Who is acting like they should be treated like dirt, have no expectation of placement in a field for which they have trained and been licensed?
These people have Canadian, US and British licences. They have passed the same exams as all of us.
Did their parents pay for their training; perhaps? But many Westerners get assistance too whether it’s from their parents, student loans, Unemployment Insurance etc.
All pilots the world round suffer from a form of arrogance. Back in the 60’s and 70’s western airline pilots were just as bad. And some are still this way. Heck I see dock hands with the ink still wet on their license acting arrogant at times.
Thinking that we are better just because we spent 2 or 3 years working in the freezing artic before getting a 172 flying gig is arrogant as well. And even if we think that we in the west are less arrogant it’s only because we have allowed ourselves to believe we are not worthy of a decent flying job for the first 10 years of our careers.
I bet Indian pilots sit around wondering why we act the way we do and allow our selves to be treated like orphaned street beggars.
I’ve been a commercial pilot for 15 going on 20 years now. I run a small aviation business and I’ve seen all the sides of this debate. I’m no religious guy but I think the statement “judge not less he be judge” or "he who hath no sin be the first to cast a stone." applies well in this case.
I pose this question to all: Are the Indians really that out of touch or is it we the westerners (Americians, Brits etc) that are out of touch?
They post looking to take a low level entry job in a light jet or turbine PC12 and we call them crazy and arrogant.
Westerners post looking for a ramp job offering to work for next to nothing, pay for type ratings and other training and basically agree to work on the ramp in a non flying job for a couple of years with no signed agreement to even receive a flying position after all that time is invested.
Out of these two groups who is acting like a bangle sales person? Who is acting like they should be treated like dirt, have no expectation of placement in a field for which they have trained and been licensed?
These people have Canadian, US and British licences. They have passed the same exams as all of us.
Did their parents pay for their training; perhaps? But many Westerners get assistance too whether it’s from their parents, student loans, Unemployment Insurance etc.
All pilots the world round suffer from a form of arrogance. Back in the 60’s and 70’s western airline pilots were just as bad. And some are still this way. Heck I see dock hands with the ink still wet on their license acting arrogant at times.
Thinking that we are better just because we spent 2 or 3 years working in the freezing artic before getting a 172 flying gig is arrogant as well. And even if we think that we in the west are less arrogant it’s only because we have allowed ourselves to believe we are not worthy of a decent flying job for the first 10 years of our careers.
I bet Indian pilots sit around wondering why we act the way we do and allow our selves to be treated like orphaned street beggars.
I’ve been a commercial pilot for 15 going on 20 years now. I run a small aviation business and I’ve seen all the sides of this debate. I’m no religious guy but I think the statement “judge not less he be judge” or "he who hath no sin be the first to cast a stone." applies well in this case.
Last edited by kevinsky18; 16th Sep 2009 at 15:52.
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With regards to everyone posting here , i'd like to add my two cents...
Well the industry is at a bad stage now and everyone is wanting to get a good share of the jobs around.
With due respect sir , I feel its about the Indian mentality of a white collar job in our way of thinking if you have been trained to be a Pilot you HAVE to be inside the cockpit flying the aircraft - if you are doing anything else around the airport its not considered a white collar job for a pilot - again its just a general way of how we think!
Agreed... However in the past airlines in India have been recruiting pilots with 250hrs CPL(ME) and w/o type-rating....I guess thats is what is going on in his mind.
@ guitarboy
I understand your concern and frustration. But you need to also consider the fact that there are 4000 odd guys just like us waiting to fly the biggies!
Till the time you hook up something try getting some experience somewhere.
Well you do fail to understand!
Being employed or not has nothing to with your technical knowledge on the subject - of course if you land at a forum where they are talking about how they manage the FMS on an airliner and you pop something stupid , well u'll obviously feel like junk!
India please!
Well the industry is at a bad stage now and everyone is wanting to get a good share of the jobs around.
They post looking to take a low level entry job in a light jet or turbine PC12 and we call them crazy and arrogant.
Most "respectable" airlines recruit pilots with AT LEAST an ATP / ATPL with AT LEAST 500 hrs command on multi engine aircraft and 2000 hrs turbine time. But with your 175 hrs, you're "READY" aren't you!!
@ guitarboy
I understand your concern and frustration. But you need to also consider the fact that there are 4000 odd guys just like us waiting to fly the biggies!
Till the time you hook up something try getting some experience somewhere.
I fail to understand why are the Unemployed CPL Holders made to feel like junk in discussions
Being employed or not has nothing to with your technical knowledge on the subject - of course if you land at a forum where they are talking about how they manage the FMS on an airliner and you pop something stupid , well u'll obviously feel like junk!
