Jet Airways turned me down?????
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A few Indian Capts might also think about leaving India as well for the tax free jobs offered in the Middle-East, being only 3 hrs away. It's the same expat package for them that is being offered to us here. For non-commutable contracts they would have to move their families there. But they won't be the "King of the Hill" there.
Airlines here are under a lot of pressure to upgrade first-ofiicers when they meet minimum requiremnts. Like any airline anywhere in the world, there are the good, the bad and the ugly. Hopefully we wont have too many of the last bunch in the seat.
Fortunately aircraft today have become safer and easier to fly (fewer failures, automation, moving map etc). If they were flying the old DC-8 50-70 series aircraft or B720/707/727 with 300 hr pilots I would be quite worried!
Airlines here are under a lot of pressure to upgrade first-ofiicers when they meet minimum requiremnts. Like any airline anywhere in the world, there are the good, the bad and the ugly. Hopefully we wont have too many of the last bunch in the seat.
Fortunately aircraft today have become safer and easier to fly (fewer failures, automation, moving map etc). If they were flying the old DC-8 50-70 series aircraft or B720/707/727 with 300 hr pilots I would be quite worried!
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Publication: Times Of India Delhi;
Date: Nov 7, 2008; Section: Times Business; Page: 25
Jet terminates 30-35 expat pilots
Shobha John | TNN
New Delhi: Jet Airways has terminated the services of 30-35 expat pilots. These are from its 737-400 fleet. This decision was taken at a meeting on Wednesday between top Jet management and its owner Naresh Goyal. A Jet source who attended the meeting confirmed the development. ‘‘Yes, this is true. Four of these planes were grounded and we don't need so many expats.'' Asked if this was the beginning of a gradual easing out of expats from Jet, he replied, ‘‘Yes, we'll ease them out in future, depending on how many planes will be grounded.''
Jet has some 258 expat pilots, with 198 flying the B-777s and A-330s and 60 piloting the 737s. Most of the expats in various airlines fly the modern wide-bodied, long-range B-777s and the B-737-800s. A Jet Airways spokeperson confirmed that notices had been served on some expat pilots.
Jet's easing out of these expats is good news for Indian pilots, who hope for better career prospects. Many of them have been demanding to remove the expats, a fact brought out by TOI.
"Why target us when expats are an expensive drain on our country? With dollar appreciation, they're now getting 15-20% more salary,'' says an Indian commander. A foreign commander gets roughly Rs 10 lakh a month, compared to an Indian who gets about Rs 6 lakh. There are other perks, including expensive five-star accommodation, which push up costs to the company further and travel allowance that could be as much as $12,000 or Rs 6 lakh a year.
There are some 900 expat pilots in India. DGCA had earlier this year given a written directive to airlines to submit a phasing-out plan for expats and how they intended to train Indian pilots. The deadline for easing out expats for all airlines was July 31, 2010.
These expats were taken at a time when Indian commanders were in short supply but with the glut among co-pilots, that's no longer the case. ‘‘This is a ray of hope to thousands of young Indian pilots who are without jobs who can be inducted as co-pilots while Indian commanders can be taken on contract just as the expats were,'' says an examiner in an airline.
Spicejet too is in the process of cutting down expat commanders. Says Jati Dhillon, VP, Operations, ‘‘I have in place a plan to ease them out and by 2009, we will have no expat pilots.''
What has been galling for Indian pilots is that brakes have been put on their own career progression with the induction of these expats, as many of the 737 pilots would eventually like to graduate to the 777s or the 747s which these expats are flying.
Date: Nov 7, 2008; Section: Times Business; Page: 25
Jet terminates 30-35 expat pilots
Shobha John | TNN
New Delhi: Jet Airways has terminated the services of 30-35 expat pilots. These are from its 737-400 fleet. This decision was taken at a meeting on Wednesday between top Jet management and its owner Naresh Goyal. A Jet source who attended the meeting confirmed the development. ‘‘Yes, this is true. Four of these planes were grounded and we don't need so many expats.'' Asked if this was the beginning of a gradual easing out of expats from Jet, he replied, ‘‘Yes, we'll ease them out in future, depending on how many planes will be grounded.''
