Orient Thai
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Los Angeles, California, USA
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Beware of OX
I flew B757s at OX in 2004 and 2005 during my furlough from my current job. I don't know about the current pay scale, it was US$4500/month for Capt and $3000/month for F/O + $50/duty day when the MD82s first started operating in 2005 when I left. Namfon told the newhires to expect minimum of 26 duty days each month. That did not translate into 26 flying day (thus adding $1300 to your pay), it just meant you must be available for 26 days.
Now a big warning if you are contemplating applying to OX - DON'T! You can search this forum and read about working conditions and management at OX. In short - "management" does not want to spend any money, expect the crews to exceed duty limitations, don't provide adequate maintenance and little, if any, training. Read about the 1-2-Go crash at Phuket last Sep to understand the company culture there. Here is a link to the Aussie TV report resulted from this crash:
http://sunday.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/...ticle_2357.asp
I don't want my family to fly on OX and I advise my friends to do the same. I'm confident that this sentiment is shared by others who have worked there. I strongly advise that you stay away from OX no matter what they promise you.
Cheers,
Now a big warning if you are contemplating applying to OX - DON'T! You can search this forum and read about working conditions and management at OX. In short - "management" does not want to spend any money, expect the crews to exceed duty limitations, don't provide adequate maintenance and little, if any, training. Read about the 1-2-Go crash at Phuket last Sep to understand the company culture there. Here is a link to the Aussie TV report resulted from this crash:
http://sunday.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/...ticle_2357.asp
I don't want my family to fly on OX and I advise my friends to do the same. I'm confident that this sentiment is shared by others who have worked there. I strongly advise that you stay away from OX no matter what they promise you.
Cheers,
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Orient Thai
I worked at OT on the 747 in 2005. Well, it was the "Wild West" or should I say "the Wild East"
However, I enjoyed Thailand a great deal and if you are single and need a job now and the adventure spirit runs high, why not look at it. Don't expect much and you will not be disappointed. When you write the book on aviation, OT will be an interesting chapter. I am still shaking my head sometimes in disbelieve.
However, I enjoyed Thailand a great deal and if you are single and need a job now and the adventure spirit runs high, why not look at it. Don't expect much and you will not be disappointed. When you write the book on aviation, OT will be an interesting chapter. I am still shaking my head sometimes in disbelieve.
Join Date: May 2006
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You would not recommend OX to anyone? Furthermore you would not want your family to fly on them?
But according to your post you flew for them from 2004-2005. Is that correct?
My question for you is that if the company was so unethical as you insinuate and more importantly unsafe, then why did you stick around workign for them for so long?
But according to your post you flew for them from 2004-2005. Is that correct?
My question for you is that if the company was so unethical as you insinuate and more importantly unsafe, then why did you stick around workign for them for so long?
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Read other posts re: Orient Thai/1-2-Go
Sunchaser,
Yes I worked for OX on the B757 fleet from mid 2004 to end of 2005. Since the company will not pay for training, the pilots must be qualified on the aircraft already. Because there are not many qualified B757 pilots in Asia, the OX B757 fleet were crewed by pilots trained in a western system (Americans, Canucks, Aussies, Kiwis and Brits). Most of us were on furlough from major airlines. Because of that common background, we were united in following FOMs and turning down unsafe aircraft with maintenance deficiencies. In other words, I was pretty confident that the B757 operation was safe.
Initially it was a fun place to work as the company left us alone. After the tsunami and the company began to lose money, the "management" began to cut cost ("temporary" pay cut, and forced unpaid leaves) and want us to do illegal things such as exceed duty limitations. We continue to follow FOMs and refused unsafe aircraft, but the writing was clearly on the wall. The DFO, who looked after the pilots, was forced out and his replacement was eventually let go as well. Those of us with options left for other jobs. I quit when a Thai became the DFO. I'm sure that I would have been the first one to be fired (had I not quit) for I had lots of run-ins (as the B757 scheduler) with the previous DFO regarding duty limitations and dead-heading on the B757 with no rest facility (against what was stated in the FOM of course).
As I suggested earlier, you can search this forum for Orient Thai/1-2-Go to read what others have posted about the working conditions there and the company's unwillingness to spend money. Then you may understand why I will not let my family and my friends fly on the MD-82s and B747s.
I've learned lots when working at OX and formed great friendships. The core group of B757 pilots I worked with are flying together elsewhere. It would be a pleasure for me to work with them again but it's difficult for me to give up 9 years of seniority in a major ALPA carrier.