.....out of india to ......
India please!
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@ POWERSTALL : I only meant "better" in a way of probably understanding the subjects / flying etc referring to the people who got in during the sudden intake of CPL holders without such exams etc during the BOOM!
@BRIAN304 : Well i own a company which is already provides me a Six figure salary. i Say that with pride being just 21. This is not a Shakespere forum that i have to be so worried about a spell check / slang check. When i do go for an office job interview ill keep your advice spell check / slang check in handy.
Flying for me was for the passion of flying and not money. I am ready to undergo every training / written exam / oral exam etc to prove my worth.
@ABHI88 : Well selling bangles! yeah sure..Thanks for the idea. Theres nothing bad in that. Every job should be respected at par.
@Itsbrokenagain : Well its pretty obvious no one hires the papers which boast your qualifications. Thats why on the first place we have interviews. But when did i say no for a simulator check! But at least we should be given a chance.
I can prove myself and so can other people in their own way but how to go about it! No one knows.
@TOPUP: Everyday we see a huge number of instances when industries / governments of various countries become a laughing stock. We coexist to make this a better place rather than u laugh on me and i laugh on you. I wasnt here to bitch, but only ask people to empathize with us.
@BRIAN304 : Well i own a company which is already provides me a Six figure salary. i Say that with pride being just 21. This is not a Shakespere forum that i have to be so worried about a spell check / slang check. When i do go for an office job interview ill keep your advice spell check / slang check in handy.
Flying for me was for the passion of flying and not money. I am ready to undergo every training / written exam / oral exam etc to prove my worth.
@ABHI88 : Well selling bangles! yeah sure..Thanks for the idea. Theres nothing bad in that. Every job should be respected at par.
@Itsbrokenagain : Well its pretty obvious no one hires the papers which boast your qualifications. Thats why on the first place we have interviews. But when did i say no for a simulator check! But at least we should be given a chance.
I can prove myself and so can other people in their own way but how to go about it! No one knows.
@TOPUP: Everyday we see a huge number of instances when industries / governments of various countries become a laughing stock. We coexist to make this a better place rather than u laugh on me and i laugh on you. I wasnt here to bitch, but only ask people to empathize with us.
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Kevinsky18
Great Post!!
Pilots as a group are the most egotistical, ever.However, they also sell themselves short. Just so you all know, a medical student can spend up to $200K for an MD but does not go looking to be a pharmacist's assistant or an assitant-bed-pan-cleaner.Yes,he does need to build experience and build up a solid reputation.But,no one hires him to be anything other than a doctor. His apprenticeship begins and ends with his internship/residency.To my mind if a guy has earned a CPL/ME/IR he has completed his residency. Yet he is willing (nay expected) to go and clean hangar floors and fill gas on the ramp for a few years before he has earned the right to be even considered for a low paying cargo ops.or commuter airline (Part 135 for the US guys).Is that the system?Then it sucks. Airlines need to stop holding this "I-love-flying-and -so I will-prostitute-myself" card over our heads.Lives are at stake,you say? Commercial Pilots (Me included) need to get over yourselves. Any self respecting Air Force in the world (Indian Air Force included)trains 21 year olds and turns them loose with multimillion dollar machines. And they cope. Indeed, they do well.A nation's security depends on these young men flying far more complex aircraft and missions well.Why then this cry for only grizzled veterans with 10,000 hours only?Admittedly, 250 hours is a bit low but a good training system before and after hiring can weed out the flotsam and jetsam and keep the best of the best. Some of the cream might have 500 hours but might be more competent than the greybeard.
I know, I know there will be smoking holes etc. etc. Until that happens I remain skeptical.
Alt3.
Great Post!!
Pilots as a group are the most egotistical, ever.However, they also sell themselves short. Just so you all know, a medical student can spend up to $200K for an MD but does not go looking to be a pharmacist's assistant or an assitant-bed-pan-cleaner.Yes,he does need to build experience and build up a solid reputation.But,no one hires him to be anything other than a doctor. His apprenticeship begins and ends with his internship/residency.To my mind if a guy has earned a CPL/ME/IR he has completed his residency. Yet he is willing (nay expected) to go and clean hangar floors and fill gas on the ramp for a few years before he has earned the right to be even considered for a low paying cargo ops.or commuter airline (Part 135 for the US guys).Is that the system?Then it sucks. Airlines need to stop holding this "I-love-flying-and -so I will-prostitute-myself" card over our heads.Lives are at stake,you say? Commercial Pilots (Me included) need to get over yourselves. Any self respecting Air Force in the world (Indian Air Force included)trains 21 year olds and turns them loose with multimillion dollar machines. And they cope. Indeed, they do well.A nation's security depends on these young men flying far more complex aircraft and missions well.Why then this cry for only grizzled veterans with 10,000 hours only?Admittedly, 250 hours is a bit low but a good training system before and after hiring can weed out the flotsam and jetsam and keep the best of the best. Some of the cream might have 500 hours but might be more competent than the greybeard.
