SIN SAT 12th AT 1630 local
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SIN SAT 12th AT 1630 local
Sin 1630 today, RWY 02C for Departure
A large Thunderstorm was dumping down heavy rain, vis was about 1000m, 10 kt tailwind, WINDSHEAR observed and reported. Lightning strikes all around the field.
Almost standing water on the rwy.
Most guys, including us ( CX in a 777) and SQ in a A340-500 elected to wait out the Ts
Not Jetstar and Air India.
Those heroes decided to depart, and they used an intersection to do it.
WHY DO GUYS DO THIS?
WHAT HAPPENED TO COMMON AIRMANSHIP
Not only that, just minutes before Jetstar called for taxi clearance while the tug and crew were still connected ( from taxyway N2 at 1630, you know who you are ) very bad habit to get into. One day you'll taxi over the tug. It's been done many times.
A large Thunderstorm was dumping down heavy rain, vis was about 1000m, 10 kt tailwind, WINDSHEAR observed and reported. Lightning strikes all around the field.
Almost standing water on the rwy.
Most guys, including us ( CX in a 777) and SQ in a A340-500 elected to wait out the Ts
Not Jetstar and Air India.
Those heroes decided to depart, and they used an intersection to do it.
WHY DO GUYS DO THIS?
WHAT HAPPENED TO COMMON AIRMANSHIP
Not only that, just minutes before Jetstar called for taxi clearance while the tug and crew were still connected ( from taxyway N2 at 1630, you know who you are ) very bad habit to get into. One day you'll taxi over the tug. It's been done many times.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: a place in the east
Posts: 270
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not Jetstar and Air India.
WHAT HAPPENED TO COMMON AIRMANSHIP
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: BNE
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GE, let me try to provide a more measured comment.
Firstly, I agree with your sentiments.... poor operational risk management (a more contemporary name for "airmanship").
However, you are running the risk of suffering from "holyer than thou" syndrome. As a probationary Ppruner you need to understand you'll receive a lot of stick for such posts. Particularly given you are from from one of the "majors". This is an obsevation rather than a criticism! I personally think you would be better to consider this situation as such.....
Lets look at the facts:
1. Heavy Rain - Doesn't neccessarily stop a flight if vis is acceptable and standing water is considered in the takeoff calculations. It does of course increase risk.
2. 10kt tailwind. Right on the limit of most airline operations I have been involed in over the last 30 odd years, but not OVER the limit. However, once again increased risk - particularly combined with the rain and an intersection departure.
3. Lightning strikes around the field. This indicates that the thunderstorm is certainly deemed to be "at the station". Some airlines prohibit operations when TS are at, or near, the field however not all. We would need to have insight into the airline SOP's to pass judgement here.
4. "Almost" standing water on the field - there either is or is not standing water. You can't be just a little bit pregnant. Most performance charts I have used have standing water allowances. Again, however, if standing water was indeed evident risk has again increased - hugely, given tailwind, intersection departure and TS.
5. Windshear. I have never been able to "observe" windshear so I'll substitute that for "Forecast and Reported". This is the most damning factor in my view. I don't know any airlines that do not prohibit departure in reported windshear, but again I'm not familiar with both of these airline's SOP's. Certainly the risks associated are in the very high to extreme range if operatring around windshear.
6. Vis - about 1,000m. Well above most takeoff limitations I am aware of for jet operations. At least double the low vis crteria. Risk increased? - certainly, particularly combined with all the above.
7. Finally, asking for taxi clearance whilst still connected to a tug. Never seen any SOP's prohibiting this. Most "checkies" would jump on you for this, but this relates only to "technique" not "procedure" - unless your airline precludes it via SOP. In fact many operators regard this practice as a mitigator agaist a very busy ATC on the ground frequency. However, risk of not ensuring the ground personnel are disconnected before taxi is higher - but managable by most crew with good SA and common sense. The problem here, I guess, is that common sense is the least common of all senses.