Jet has some 258 expat pilots, with 198 flying the B-777s and A-330s and 60 piloting the 737s. Most of the expats in various airlines fly the modern wide-bodied, long-range B-777s and the B-737-800s. A Jet Airways spokeperson confirmed that notices had been served on some expat pilots.
Jet's easing out of these expats is good news for Indian pilots, who hope for better career prospects. Many of them have been demanding to remove the expats, a fact brought out by TOI.
"Why target us when expats are an expensive drain on our country? With dollar appreciation, they're now getting 15-20% more salary,'' says an Indian commander. A foreign commander gets roughly Rs 10 lakh a month, compared to an Indian who gets about Rs 6 lakh. There are other perks, including expensive five-star accommodation, which push up costs to the company further and travel allowance that could be as much as $12,000 or Rs 6 lakh a year.
There are some 900 expat pilots in India. DGCA had earlier this year given a written directive to airlines to submit a phasing-out plan for expats and how they intended to train Indian pilots. The deadline for easing out expats for all airlines was July 31, 2010.
These expats were taken at a time when Indian commanders were in short supply but with the glut among co-pilots, that's no longer the case. ‘‘This is a ray of hope to thousands of young Indian pilots who are without jobs who can be inducted as co-pilots while Indian commanders can be taken on contract just as the expats were,'' says an examiner in an airline.
Spicejet too is in the process of cutting down expat commanders. Says Jati Dhillon, VP, Operations, ‘‘I have in place a plan to ease them out and by 2009, we will have no expat pilots.''
What has been galling for Indian pilots is that brakes have been put on their own career progression with the induction of these expats, as many of the 737 pilots would eventually like to graduate to the 777s or the 747s which these expats are flying.
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The expat pilot has become a "scapegoat" for the airlines to deflect from much deeper issues. As I mentioned earlier, as John the Baptist (voice in the wilderness), every single expat in India should have their options explored. Some did not quite believe me when I said so a week or so ago.
I am not an expat hater, wishing to get rid of an expat. I am an EXPAT!
I have been here coming up on 3 years and so I am not a newbie. I have been flying airplanes for 31 years. My post was meant as advise for those expats in the field.
Majority of the airlines here are in deep, deep trouble and they are in denial even now. They are very much behind the power curve, and I would say many are in the "region of reversed command" and will not be able to survive without a significant cash infusion or bail out package from the government. For anyone to suggest that the removal of the expat pilot will end their woes, they have another thing coming. Airlines have started to default on leases (KF), hotel bills are overdue, and parts are in short supply. A buddy of mine at Spicejet told me they didn't have any main wheel tires for the B737-800 last week, grounding two airplanes and thus affecting 17 flights or more. Ofcourse it was blamed on customs. He also told me that their expat CP has left, and although they have a new CEO no one has heard a word from him about anything. From the article above, it seems like even Spicejet airlines is going to axe their expats in 2009. Jet has already started (more layoffs coming) and KF will also do the same.
While the airlines want to phase out expats, here is what is going to happen. The "Quit India" movement has begun involuntarily due to the airlines actions. Instead of 12-18 months from now, what if the 900 expat pilots or a majority leave within 90-180 days? Anyone who interviews in Nov/Dec (if hired) can expect to start no later than March 2009. They are mucho jobs out there, even for the age 60 plus guys. As someone said earlier, it's a double edged sword. There will be some severe shortcomings in rostering and manning of flights.
With all expats pilots leaving eventually the Indians will have a free reign (they should, its their turf). But the airlines will then reduce terms and conditions. No more F/O's making 2 lakhs a month. Try a 30-50% paycut instead. Same goes for the Capts. They will have to take cuts as well.
They won't be able to compare their salaries to expats as a valid arguement, b/c we won't be here. Many will try to leave, but by then expats will have filled up many of the slots overseas as well. The early bird gets the worm.
I am not an expat hater, wishing to get rid of an expat. I am an EXPAT!
I have been here coming up on 3 years and so I am not a newbie. I have been flying airplanes for 31 years. My post was meant as advise for those expats in the field.