I know, I know there will be smoking holes etc. etc. Until that happens I remain skeptical.
Alt3.
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Well said
Kevinsky18 , your post was excellent and made for some well informed reading and after thought. Like you said " Arrogance " is the worst enemy a man can have , let alone a pilot . Having said that I also think Judge not the other person , lest you have worn his shoes and walked a few steps.
Just FYI , I too finished my CPL in Australia way back in 1995 , then came back to India and worked with a cargo operator as load control staff for 2 yrs , with a western airline as passenger service staff for 3 , worked with a corporate operator for 3 before getting the job I currently hold in Jet Airways as an F/O on the 737. The years spent working and waiting were sobering to say the least , out of my course mates who started with me ( 20 in all ) only 3 of us are still pursuing a flying career.
What separates the wheat from the chaff in my opinion is the will to believe , survive and make it no matter what. My advise to all unemployed CPL holders in India is find a job in the aviation industry in India , learn a little something about the other aspects of airline work at least for a while . If in some time things do not change keep the faith and go find a job abroad and keep clocking the hours. These are the things that will make or break you.
Take heart and keep the faith , nothing was EVER handed to anyone on a platter.
rgds
vimd23
Just FYI , I too finished my CPL in Australia way back in 1995 , then came back to India and worked with a cargo operator as load control staff for 2 yrs , with a western airline as passenger service staff for 3 , worked with a corporate operator for 3 before getting the job I currently hold in Jet Airways as an F/O on the 737. The years spent working and waiting were sobering to say the least , out of my course mates who started with me ( 20 in all ) only 3 of us are still pursuing a flying career.
What separates the wheat from the chaff in my opinion is the will to believe , survive and make it no matter what. My advise to all unemployed CPL holders in India is find a job in the aviation industry in India , learn a little something about the other aspects of airline work at least for a while . If in some time things do not change keep the faith and go find a job abroad and keep clocking the hours. These are the things that will make or break you.
Take heart and keep the faith , nothing was EVER handed to anyone on a platter.
rgds
vimd23
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Well Guitar Boy you've had some pretty good advice dished out to you so far.As has been said , try and get a job within the industry and maintain a current licence.Don't give up and stay positive irrespective of what people around you may say.You never know what may come your way one day.I also understand your post about "being better that the existing FOs" because quite frankly you are right.During the boom there were many who managed to get a job without really deserving.I've come across such people and always felt that they certainly didn't belong in the cockpit.At least they owed it to the passengers to stay away.Nevertheless best of luck for your flying career and hope to see you on the flight deck soon.
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I would agree to an extent with what guitarboy has written regarding "being better than some of the current boom-time babies FOs" .
I have myself seen and interacted with these FOs we are talking about (boom time babies).
Agreed, they may be able to decently do their PF/PNF duties during their line flying under some good guidance, but thats about it ! .. There's nothing so extra ordinary about them, other than the fact they they had a CPL at the right time.
Just as an example , These "boom time baby" FOs do not know or have never heard about the "Coffin's Corner", Whitcomb's Area Rule, Mach tuck, stuff related to super sonic/sub sonic flight ..
Some have absolutely no interest in discussing aviation or flying related topics.
So many of them do not know or struggle to do some basic NDB holds or DME arc using the RMI on Micro$oft Flight Simulator with autopilot on any of the default aircraft.
I could go on and on .......................
I would even go to the extent of saying that many of them are just VERY WELL TRAINED CHIMPANZEES !! (no offense though) ......... maybe thats why a lot of captains have often told me that even a chimp can be trained to program the computers in an airbus flight deck !!!
I have myself seen and interacted with these FOs we are talking about (boom time babies).
Agreed, they may be able to decently do their PF/PNF duties during their line flying under some good guidance, but thats about it ! .. There's nothing so extra ordinary about them, other than the fact they they had a CPL at the right time.
Just as an example , These "boom time baby" FOs do not know or have never heard about the "Coffin's Corner", Whitcomb's Area Rule, Mach tuck, stuff related to super sonic/sub sonic flight ..
Some have absolutely no interest in discussing aviation or flying related topics.
So many of them do not know or struggle to do some basic NDB holds or DME arc using the RMI on Micro$oft Flight Simulator with autopilot on any of the default aircraft.