So the point of my post is that it is possible that these operators were within SOP's. As a consequence your "preaching" to them could well fall on deaf ears. It could just result in "us and them" mud slinging.
I will support your premise, however, that these sort of activities can indicate questionable "airmanship", and are certainly indicative of a less than mature safety culture.
We deal with risk everyday in our industry ("threat and error" we normally call it). Having the ability to recognize that risk is accumulating, and applying mitigators to control it, is often the most poorly executed aspect of our job.
Having said all that.... great to hear that your approach to the conditions indicates a mature approach to safety. I'm just suggesting you take a similar approach to your posts to avoid a "pprune attack" resulting in the message being lost, which is often the result in this place.
Stay safe!
Firstly, I agree with your sentiments.... poor operational risk management (a more contemporary name for "airmanship").
However, you are running the risk of suffering from "holyer than thou" syndrome. As a probationary Ppruner you need to understand you'll receive a lot of stick for such posts. Particularly given you are from from one of the "majors". This is an obsevation rather than a criticism! I personally think you would be better to consider this situation as such.....
Lets look at the facts:
1. Heavy Rain - Doesn't neccessarily stop a flight if vis is acceptable and standing water is considered in the takeoff calculations. It does of course increase risk.
2. 10kt tailwind. Right on the limit of most airline operations I have been involed in over the last 30 odd years, but not OVER the limit. However, once again increased risk - particularly combined with the rain and an intersection departure.
3. Lightning strikes around the field. This indicates that the thunderstorm is certainly deemed to be "at the station". Some airlines prohibit operations when TS are at, or near, the field however not all. We would need to have insight into the airline SOP's to pass judgement here.
4. "Almost" standing water on the field - there either is or is not standing water. You can't be just a little bit pregnant. Most performance charts I have used have standing water allowances. Again, however, if standing water was indeed evident risk has again increased - hugely, given tailwind, intersection departure and TS.
5. Windshear. I have never been able to "observe" windshear so I'll substitute that for "Forecast and Reported". This is the most damning factor in my view. I don't know any airlines that do not prohibit departure in reported windshear, but again I'm not familiar with both of these airline's SOP's. Certainly the risks associated are in the very high to extreme range if operatring around windshear.
6. Vis - about 1,000m. Well above most takeoff limitations I am aware of for jet operations. At least double the low vis crteria. Risk increased? - certainly, particularly combined with all the above.
7. Finally, asking for taxi clearance whilst still connected to a tug. Never seen any SOP's prohibiting this. Most "checkies" would jump on you for this, but this relates only to "technique" not "procedure" - unless your airline precludes it via SOP. In fact many operators regard this practice as a mitigator agaist a very busy ATC on the ground frequency. However, risk of not ensuring the ground personnel are disconnected before taxi is higher - but managable by most crew with good SA and common sense. The problem here, I guess, is that common sense is the least common of all senses.
So the point of my post is that it is possible that these operators were within SOP's. As a consequence your "preaching" to them could well fall on deaf ears. It could just result in "us and them" mud slinging.
I will support your premise, however, that these sort of activities can indicate questionable "airmanship", and are certainly indicative of a less than mature safety culture.
We deal with risk everyday in our industry ("threat and error" we normally call it). Having the ability to recognize that risk is accumulating, and applying mitigators to control it, is often the most poorly executed aspect of our job.
Having said all that.... great to hear that your approach to the conditions indicates a mature approach to safety. I'm just suggesting you take a similar approach to your posts to avoid a "pprune attack" resulting in the message being lost, which is often the result in this place.
Stay safe!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I get your point Clive but................
I may be a new poster in this forum but I've been flying in Asia for 18 years in all sorts of WX.
It was dangerous and cavallier to take off in such WX. Especially from an intersection.
The F/O and I couldn't believe what we were seeing.
How many crashes have been as a result of operations in or around Ts?
Well One 2 Go in Phuket comes to mind firstly, not to mention a Delta L1011 in Dallas etc etc..............