Again please read posting from others who have worked at OX/1-2-Go to understand my statement.
Cheers,
Betterave
Yes I worked for OX on the B757 fleet from mid 2004 to end of 2005. Since the company will not pay for training, the pilots must be qualified on the aircraft already. Because there are not many qualified B757 pilots in Asia, the OX B757 fleet were crewed by pilots trained in a western system (Americans, Canucks, Aussies, Kiwis and Brits). Most of us were on furlough from major airlines. Because of that common background, we were united in following FOMs and turning down unsafe aircraft with maintenance deficiencies. In other words, I was pretty confident that the B757 operation was safe.
Initially it was a fun place to work as the company left us alone. After the tsunami and the company began to lose money, the "management" began to cut cost ("temporary" pay cut, and forced unpaid leaves) and want us to do illegal things such as exceed duty limitations. We continue to follow FOMs and refused unsafe aircraft, but the writing was clearly on the wall. The DFO, who looked after the pilots, was forced out and his replacement was eventually let go as well. Those of us with options left for other jobs. I quit when a Thai became the DFO. I'm sure that I would have been the first one to be fired (had I not quit) for I had lots of run-ins (as the B757 scheduler) with the previous DFO regarding duty limitations and dead-heading on the B757 with no rest facility (against what was stated in the FOM of course).
As I suggested earlier, you can search this forum for Orient Thai/1-2-Go to read what others have posted about the working conditions there and the company's unwillingness to spend money. Then you may understand why I will not let my family and my friends fly on the MD-82s and B747s.
I've learned lots when working at OX and formed great friendships. The core group of B757 pilots I worked with are flying together elsewhere. It would be a pleasure for me to work with them again but it's difficult for me to give up 9 years of seniority in a major ALPA carrier.
Again please read posting from others who have worked at OX/1-2-Go to understand my statement.
Cheers,
Betterave
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So your saying that the 757 was inheritantly a safe or safer operation than the other fleet's due to the make up of the pilot group demographic's.
Antherwords there backgrounds are from western Legacy carriers or the European and Australian equivalent.
Is it true that a very large percentage of the Captains on the OX 757 fleet were First Officers at there prior carrier and never flew PIC on the 757 prior to getting hired by Orient Thai Ailrines?
Antherwords there backgrounds are from western Legacy carriers or the European and Australian equivalent.
Is it true that a very large percentage of the Captains on the OX 757 fleet were First Officers at there prior carrier and never flew PIC on the 757 prior to getting hired by Orient Thai Ailrines?
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During my time at OX, there were 3 violations on the 747 fleet (at HKG, HND, and ICN) that I knew about but none on the B757. Both fleets suffered engine failures/shutdowns without any accident. So I guess the facts speak for itself.
Yes I do believe the demographics of the B757 pilots resulted in a safer operation due to CRM and experience. Not "inherently" safer but just ended up that way because we use CRM and followed rules. IMHO, the local concept of "avoid loss of face and follow whatever order is given (ie, exceed duty limitation)" is a detriment to aviation safety.
About one third of the B757 Capts were experienced Capts on the aircraft before coming to OX, the remaining were upgraded. Yes most, like myself, were F/Os at the major airlines when we were furloughed; but we were all Capts before being hired by a major airline (Upgrading from F/O to Capt at a "legacy carrier" in North America is of course strictly a function of seniority and nothing else). I had 1300 hrs+ jet PIC and 5600 hrs jet before being furloughed and going to work for OX.
I forgot to mention 2 things in my earlier post. The first is that most of the B757 pilots at OX stayed there because of one person - the DFO who looked after the pilots. He is second generation airline pilot, very knowledgeable, a very capable pilot, and a good leader. Once he was forced out in mid 2005, the B757 pilots began to seek other options. The fact that many followed him to another job speak volumes about his character and ability. Another is that I probably stayed longer than necessary because my wife and I really enjoyed living in Thailand.
Cheers
Yes I do believe the demographics of the B757 pilots resulted in a safer operation due to CRM and experience. Not "inherently" safer but just ended up that way because we use CRM and followed rules. IMHO, the local concept of "avoid loss of face and follow whatever order is given (ie, exceed duty limitation)" is a detriment to aviation safety.