Majority of the airlines here are in deep, deep trouble and they are in denial even now. They are very much behind the power curve, and I would say many are in the "region of reversed command" and will not be able to survive without a significant cash infusion or bail out package from the government. For anyone to suggest that the removal of the expat pilot will end their woes, they have another thing coming. Airlines have started to default on leases (KF), hotel bills are overdue, and parts are in short supply. A buddy of mine at Spicejet told me they didn't have any main wheel tires for the B737-800 last week, grounding two airplanes and thus affecting 17 flights or more. Ofcourse it was blamed on customs. He also told me that their expat CP has left, and although they have a new CEO no one has heard a word from him about anything. From the article above, it seems like even Spicejet airlines is going to axe their expats in 2009. Jet has already started (more layoffs coming) and KF will also do the same.
While the airlines want to phase out expats, here is what is going to happen. The "Quit India" movement has begun involuntarily due to the airlines actions. Instead of 12-18 months from now, what if the 900 expat pilots or a majority leave within 90-180 days? Anyone who interviews in Nov/Dec (if hired) can expect to start no later than March 2009. They are mucho jobs out there, even for the age 60 plus guys. As someone said earlier, it's a double edged sword. There will be some severe shortcomings in rostering and manning of flights.
With all expats pilots leaving eventually the Indians will have a free reign (they should, its their turf). But the airlines will then reduce terms and conditions. No more F/O's making 2 lakhs a month. Try a 30-50% paycut instead. Same goes for the Capts. They will have to take cuts as well.
They won't be able to compare their salaries to expats as a valid arguement, b/c we won't be here. Many will try to leave, but by then expats will have filled up many of the slots overseas as well. The early bird gets the worm.
Last edited by NGFellow; 8th Nov 2008 at 03:45.
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As it relates to Spicejet:
1. Expats being phased out by 2009--- Nothing official but quite probable.
2. No main wheel tires last week grounding 2 airplanes--- True Statement.
3. Chief Pilot has left-- He did leave, returned last week. No one knows if he is still the CP.
4. New CEO unheard from-- True Statement.
1. Expats being phased out by 2009--- Nothing official but quite probable.
2. No main wheel tires last week grounding 2 airplanes--- True Statement.
3. Chief Pilot has left-- He did leave, returned last week. No one knows if he is still the CP.
4. New CEO unheard from-- True Statement.
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1. Expats being phased out by 2009--- Nothing official but quite probable.
2. No main wheel tires last week grounding 2 airplanes--- True Statement.
Of course it was blamed on customs
3. Chief Pilot has left-- He did leave, returned last week. No one knows if he is still the CP.
4. New CEO unheard from-- True Statement.
4. New CEO unheard from-- True Statement.
JET lays off 35 expats
Expats make twice as much as Indians
Expats make twice as much as Indians
JET has a history of stupid personnel moves. This is another one. Hopefully other operations will listen to wiser heads and not automatically follow suit. We'll see. Never a dull moment!
It's a little early to bail (unless you work for JET), but keeping options open is always good advice.
[Let me add there's no intent to bash anybody's airline or hurt anyone's feelings (except those that deserve it!). I'm just callin' 'em as I see 'em.
]
Last edited by Rotorhead1026; 8th Nov 2008 at 05:40. Reason: disclaimer
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Expats phase out plan at Spicejet... I meant the end of 2009, not the beginning. That's what is implied per the article. I have no knowledge of any official plan in action.
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NHFellow
Congrats on the excellent post.
Too unfortunate, misleading and xenophobic the rubbish on Times of India...light years from reality.
PS.: TidaBisa, well said.
Too unfortunate, misleading and xenophobic the rubbish on Times of India...light years from reality.
PS.: TidaBisa, well said.
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Pilots make a beeline for Gulf airlines
9 Nov 2008, 0334 hrs IST, Shobha John, TNN
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NEW DELHI: This brain drain could strike a blow to India's growing aviation sector. Many pilots, including senior commanders with over 13,000 hours of flying, are applying for jobs in Gulf carriers due to job insecurity that's hit almost all the domestic airlines. As one commander says, "You never know which airline shuts here when." India's loss could well be the Gulf's gain.