Don't forget the SQ A340-500 was number 1 at the full length and wouldn't accept the conditions, the Jetstar and Air India heroes then used an intersection to get by him. It's a very bold Captain that goes when others say they wont. ( bold, igorant or just plain dumb )
Glad I wasn't on those aircraft.
I may be a new poster in this forum but I've been flying in Asia for 18 years in all sorts of WX.
It was dangerous and cavallier to take off in such WX. Especially from an intersection.
The F/O and I couldn't believe what we were seeing.How many crashes have been as a result of operations in or around Ts?
Well One 2 Go in Phuket comes to mind firstly, not to mention a Delta L1011 in Dallas etc etc..............
Don't forget the SQ A340-500 was number 1 at the full length and wouldn't accept the conditions, the Jetstar and Air India heroes then used an intersection to get by him. It's a very bold Captain that goes when others say they wont. ( bold, igorant or just plain dumb )
Glad I wasn't on those aircraft.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A 10 kt tailwind by itself is not a problem
1000m by itself is not a problem
But these were associated with a very active Thunderstorm overhead the field and dumping rain, lightening and wind shifts all over the shop.
What does it take for guys to open up their eyes?
We are not paid to take risks, leave that to NASA and Test Pilots
Did they configure their aircraft for "if windshear conditions are expected"
I'll bet they used a derate to save the company money!!
1000m by itself is not a problem
But these were associated with a very active Thunderstorm overhead the field and dumping rain, lightening and wind shifts all over the shop.
What does it take for guys to open up their eyes?
We are not paid to take risks, leave that to NASA and Test Pilots
Did they configure their aircraft for "if windshear conditions are expected"
I'll bet they used a derate to save the company money!!
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: the City by the Bay
Posts: 547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As SLF I certainly appreciate the "meek" (and very sensible) pilots rather then those that risk our lives.
Many years ago , while on a Swissair DC-9 , the pilot attempted landing in Madrid during a tremendous TS (reportedly the worst in a decade) . Everyone else had diverted except us. Luckily we hit a tremendous updraft and sailed back into the blue!! I was happy the captain announced he had given up and we were going to join everyone else in Barcelona.
Upon landing I let him know that I didn't appreciate him risking our lives like that !! He had nothing to say. He knew it.
Many years ago , while on a Swissair DC-9 , the pilot attempted landing in Madrid during a tremendous TS (reportedly the worst in a decade) . Everyone else had diverted except us. Luckily we hit a tremendous updraft and sailed back into the blue!! I was happy the captain announced he had given up and we were going to join everyone else in Barcelona.
Upon landing I let him know that I didn't appreciate him risking our lives like that !! He had nothing to say. He knew it.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can you quote a reference where these operation were illegal??? As far as I can see these operations were within legal limits and SOP's.
You should climb down from your high horse and get the complete story before you start having a cheap dig at other pilots with your 'hollier than thou' attitude.
P.S. For you information the SQ A340-500 was take off limited due to the tail wind component. They were not unable to depart due to the other prevailing conditions.
You should climb down from your high horse and get the complete story before you start having a cheap dig at other pilots with your 'hollier than thou' attitude.
P.S. For you information the SQ A340-500 was take off limited due to the tail wind component. They were not unable to depart due to the other prevailing conditions.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Stormy Peninsular
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Assuming those pilots used derated takeoff in short says it all about you and your intentions. I wouldn't do it all the time myself but taking off in those conditions are within limits. TOGA would be preferable and I'm sure that's what they used.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I never said they were "illegal" just dumb
You heroes do whatever you want to do, just don't rain heavy aluminium down on my head.
I mean do you guys even have the slightest comprehension about what Thunderstorms can and do bring?
ATC didn't even know which runway to use as the wind was 180 deg opposite at each end of the field for a short while as the cell arrived.