I could go on and on .......................
I would even go to the extent of saying that many of them are just VERY WELL TRAINED CHIMPANZEES !!
(no offense though) ......... maybe thats why a lot of captains have often told me that even a chimp can be trained to program the computers in an airbus flight deck !!!
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Guitarboy: What makes you think you're better than the ones who made it to the airlines? Your sour graping will always be futile. Becaues you missed the opportunity when the airlines needed a big number of CPLs with low hours. Now that they have reached their requirement, they can up the ante or the requirements. Same with other airlines... you very well know the logic of SUPPLY and DEMAND...since you already claimed you owned a company that gives you 6 figure income. Why bother being a pilot?
Makes sense doesn't it?
Makes sense doesn't it?
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@Powerstall: It's quite obvious that you have missed the point of guitarboy's post completely. Maybe you should read it again. This time a little slower. As a fellow unemployed CPL holder I empathize with guitarboy and I think he has taken a positive step by asking for some advice from some of the more experienced pilots in the forum. You might be a veteran PPruner with your few hundred posts but clearly you have nothing positive or of substance to add to the discussion.
Although some of the earlier replies might have been slightly rude they atleast contained some decent useable advice.
You talk about landing a two engine aircraft, with an engine out on an NDB approach when you're approaching minimums at low visibility with a 30 knot direct crosswind and wet runway. Whom are you trying to impress? Reduce the crosswind to about 20 knots, subtract the wet runway and add a G1000 failure to it. There were a 150 students at my school in the USA and we were trained to do exactly that. In a simulator and in an airplane. Some of us made it. Some of us didn't. But no one got their Commercial Multi Instrument without it. Now I'm not saying that should make me eligible to fly a jumbo but the point I'm trying to make is that with the right training it is possible.
If you think that ALL of the pilots currently flying for the airlines in India would be able to do the same or are the ones that have shown the most skill or potential or aptitude then it's quite clear that you have no understanding about the recent history of Indian aviation.
You're worse than an Indian news channel when it comes to misquoting people. When did guitarboy ever state that he thinks he is "god's gift to aviation." Again, all he's asking for is some advice. The only reason I am defending him is because it might as well have been me starting this thread instead of him. Guitarboy, me and several people like us have been backed into a corner with not very many options to choose from. There might be some who might think they are god's gift and that it is their birthright but that is not a belief I subscribe to. A lot of us take aviaton as a career very seriously. We are willing to pay our dues, to gather the experience required and to work our way up but sadly there aren't very many ways to do that in India. Most other countries the progression goes something like this: commercial pilot ---> flight instructor ---> regional ---> major. Right now in India it's either fly with a major or nothing.
And when did becoming a pilot become only about the money? It's quite sad that you think just because someone might be making enough money on the side that they should give up something that might be more appealing.
"Makes sense doesn't it?"
No it doesn't.
@Toptup: I have been following your posts on Air India and Indian aviation for a while now and I must say that I respect your sense of ethics and professionalism. I don't think I would be able to survive in an environment like the one you described even for a second and I don't intend to. I understand that your experience wasn't the best but it seems that you have started seeing every Indian pilot or aspiring pilot in the same light. We are not all like that! Your cynicism and hatred for Air India seems to have completely blinded you.
"You are the exact reason your country's aviation iindustry is such a mess."
"Even though you haven't got a job flying a multi-million dollar aircraft you think you deserve one."
"When you do get the job you'll strut about the aircraft, order the FA's around as if they are dirt and boast to your friends about how cool you are."
"Your arrogance has hit a nerve you may have guessed."
"Selling bangles by the roadside suits the likes of you better."
What are you talking about? I've been wondering if you and I read the same post?!
You say "most "respectable" airlines recruit pilots with AT LEAST an ATP / ATPL with AT LEAST 500 hrs command on multi engine aircraft and 2000 hrs turbine time." I think Singapore, Quantas, Emirates and KLM can all be classified as respectable and they all have cadet programs where candidates with no flying experience whatsover are chosen to be trained and groomed to fly on the right seat.
Maybe it was done differently in whatever era you started flying in but I am sorry to say that things have changed.
I am in no way saying that I am ready to fly a jet with my 250 hours. But I sure as hell am ready to be tested for potential and then trained accordingly.
You might think that "Indian aviation is the laughing stock of the world" but fortunately your opinion doesn't really count for much.
On the other hand, this small little company called Boeing thinks India and China are going to account for aircraft sales of over $1 trillion over the next twenty years.