The Gulf carriers include Emirates, its low-cost carrier flydubai, Qatar, Ethihad, Air Arabia, Gulf Air and Oman Airlines. Even though flydubai will get its first aircraft only in 2009 and commence operations thereafter, pilots have started applying in droves. Sources say some 50 Jet, 10 Spicejet, 22-30 Jetlite and many pilots from Kingfisher have sent their job applications to the low-cost airline.
The main reason for this flight plan is the pilots' disappointment with the business ethics of airlines here. Says a private airline pilot who wants to move to flydubai, "Money is not everything. We're insecure about the way airlines are treating us. It's not fair and square here. I've known instructors being told by airline managements not to clear the route checks of certain pilots whom they perceive as troublesome. Abroad, once you sign a contract, it is honoured." Besides, Gulf carriers, are richer and more stable.
A Kingfisher commander, who has applied in 3-4 Gulf airlines, says, "I was a 737 pilot before I joined Kingfisher. I spent Rs 30 lakh for training on the A-340s in Madrid, but was later told by Kingfisher that it wouldn't be buying these planes and I could join the A-320 fleet. I feel let down. I now have to pay a bank loan of Rs 75,000 every month."
However, Kingfisher's spokesman says, "We had to renew our international expansion plans due to the meltdown. But we're offering these pilots a job on the A-320s and Kingfisher will bear the costs of training. All, except six, have taken it."
There's also dissatisfaction among Indian pilots about expats getting more salaries while they suffer pay cuts. "Indian pilots need an equal playing field in India," says another pilot. Plus, they can't leave an airline unless a six-month notice is given by them. Says one captain, "I know of pilots in Jetlite who had almost served their six-month notice and were promised a job elsewhere, only to find the offer withdrawn at the last minute."
The lure of flying the latest planes is also drawing pilots abroad. Flydubai, for example, will have a fleet of 54 Boeing 737-800s. Says a Jet pilot with over 8,000 flying hours, "If I get chosen, I'll also get a chance to be upgraded to the wide-bodied planes Emirates has."
In fact, Capt Jati Dhillon, V-P operations, Spicejet, says this brain drain is good. "The situation in India is not bright. If expats can come here and fly, why shouldn't Indians fly to the Gulf? Aviation growth is good there. It's time India changed pilot licenses so that they're internationally recognized." Besides, with a glut of co-pilots here, India can afford to let many pilots go, he says.
Emirates, incidentally, has 2,201 pilots, 29 of whom are Indians, says its spokesman. In the last recruitment in July 2008, nine Indians participated. "We've always received interest from Indian pilots due to our long-term career prospects, proven commercial success, sound financials, latest aircraft, young fleet and global network," he says.
Compare this to airlines in India. Says a Spicejet commander who applied in flydubai, "Airlines in India lack clarity in work policies, especially with regard to seniority, future security and financial viability." Salaries are an added attraction. For captains with a minimum of 5,000 flying hours and a minimum 500 hours in command in B737s, flydubai is offering 57,000 dirhams tax free (over Rs 6 lakh); instructors and examiners get another 3,000 dirhams extra. In India, commanders in private airlines make about half that amount.
But it won't be a cakewalk. International airlines have tougher standards and most take co-pilots with a minimum of 2,500 hours of flying. In India, on the other hand, most are fresh pilots who are then trained by airlines.
A spokesman for flydubai says, "We're progressing on many fronts from recruitment to procurement. We're on-track with our preparations and will soon be launching our marketing campaign." He refused to elaborate further.
Looks like the good times will roll for Indian pilots, not here, but abroad.
Click here to comment on this story.
9 Nov 2008, 0334 hrs IST, Shobha John, TNN
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Multiple pages viewText:
NEW DELHI: This brain drain could strike a blow to India's growing aviation sector. Many pilots, including senior commanders with over 13,000 hours of flying, are applying for jobs in Gulf carriers due to job insecurity that's hit almost all the domestic airlines. As one commander says, "You never know which airline shuts here when." India's loss could well be the Gulf's gain.