How did you know that the wind wasn't going to increase the a lot more than 10 kts tailwind due to downdrafts from the rapidly approaching cell?
Would you like to encounter a 20 kt tailwind on rotate?
Would you like to get hit by lightening on the roll or at 100' after T/O?
Would you like to fly straight into large hail stones at 100'?
Would you like to encounter mod to sev turb at 100'?
This was quite a large active cell located dead smack over the threshold of 02C and moving north ALONG the runway.
And you want to risk yourselves and your Pax for what? a bigger bonus? a pat on the back from the boss?
Why do you take the obvious risk?
There was no reason NOT to wait.
I guess you "won the bet" and were right, the WX was ok for T/O.
next time???????????????
You heroes do whatever you want to do, just don't rain heavy aluminium down on my head.
I mean do you guys even have the slightest comprehension about what Thunderstorms can and do bring?
ATC didn't even know which runway to use as the wind was 180 deg opposite at each end of the field for a short while as the cell arrived.
How did you know that the wind wasn't going to increase the a lot more than 10 kts tailwind due to downdrafts from the rapidly approaching cell?
Would you like to encounter a 20 kt tailwind on rotate?
Would you like to get hit by lightening on the roll or at 100' after T/O?
Would you like to fly straight into large hail stones at 100'?
Would you like to encounter mod to sev turb at 100'?
This was quite a large active cell located dead smack over the threshold of 02C and moving north ALONG the runway.
And you want to risk yourselves and your Pax for what? a bigger bonus? a pat on the back from the boss?
Why do you take the obvious risk?
There was no reason NOT to wait.
I guess you "won the bet" and were right, the WX was ok for T/O.
next time???????????????
Last edited by GE90115BL2; 13th Jan 2008 at 10:27.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OCNL Ts: I suppose you were the Aussie in the Jetstar Bus?
The one that called for Taxi while the engineer and tow bar were still connected?
What was the rush?
A good way to set yourself up for a real cockup.
The one that called for Taxi while the engineer and tow bar were still connected?
What was the rush?
A good way to set yourself up for a real cockup.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Earth
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey there GE,
Cool down, you'll give yourself a heart attack. As a total chicken I hear what you are saying. I too have been flying heavy jets for decades. But raving and ranting will not get your point across. Just as raving and ranting will not get a student pilot to learn faster or act correctly under pressure.
You have made valid points regarding windshear, contaminated runways etc. and, we all strive toward safety. Sometimes we all can and do make bad decisions, perhaps because we are human and are after all, considered the weakest link in the safety chain. Don't you remember scaring your goodself at least once in your illustrious career. And didn't you learn from that bad decision! I know I have, and I believe this has made me a safer and better operator. Perhaps you like I had a chance to make most of our mistakes in Cessna's, Pipers and Barons hauling bank cheques and news papers all alone in some remote part of the world where nobody cared if a tiny piece of aluminium fell out of the sky. But the young ones these days learn on the 737 or 320. And unfortunately they did not have a chance to make mistakes on the little ones but due to the nature of aviation today make those same mistakes on the jets.
I constantly dream of a perfect world with perfect rules and an aviation industry with a perfect record. But its not going to happen and we will sadly have to learn from the mistakes of others.
Wooblah.
Cool down, you'll give yourself a heart attack. As a total chicken I hear what you are saying. I too have been flying heavy jets for decades. But raving and ranting will not get your point across. Just as raving and ranting will not get a student pilot to learn faster or act correctly under pressure.
You have made valid points regarding windshear, contaminated runways etc. and, we all strive toward safety. Sometimes we all can and do make bad decisions, perhaps because we are human and are after all, considered the weakest link in the safety chain. Don't you remember scaring your goodself at least once in your illustrious career. And didn't you learn from that bad decision! I know I have, and I believe this has made me a safer and better operator. Perhaps you like I had a chance to make most of our mistakes in Cessna's, Pipers and Barons hauling bank cheques and news papers all alone in some remote part of the world where nobody cared if a tiny piece of aluminium fell out of the sky. But the young ones these days learn on the 737 or 320. And unfortunately they did not have a chance to make mistakes on the little ones but due to the nature of aviation today make those same mistakes on the jets.