Yes, things are not as professional as they should be but it's changing. The DGCA is cleaning up its act. And Air India will have to sooner or later too. The aviation boom caught everyone by surprise. But I think Indian aviation is better off without pessimistic, cynical and condescending people like you.
------------
Thanks to everyone else who have come up with interesting suggestions, fresh perspectives and words of encouragement.
Although some of the earlier replies might have been slightly rude they atleast contained some decent useable advice.
You talk about landing a two engine aircraft, with an engine out on an NDB approach when you're approaching minimums at low visibility with a 30 knot direct crosswind and wet runway. Whom are you trying to impress? Reduce the crosswind to about 20 knots, subtract the wet runway and add a G1000 failure to it. There were a 150 students at my school in the USA and we were trained to do exactly that. In a simulator and in an airplane. Some of us made it. Some of us didn't. But no one got their Commercial Multi Instrument without it. Now I'm not saying that should make me eligible to fly a jumbo but the point I'm trying to make is that with the right training it is possible.
If you think that ALL of the pilots currently flying for the airlines in India would be able to do the same or are the ones that have shown the most skill or potential or aptitude then it's quite clear that you have no understanding about the recent history of Indian aviation.
You're worse than an Indian news channel when it comes to misquoting people. When did guitarboy ever state that he thinks he is "god's gift to aviation." Again, all he's asking for is some advice. The only reason I am defending him is because it might as well have been me starting this thread instead of him. Guitarboy, me and several people like us have been backed into a corner with not very many options to choose from. There might be some who might think they are god's gift and that it is their birthright but that is not a belief I subscribe to. A lot of us take aviaton as a career very seriously. We are willing to pay our dues, to gather the experience required and to work our way up but sadly there aren't very many ways to do that in India. Most other countries the progression goes something like this: commercial pilot ---> flight instructor ---> regional ---> major. Right now in India it's either fly with a major or nothing.
And when did becoming a pilot become only about the money? It's quite sad that you think just because someone might be making enough money on the side that they should give up something that might be more appealing.
"Makes sense doesn't it?"
No it doesn't.
@Toptup: I have been following your posts on Air India and Indian aviation for a while now and I must say that I respect your sense of ethics and professionalism. I don't think I would be able to survive in an environment like the one you described even for a second and I don't intend to. I understand that your experience wasn't the best but it seems that you have started seeing every Indian pilot or aspiring pilot in the same light. We are not all like that! Your cynicism and hatred for Air India seems to have completely blinded you.
"You are the exact reason your country's aviation iindustry is such a mess."
"Even though you haven't got a job flying a multi-million dollar aircraft you think you deserve one."
"When you do get the job you'll strut about the aircraft, order the FA's around as if they are dirt and boast to your friends about how cool you are."
"Your arrogance has hit a nerve you may have guessed."
"Selling bangles by the roadside suits the likes of you better."
What are you talking about? I've been wondering if you and I read the same post?!
You say "most "respectable" airlines recruit pilots with AT LEAST an ATP / ATPL with AT LEAST 500 hrs command on multi engine aircraft and 2000 hrs turbine time." I think Singapore, Quantas, Emirates and KLM can all be classified as respectable and they all have cadet programs where candidates with no flying experience whatsover are chosen to be trained and groomed to fly on the right seat.
Maybe it was done differently in whatever era you started flying in but I am sorry to say that things have changed.
I am in no way saying that I am ready to fly a jet with my 250 hours. But I sure as hell am ready to be tested for potential and then trained accordingly.
You might think that "Indian aviation is the laughing stock of the world" but fortunately your opinion doesn't really count for much.
On the other hand, this small little company called Boeing thinks India and China are going to account for aircraft sales of over $1 trillion over the next twenty years.
Yes, things are not as professional as they should be but it's changing. The DGCA is cleaning up its act. And Air India will have to sooner or later too. The aviation boom caught everyone by surprise. But I think Indian aviation is better off without pessimistic, cynical and condescending people like you.
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Thanks to everyone else who have come up with interesting suggestions, fresh perspectives and words of encouragement.
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Skaios:
You are right, and my last post was perhaps not very fair and written with some poison in the ink. I cannot help but be tainted by what I went through and see still detiorating in Indian aviation. My problem and not fair to lash out - you are right.
Yes. SIN, QF, EK, KLM, CX, EY, etc, etc do employ pilots from a cadetship. That cadetship includes either being farmed out for a year on a Dash8/Metroliner/Banderante (QF), doing 250 hrs (approx) on a Learjet as training (SIN), being sent on a BAE146 first (or use to be at KLM) while CX, EK and EY have their cadets through a THOROUGH and RESPECTED training system of sims and ground school. The cadtes are interviewed and screened thoroughly before being accepted. ALSO, many/most are SECOND OFFICERS for 3-5 years before getting a look at a RHS. They (all cadets) can and do get scrubbed if not making the grade. Those who are checked to line are skilful, knowledgable and capable FOs. Not so at AI. FACT. I have colleagues at all the above mentioned airlines.