The Gulf carriers include Emirates, its low-cost carrier flydubai, Qatar, Ethihad, Air Arabia, Gulf Air and Oman Airlines. Even though flydubai will get its first aircraft only in 2009 and commence operations thereafter, pilots have started applying in droves. Sources say some 50 Jet, 10 Spicejet, 22-30 Jetlite and many pilots from Kingfisher have sent their job applications to the low-cost airline.
The main reason for this flight plan is the pilots' disappointment with the business ethics of airlines here. Says a private airline pilot who wants to move to flydubai, "Money is not everything. We're insecure about the way airlines are treating us. It's not fair and square here. I've known instructors being told by airline managements not to clear the route checks of certain pilots whom they perceive as troublesome. Abroad, once you sign a contract, it is honoured." Besides, Gulf carriers, are richer and more stable.
A Kingfisher commander, who has applied in 3-4 Gulf airlines, says, "I was a 737 pilot before I joined Kingfisher. I spent Rs 30 lakh for training on the A-340s in Madrid, but was later told by Kingfisher that it wouldn't be buying these planes and I could join the A-320 fleet. I feel let down. I now have to pay a bank loan of Rs 75,000 every month."
However, Kingfisher's spokesman says, "We had to renew our international expansion plans due to the meltdown. But we're offering these pilots a job on the A-320s and Kingfisher will bear the costs of training. All, except six, have taken it."
There's also dissatisfaction among Indian pilots about expats getting more salaries while they suffer pay cuts. "Indian pilots need an equal playing field in India," says another pilot. Plus, they can't leave an airline unless a six-month notice is given by them. Says one captain, "I know of pilots in Jetlite who had almost served their six-month notice and were promised a job elsewhere, only to find the offer withdrawn at the last minute."
The lure of flying the latest planes is also drawing pilots abroad. Flydubai, for example, will have a fleet of 54 Boeing 737-800s. Says a Jet pilot with over 8,000 flying hours, "If I get chosen, I'll also get a chance to be upgraded to the wide-bodied planes Emirates has."
In fact, Capt Jati Dhillon, V-P operations, Spicejet, says this brain drain is good. "The situation in India is not bright. If expats can come here and fly, why shouldn't Indians fly to the Gulf? Aviation growth is good there. It's time India changed pilot licenses so that they're internationally recognized." Besides, with a glut of co-pilots here, India can afford to let many pilots go, he says.
Emirates, incidentally, has 2,201 pilots, 29 of whom are Indians, says its spokesman. In the last recruitment in July 2008, nine Indians participated. "We've always received interest from Indian pilots due to our long-term career prospects, proven commercial success, sound financials, latest aircraft, young fleet and global network," he says.
Compare this to airlines in India. Says a Spicejet commander who applied in flydubai, "Airlines in India lack clarity in work policies, especially with regard to seniority, future security and financial viability." Salaries are an added attraction. For captains with a minimum of 5,000 flying hours and a minimum 500 hours in command in B737s, flydubai is offering 57,000 dirhams tax free (over Rs 6 lakh); instructors and examiners get another 3,000 dirhams extra. In India, commanders in private airlines make about half that amount.
But it won't be a cakewalk. International airlines have tougher standards and most take co-pilots with a minimum of 2,500 hours of flying. In India, on the other hand, most are fresh pilots who are then trained by airlines.
A spokesman for flydubai says, "We're progressing on many fronts from recruitment to procurement. We're on-track with our preparations and will soon be launching our marketing campaign." He refused to elaborate further.
Looks like the good times will roll for Indian pilots, not here, but abroad.
Click here to comment on this story.
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Some of the pilot comments in the newspaper article above are accurate and appropriate. Others are awfully naive. I suspect some of the younger hotheaded pilots have burned their bridges behind them. Never a good move. FlyDubai is at the moment the airline equivalent of vaporware, and things can slam to a halt in the ME just like anywhere else. Never say never.
No one blames these fellows for trying to better their position, but never forget that the grass always seems greener, even where there ain't no grass.