I constantly dream of a perfect world with perfect rules and an aviation industry with a perfect record. But its not going to happen and we will sadly have to learn from the mistakes of others.
Wooblah.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: malaysia
Posts: 404
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cleared for take off
Dear Capt Wooblah...I always knew there was a soft spot in you.
I like the cool down and heart attack...nice to read.
Keep it up Capt Woo...your blahs are getting better.. I know you can and will contribute a lot to a society of matured and safe aviators.
You are trainer and a teacher..that's in your blood man...use it to the max.
I like the cool down and heart attack...nice to read.
Keep it up Capt Woo...your blahs are getting better.. I know you can and will contribute a lot to a society of matured and safe aviators.
You are trainer and a teacher..that's in your blood man...use it to the max.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Capt Wooblah: yeah ok......
........I'm settled. I too have seen cockups from within my own flight deck. Been there done that !!
As Professional Flight Crew we are the last line of defence, the last hole in the swiss cheese. etc etc We cannot afford to become flippant about such things, in the past Crews have become flippant and they AND their pax paid the ultimate price.
Anyway I think I made my point.
Don't F
with mother nature.
........I'm settled. I too have seen cockups from within my own flight deck. Been there done that !!As Professional Flight Crew we are the last line of defence, the last hole in the swiss cheese. etc etc We cannot afford to become flippant about such things, in the past Crews have become flippant and they AND their pax paid the ultimate price.
Anyway I think I made my point.
Don't F
with mother nature.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Switzerland, Singapore
Posts: 1,309
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wasn't there this day, but as far as I remember:
SIN can be very rainy in TS, but it goes by quickly. They might have planned to taxi on the runway and then check their radars. Most of the time I was there, the XXTS was away earlier than I could roll on the RWY.
There are wind shears sometimes, but they are never that extreme like in the northern hemisphere. Biggest problem is the heavy rainfall taking away your visibility. If you stay low out of the cells, you might escape the red thingies on the radar.
But, as I mentioned, I wasn't there, so I couldn't decide...
Dani
SIN can be very rainy in TS, but it goes by quickly. They might have planned to taxi on the runway and then check their radars. Most of the time I was there, the XXTS was away earlier than I could roll on the RWY.
There are wind shears sometimes, but they are never that extreme like in the northern hemisphere. Biggest problem is the heavy rainfall taking away your visibility. If you stay low out of the cells, you might escape the red thingies on the radar.
But, as I mentioned, I wasn't there, so I couldn't decide...
Dani
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes Dani you weren't there.
Granted Ts Cells in the Tropics can be all bark and no bite but this one was pretty good. We had a good look on the Radar when turning through a SE HDG whilst joining taxyway EP early on before it hit the field ( and yes it was clear in front of us for half the airfield ) and it was very red with majenta turb areas as well. 5 mins later we couldn't turn on the radar again as there were aircraft in front.
On this day they got away with it, but one day they wont..........
The Pilot of the One Two Go in Phuket obviously thought the same as them, and look what happened on that day.
Granted Ts Cells in the Tropics can be all bark and no bite but this one was pretty good. We had a good look on the Radar when turning through a SE HDG whilst joining taxyway EP early on before it hit the field ( and yes it was clear in front of us for half the airfield ) and it was very red with majenta turb areas as well. 5 mins later we couldn't turn on the radar again as there were aircraft in front.
On this day they got away with it, but one day they wont..........
The Pilot of the One Two Go in Phuket obviously thought the same as them, and look what happened on that day.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: out there somewhere...
Posts: 763
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OCNL Ts...you sound like my old boss! Always right and always in the office...we called him the "Seagull" (you had to throw rocks at him to get him to fly!) Stay out of my jet will ya?