At AI, 175 hrs TT into a 73NG, A310, 777 or 744. The (in house) exam answers are sent via text message to eachother. The training is laughable (even they say so themselves), then the inability to fly a 777 straight and level on downwind (as again I witnessed first hand). And guess what, they are all passed as suitable. FO's unable to define V1, Vr or V2, let alone Vmcg or Vmca. Those are facts.
Where experience is not their training must take its place. No one can seriously be honest with themselves and say that this is true at AI.
Kevinsky18:
A good post sir and an interesting food for thought. The reason pilots went out and cleaned hangers, polished aircraft, worked the ramp, took up jobs as meat-bombers (parachute ops), freight runners, tourist flights in C172, C210, etc.... is because their were no jobs on shiney jets to walk into. So, they did what they could to stay within the industry, improve their experience until either they had the competitive experience or the job situation opened: often these two points worked hand in hand. These jobs then, as it should and in many countries is to be considered a privilegde. My grudge is those 175 hr pilots sitting at home expecting / thinking that these jobs are their RIGHT and not to be earnt after gaining a brand new CPL. They have no desire to get out and look for a light piston job if that's what will keep them current and flying. That is my point. What I did "way back when" was not a right of passage but what I HAD TO DO to fulfill my dreams and ambitions.
Some carriers are screaming for turboprop pilots but I know for a fact (conversations with parents of CPL holders and CPL holders themselves) that they deem prop jobs as beneath them. Why fly a prop when they should be able to fly a jet??! Again, first hand experience.
Yeah... Boeing and Airbus see India and China as a huge market for sales. As I have stated, friends and colleagues at Boeing are weary and wash their hands of many issues. So, in come the politics! [Source not revealed but also a FACT].
My point of view still stands: get off your backside and get flying, wherever, however to become a better pilot. Heaven knows the training at AI is basically criminally neglectful (harsh but true). So, hit the books and go and FLY!
Guitarboy: my comments about an arrogant "so and so" ordering about the FA's as slaves, etc was not fair. I have seen it done but that does not mean either you are or I hope will. So, my apologies. (I shouldn't post when on a high horse.... You didn't deserve that.) I trust though you listen to some advice and go and get out their and hunt for a flying job.
You are right, and my last post was perhaps not very fair and written with some poison in the ink. I cannot help but be tainted by what I went through and see still detiorating in Indian aviation. My problem and not fair to lash out - you are right.
Yes. SIN, QF, EK, KLM, CX, EY, etc, etc do employ pilots from a cadetship. That cadetship includes either being farmed out for a year on a Dash8/Metroliner/Banderante (QF), doing 250 hrs (approx) on a Learjet as training (SIN), being sent on a BAE146 first (or use to be at KLM) while CX, EK and EY have their cadets through a THOROUGH and RESPECTED training system of sims and ground school. The cadtes are interviewed and screened thoroughly before being accepted. ALSO, many/most are SECOND OFFICERS for 3-5 years before getting a look at a RHS. They (all cadets) can and do get scrubbed if not making the grade. Those who are checked to line are skilful, knowledgable and capable FOs. Not so at AI. FACT. I have colleagues at all the above mentioned airlines.
At AI, 175 hrs TT into a 73NG, A310, 777 or 744. The (in house) exam answers are sent via text message to eachother. The training is laughable (even they say so themselves), then the inability to fly a 777 straight and level on downwind (as again I witnessed first hand). And guess what, they are all passed as suitable. FO's unable to define V1, Vr or V2, let alone Vmcg or Vmca. Those are facts.
Where experience is not their training must take its place. No one can seriously be honest with themselves and say that this is true at AI.
Kevinsky18:
A good post sir and an interesting food for thought. The reason pilots went out and cleaned hangers, polished aircraft, worked the ramp, took up jobs as meat-bombers (parachute ops), freight runners, tourist flights in C172, C210, etc.... is because their were no jobs on shiney jets to walk into. So, they did what they could to stay within the industry, improve their experience until either they had the competitive experience or the job situation opened: often these two points worked hand in hand. These jobs then, as it should and in many countries is to be considered a privilegde. My grudge is those 175 hr pilots sitting at home expecting / thinking that these jobs are their RIGHT and not to be earnt after gaining a brand new CPL. They have no desire to get out and look for a light piston job if that's what will keep them current and flying. That is my point. What I did "way back when" was not a right of passage but what I HAD TO DO to fulfill my dreams and ambitions.