No one blames these fellows for trying to better their position, but never forget that the grass always seems greener, even where there ain't no grass.
Last edited by Rotorhead1026; 9th Nov 2008 at 06:13. Reason: addendum for clarity
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If Indeed There Is A Pilot Run, Its A Non-existant Aviation Culture, As Well As Circumstances To Blame.
Oil Prices, Economic Slowdown, Politicsm, Poor Management And Especially..... A Garbage Press Led By The times Of India.
It Appears That Any Pilot With 5 Mins Of Time On His Hands Is An Expert Who Has All The Answers. The More Sensational The Better.
It Will Be Interesting To See Who Will Fly The Planes On The Upswing.
Oil Prices, Economic Slowdown, Politicsm, Poor Management And Especially..... A Garbage Press Led By The times Of India.
It Appears That Any Pilot With 5 Mins Of Time On His Hands Is An Expert Who Has All The Answers. The More Sensational The Better.
It Will Be Interesting To See Who Will Fly The Planes On The Upswing.
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Abroad, once you sign a contract, it is honoured.
ELAC
"Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore!"
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Too much Info!
Have gone thru all the threads in this Forum and true that Jobs scene is bad rite now for an Expat. But 3 years back when every thing was green.....why wasn't anyone talking then? 
the fuel prices have rendered a real bad crunch in the Indian Aviation Industry. The Brunt is faced by many, including the ground crew. Spicejet terminated services of 23 trainee pilots(Indians) cos they didn't fell the need.
Guys.....when a business is down....Airlines, that were ordering airplanes, left-right and centre......are now cancelling their orders!!!!
These same airlines were hiring crew in accordance to the aircrafts, but now its getting difficult to sustain. There are major paycuts in every airline!!! for everyone!!
People....face it.....reality is ....there is RECESSION ......and we all are going to face the brunt......indian.......expat......cabincrew.....groundstaff .....all alike!
the fuel prices have rendered a real bad crunch in the Indian Aviation Industry. The Brunt is faced by many, including the ground crew. Spicejet terminated services of 23 trainee pilots(Indians) cos they didn't fell the need.
Guys.....when a business is down....Airlines, that were ordering airplanes, left-right and centre......are now cancelling their orders!!!! These same airlines were hiring crew in accordance to the aircrafts, but now its getting difficult to sustain. There are major paycuts in every airline!!! for everyone!!People....face it.....reality is ....there is RECESSION ......and we all are going to face the brunt......indian.......expat......cabincrew.....groundstaff .....all alike!
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Too much Info!
Have gone thru all the threads in this Forum and true that Jobs scene is bad rite now for an Expat. But 3 years back when every thing was green.....why wasn't anyone talking then?
the fuel prices have rendered a real bad crunch in the Indian Aviation Industry. The Brunt is faced by many, including the ground crew. Spicejet terminated services of 23 trainee pilots(Indians) cos they didn't fell the need. Guys.....when a business is down....Airlines, that were ordering airplanes, left-right and centre......are now cancelling their orders!!!! These same airlines were hiring crew in accordance to the aircrafts, but now its getting difficult to sustain. There are major paycuts in every airline!!! for everyone!!
People....face it.....reality is ....there is RECESSION ......and we all are going to face the brunt......indian.......expat......cabincrew.....groundstaff .....all alike!
the fuel prices have rendered a real bad crunch in the Indian Aviation Industry. The Brunt is faced by many, including the ground crew. Spicejet terminated services of 23 trainee pilots(Indians) cos they didn't fell the need.
Guys.....when a business is down....Airlines, that were ordering airplanes, left-right and centre......are now cancelling their orders!!!! These same airlines were hiring crew in accordance to the aircrafts, but now its getting difficult to sustain. There are major paycuts in every airline!!! for everyone!!People....face it.....reality is ....there is RECESSION ......and we all are going to face the brunt......indian.......expat......cabincrew.....groundstaff .....all alike!
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"We are already in talks with Turkish Airlines for subleasing four B777 with crew. If the agreement materialises, these foreign pilots will continue with the company. Otherwise, they will be phased out,” the official added.
Any further news about it???
Any further news about it???