About one third of the B757 Capts were experienced Capts on the aircraft before coming to OX, the remaining were upgraded. Yes most, like myself, were F/Os at the major airlines when we were furloughed; but we were all Capts before being hired by a major airline (Upgrading from F/O to Capt at a "legacy carrier" in North America is of course strictly a function of seniority and nothing else). I had 1300 hrs+ jet PIC and 5600 hrs jet before being furloughed and going to work for OX.
I forgot to mention 2 things in my earlier post. The first is that most of the B757 pilots at OX stayed there because of one person - the DFO who looked after the pilots. He is second generation airline pilot, very knowledgeable, a very capable pilot, and a good leader. Once he was forced out in mid 2005, the B757 pilots began to seek other options. The fact that many followed him to another job speak volumes about his character and ability. Another is that I probably stayed longer than necessary because my wife and I really enjoyed living in Thailand.
Cheers
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Conde, god rest his soul, gave me my break and I have never looked back. Popped in to see Khun Udom the other day and was welcomed like a lost brother. Guess he know who knows what OX is really for.
Guys, OX is what it is!!!! You go there, get what you need, have a blast, laugh over some??? beers and Khun Leechard antics in HKG at pedestrian lights.
Remember....you're airline cadet FO will enjoy your war stories more than you questioning him on his limitations and procedural knowledge.
Life is a journey.........
Guys, OX is what it is!!!! You go there, get what you need, have a blast, laugh over some??? beers and Khun Leechard antics in HKG at pedestrian lights.
Remember....you're airline cadet FO will enjoy your war stories more than you questioning him on his limitations and procedural knowledge.
Life is a journey.........
Agree with you Cokey they were good times that we had there.....I take it that Ken did not make it then as you say god rest his soul, pity as he was a nice chap really. Hope all is well wherever you are, Richard M just popped up on one of the other threads as well, quite a reunion really here on PPRuNE.
I was not aware Ken Conde had passed on until reading the posts in this thread. A google search shows he died in March 2006 from Cancer.
I first met Ken in 1997 when he was the Chief Pilot with Orient Thai/Kampuchea Airlines. I saw him a few times through to about early 2005.
I remember Ken getting into trouble from the Hong Kong authorities for operating a twin engine (minus centre engine) L1011-200 ferry from BKK to HKG (at FL260) without notification of the fact.
He also appears in the record books for operating a L1011 twin engine ferry (minus the port engine) from JED to AUH and onto BOM. Some highly experienced Delta Captains moonlighting with OX during vacation were not prepared to operate the ferry in that configuration and Ken had to position to JED to operate the flight. The two take-offs wore out a set of tyres.
Ken's monthly hours flown and long days were unbelievable. He would go anywhere at any time. He must have had 2 log books.
RIP Ken
I first met Ken in 1997 when he was the Chief Pilot with Orient Thai/Kampuchea Airlines. I saw him a few times through to about early 2005.
I remember Ken getting into trouble from the Hong Kong authorities for operating a twin engine (minus centre engine) L1011-200 ferry from BKK to HKG (at FL260) without notification of the fact.
He also appears in the record books for operating a L1011 twin engine ferry (minus the port engine) from JED to AUH and onto BOM. Some highly experienced Delta Captains moonlighting with OX during vacation were not prepared to operate the ferry in that configuration and Ken had to position to JED to operate the flight. The two take-offs wore out a set of tyres.
Ken's monthly hours flown and long days were unbelievable. He would go anywhere at any time. He must have had 2 log books.
RIP Ken
7 or 8 years ago there was a young guy (may have been Portugese) who Ken Conde took under his wing as a L1011 Copilot. Does anyone know what this guy is doing now ?.
A further snippet re Ken Conde. He claims to have flown a B737-200 from Phoenix to Bangkok as a single pilot operation. The RHS was occupied by a Thai DCA person.
Plausible !.
Plausible !.
And I was the one that had the engine blow as we turned on to the runway.....spent what seemed forever with the Saudi authorities as they thought we had blown the engoine before we landed as bits had taken out the lights!!!!!! We watched the takeoff of Conde from a great distance and then waited on the wrath of the Saudis which fortunately did not come however we were glad that the end of the hajj was coming very soon as they were mightilly upset at what had happened,
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May Udom rest in peace as he flys west.
Hi Guys, its sad but many OTA, OX fellow elum have taken their last flights,
lets just remember the good old times, when everything that was not normal now seems better
then it is presently.
P. Leechard
lets just remember the good old times, when everything that was not normal now seems better
then it is presently.
P. Leechard