Some carriers are screaming for turboprop pilots but I know for a fact (conversations with parents of CPL holders and CPL holders themselves) that they deem prop jobs as beneath them. Why fly a prop when they should be able to fly a jet??! Again, first hand experience.
Yeah... Boeing and Airbus see India and China as a huge market for sales. As I have stated, friends and colleagues at Boeing are weary and wash their hands of many issues. So, in come the politics! [Source not revealed but also a FACT].
My point of view still stands: get off your backside and get flying, wherever, however to become a better pilot. Heaven knows the training at AI is basically criminally neglectful (harsh but true). So, hit the books and go and FLY!
Guitarboy: my comments about an arrogant "so and so" ordering about the FA's as slaves, etc was not fair. I have seen it done but that does not mean either you are or I hope will. So, my apologies. (I shouldn't post when on a high horse.... You didn't deserve that.) I trust though you listen to some advice and go and get out their and hunt for a flying job.
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@skaios:
First of all, the simulator is different from the real thing. Wouldn't you agree? since you already stated the fact that the said scenario was peanuts for you. The sim has a controlled airspace you move in with the TRI/TRE's having the option to change one thing or another. I sure hope you know that things change when flying for real. There are a lot of things that are not within YOUR control.
Secondly, regarding Guitarboy's post. If you really have read his post, He is clearly expressing his disgust for the FO's that are currently flying in the line. I was merely stating the fact that how could he CLAIM to be better than the FO's that were hired with CPL-low timers. Isn't he also a CPL with low time? the only problem was he was never hired due to the fact that the airlines have already filled up their slots..... that's where supply and demand comes in.... when there is a high demand for flight deck crews, but the pilots are in short supply, airlines would bend the rules so they could fill up their slots asap. They may lower their requirements to just CPL with IR for example. But when they do have their flight deck crew slots filled or nearing their intended numbers, the airlines now could bend the rules back to their original requirements and may ask for more. This could be in flying time or they may now need turbine time. At this time they may be stricter and wash out the ones who have the least experience or those who they deem to see not fit for their airline.
Now, let me ask you this, Who made the choice for you to spend a ton of money for flight training? was it the airlines? was it the media? I may never know...
But why do you speak as if the airlines owed you something?
I know a lot of you guys over there in incredible india, had to borrow, maybe sell their properties to fund their flight training. Hoping to fly a big shiny jet as soon as your CPL training was finished and repay the debt incurred. But who made the choice? Who is to blame? Who gave you the assurance that after your training with 200+ hrs. You already have a RIGHT to fly a big and shiny jet? Who?
And please, stop patronizing yourself. Stop complaining and whining like a little brat. It will get you nowhere. Work you ass off, get any flying job then work it up from there. Any job is better than no job.
I know this fact first hand, and I.N.D.I.A.
oh before i forget. If guitarboy really wanted to fly? wouldn't he be happy flying his own aircraft just for the fun of it? since he indicated he was earning six figures.. .go buy yourself a king air e90 or a caravan. Go figure.
First of all, the simulator is different from the real thing. Wouldn't you agree? since you already stated the fact that the said scenario was peanuts for you. The sim has a controlled airspace you move in with the TRI/TRE's having the option to change one thing or another. I sure hope you know that things change when flying for real. There are a lot of things that are not within YOUR control.
Secondly, regarding Guitarboy's post. If you really have read his post, He is clearly expressing his disgust for the FO's that are currently flying in the line. I was merely stating the fact that how could he CLAIM to be better than the FO's that were hired with CPL-low timers. Isn't he also a CPL with low time? the only problem was he was never hired due to the fact that the airlines have already filled up their slots..... that's where supply and demand comes in.... when there is a high demand for flight deck crews, but the pilots are in short supply, airlines would bend the rules so they could fill up their slots asap. They may lower their requirements to just CPL with IR for example. But when they do have their flight deck crew slots filled or nearing their intended numbers, the airlines now could bend the rules back to their original requirements and may ask for more. This could be in flying time or they may now need turbine time. At this time they may be stricter and wash out the ones who have the least experience or those who they deem to see not fit for their airline.
Now, let me ask you this, Who made the choice for you to spend a ton of money for flight training? was it the airlines? was it the media? I may never know...
But why do you speak as if the airlines owed you something?
I know a lot of you guys over there in incredible india, had to borrow, maybe sell their properties to fund their flight training. Hoping to fly a big shiny jet as soon as your CPL training was finished and repay the debt incurred. But who made the choice? Who is to blame? Who gave you the assurance that after your training with 200+ hrs. You already have a RIGHT to fly a big and shiny jet? Who?
And please, stop patronizing yourself. Stop complaining and whining like a little brat. It will get you nowhere. Work you ass off, get any flying job then work it up from there. Any job is better than no job.
I know this fact first hand, and I.N.D.I.A.
oh before i forget. If guitarboy really wanted to fly? wouldn't he be happy flying his own aircraft just for the fun of it? since he indicated he was earning six figures.. .go buy yourself a king air e90 or a caravan. Go figure.
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There are some basic problems here which plagues India's civil aviation industry :
1. Bad method of selection of pilots.
2. Poor training in several airlines.
3. Big ego that naturally develops when kids with a CPL meeting bare minimum requirements find themselves flying domestic and international sectors and having layovers at destinations they never would have imagined in their wildest dreams, in luxury hotels etc.
SOLUTION :
1. I guess nothing much can be done. Slots eventually get filled up due to demand-supply condition and based on that, the selection criteria can be rigorous and comprehensive or a red-carpet welcome by the airline to the candidate !
2. Nepotism, favouritism etc needs to be stopped or atleast controlled to an extent. This is the root cause of all the major problems in India.
3. Airlines must NOT give high salaries or perks to the new hires. Make them stay in small guest hoses or lodges during layovers. This is the ONLY way the ego problem can be nipped in the bud. Let them know where they really stand.
Make these kids live a life of austerity TILL they get an ATPL or prove their worth in some way or the other.
Instructors and examiners must constantly keep checking the knowledge level and competence of the young hires and if they are unable to explain simple things like V speeds, basic systems of a/c type, terrible CRM etc, then it should go into their "report card" or whatever and result in an automatic reduction of their salaries and perks.
Not only would this help in controlling the ego problem amongst Indians, it would save the airlines BIG BUCKS !!!
1. Bad method of selection of pilots.
2. Poor training in several airlines.
3. Big ego that naturally develops when kids with a CPL meeting bare minimum requirements find themselves flying domestic and international sectors and having layovers at destinations they never would have imagined in their wildest dreams, in luxury hotels etc.
SOLUTION :
1. I guess nothing much can be done. Slots eventually get filled up due to demand-supply condition and based on that, the selection criteria can be rigorous and comprehensive or a red-carpet welcome by the airline to the candidate !
2. Nepotism, favouritism etc needs to be stopped or atleast controlled to an extent. This is the root cause of all the major problems in India.
3. Airlines must NOT give high salaries or perks to the new hires. Make them stay in small guest hoses or lodges during layovers. This is the ONLY way the ego problem can be nipped in the bud. Let them know where they really stand.
Make these kids live a life of austerity TILL they get an ATPL or prove their worth in some way or the other.
Instructors and examiners must constantly keep checking the knowledge level and competence of the young hires and if they are unable to explain simple things like V speeds, basic systems of a/c type, terrible CRM etc, then it should go into their "report card" or whatever and result in an automatic reduction of their salaries and perks.
Not only would this help in controlling the ego problem amongst Indians, it would save the airlines BIG BUCKS !!!
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@Powerstall: I never meant or said or felt disgusted to the FO's working in airlines today.
This is what i disgust.
This was the only thing where i even got the FO'z and it doesnt sound like i hated them just cuz i didnt get a job.
I only was really pissed that everytime unemployed cpl holders are talked about we are made to look like some poor beggars looking at a shiny mercedes at a traffic signal waiting for alms. i.e when we think we can fly those jets / turboprops. i just want that to go away.
and for the six figure salary. i get six figures in INR (INDIAN RUPEE) and that comes out to be a 4 figure salary in $$$$'z. So buying goes out of question and besides its not just my problem, i represent other people too.
POWERSTALL all your replys in this post have been so rude that im really feeling sorry for the FO who flys with you. Get Well Soon my aviator friend.
I fail to understand why are the Unemployed CPL Holders made to feel like junk in discussions.
Just because we went out to train, doesnt make all of us lousy. Some may be way better than the F/o'z of today in airlines.
I only was really pissed that everytime unemployed cpl holders are talked about we are made to look like some poor beggars looking at a shiny mercedes at a traffic signal waiting for alms. i.e when we think we can fly those jets / turboprops. i just want that to go away.
and for the six figure salary. i get six figures in INR (INDIAN RUPEE) and that comes out to be a 4 figure salary in $$$$'z. So buying goes out of question and besides its not just my problem, i represent other people too.
POWERSTALL all your replys in this post have been so rude that im really feeling sorry for the FO who flys with you. Get Well Soon my aviator friend.