Housing allowance SIA Cargo
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Housing allowance SIA Cargo
Interesting read in Straits Times today.
Rents in Singapore are on average 86 % of the Hong Kong average. From what I can find on Pprune, housing allowance in CX is 48000 HKD. (Correct me if I'm wrong, please).
That is 9300 SGD. HA in SIA Cargo is... 3200.
So: Rents are 86 % of HK but Housing is 34 % of CX.
Don't know the salary in CX so I can't compare the total remuneration but it seems like it's getting difficult to find an affordable place for a large family in Singapore.
Rents in Singapore are on average 86 % of the Hong Kong average. From what I can find on Pprune, housing allowance in CX is 48000 HKD. (Correct me if I'm wrong, please).
That is 9300 SGD. HA in SIA Cargo is... 3200.
So: Rents are 86 % of HK but Housing is 34 % of CX.
Don't know the salary in CX so I can't compare the total remuneration but it seems like it's getting difficult to find an affordable place for a large family in Singapore.
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It is difficult but so what?
If you want housing agents falling over themselves to offer you accomodation for your large family, then be prepared to pay for the convenience of not hunting down a place that matches your expectations and budget.
$3200 will still get you a decent house (maybe EVEN a condo) within 10km of the airport. You just have to make the effort to look for it. If you expect nice properties to be presented to you by prancing girls on bended knee at prices within your allowance, dream on.
Many MANY pilots working for other airlines based in SIN are happy to live in HDB accomodation and save the difference between allowance and actual expenditure. Is it so disagreeable to live in HDB?
Or is it a case of the sheep not wanting to mix with the goats?
If you want housing agents falling over themselves to offer you accomodation for your large family, then be prepared to pay for the convenience of not hunting down a place that matches your expectations and budget.
$3200 will still get you a decent house (maybe EVEN a condo) within 10km of the airport. You just have to make the effort to look for it. If you expect nice properties to be presented to you by prancing girls on bended knee at prices within your allowance, dream on.
Many MANY pilots working for other airlines based in SIN are happy to live in HDB accomodation and save the difference between allowance and actual expenditure. Is it so disagreeable to live in HDB?
Or is it a case of the sheep not wanting to mix with the goats?
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Personnally, I don't know any expat pilot with a family of 4 (or 5)
living in a HDB flat. (Do you?) Would be interesting to learn if they feel happy.
It DOES look like that it will be the only choice left, condo rentals
are simply doubling overnight (make it 6 months)
By the way, those SGD 3200 are taxable,so it is closer to 2700.
living in a HDB flat. (Do you?) Would be interesting to learn if they feel happy.
It DOES look like that it will be the only choice left, condo rentals
are simply doubling overnight (make it 6 months)
By the way, those SGD 3200 are taxable,so it is closer to 2700.
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Personnally, I don't know any expat pilot with a family of 4 (or 5)
living in a HDB flat. (Do you?)
living in a HDB flat. (Do you?)
Would be interesting to learn if they feel happy.
It DOES look like that it will be the only choice left, condo rentals
are simply doubling overnight (make it 6 months)
are simply doubling overnight (make it 6 months)
[QUOTE]By the way, those SGD 3200 are taxable,so it is closer to 2700./QUOTE]
Even at $2700 there is enough.
What part of "living within your means" is so difficult for certain expats to understand?
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I think the point is that despite what thermal image has to say about the subject, there has been a huge rise in monthly rental costs in the last 18 months in Singapore. An apartment that cost S$3000 last year now costs S$5500. The rental allowance has not kept pace with the rises.
Why would anybody travel thousands of miles and relocate their families to move into an HDB, which is essentially a very clean, well maintained council flat.
You can argue the rights and wrongs about hiring expats. I feel sure that if situations were reversed there would be major industrial unrest, but the bottom line is that you get what you pay for in terms of quality. The best people will inevitably go for the best package. Its simple supply and demand.
I appreciate that some locals object to housing allowance being paid to expats but the bottom line is that expats are applying to a job offer, not setting the policy. If you don't like the policy object to the company not the individual pilots, who are only trying to make a living.
Why would anybody travel thousands of miles and relocate their families to move into an HDB, which is essentially a very clean, well maintained council flat.
You can argue the rights and wrongs about hiring expats. I feel sure that if situations were reversed there would be major industrial unrest, but the bottom line is that you get what you pay for in terms of quality. The best people will inevitably go for the best package. Its simple supply and demand.
I appreciate that some locals object to housing allowance being paid to expats but the bottom line is that expats are applying to a job offer, not setting the policy. If you don't like the policy object to the company not the individual pilots, who are only trying to make a living.
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Relax TI,
and please don't give me the racist BS about "Or is it a case of the sheep not wanting to mix with the goats?".
I can live side by side with anyone (except maybe George Bush) and in my condo there's people from all the world. Actually, most of them are Singaporean.
I pay a little more than 6000 and that's well within my means. However, the housing in SIA has increased by less than 10 % since 2004. At the same time the rents have doubled so the discrepancy between SIA and CX is remarkable.
It's wonderful for the Singaporean economy that the wheels are spinning so fast and for most locals who own their place it's a blessing but for an expat who can't plan ahead longer than the contract remains the constant increases in rent create problems.
In many cases the increase has meant that families have had to move. It's not a question about "lowering standards" as some unfortunately expresses it. The biggest problem is that you might have settled close to a school and moving means a long commute or changing school (and friends) for the kids.
and please don't give me the racist BS about "Or is it a case of the sheep not wanting to mix with the goats?".
I can live side by side with anyone (except maybe George Bush) and in my condo there's people from all the world. Actually, most of them are Singaporean.
I pay a little more than 6000 and that's well within my means. However, the housing in SIA has increased by less than 10 % since 2004. At the same time the rents have doubled so the discrepancy between SIA and CX is remarkable.
It's wonderful for the Singaporean economy that the wheels are spinning so fast and for most locals who own their place it's a blessing but for an expat who can't plan ahead longer than the contract remains the constant increases in rent create problems.
In many cases the increase has meant that families have had to move. It's not a question about "lowering standards" as some unfortunately expresses it. The biggest problem is that you might have settled close to a school and moving means a long commute or changing school (and friends) for the kids.
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Long Commute?
Expat 400,
Most expat children attend school in the central part of Singapore. The distance between the furthest populated area and the central part of Singapore would not be further than 20km.
What "long commute" are you talking about?
Most expat children attend school in the central part of Singapore. The distance between the furthest populated area and the central part of Singapore would not be further than 20km.
What "long commute" are you talking about?
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TI, We all live within our means. That is not the issue. What is the issue is that SIA Cargo have reduced those means by not increasing housing allowance in line with the market rate.
I realise that it is, perhaps, a difficult concept for a non expat to get their head around but it is actually very simple. Expats gets paid a salary plus either housing allowance direct to salary or they have housing provided for them by the company. Either way, the salary element of pay should not be required for housing. Its the same the expat world over.
When I joined SIA Cargo, that was the case. Now it is not and many expats are actively looking elsewhere. Short term, that may have you clapping your hands but please bear in mind that expats are in Singapore because they are needed. You want to keep them, you listen to market forces.
I realise that it is, perhaps, a difficult concept for a non expat to get their head around but it is actually very simple. Expats gets paid a salary plus either housing allowance direct to salary or they have housing provided for them by the company. Either way, the salary element of pay should not be required for housing. Its the same the expat world over.
When I joined SIA Cargo, that was the case. Now it is not and many expats are actively looking elsewhere. Short term, that may have you clapping your hands but please bear in mind that expats are in Singapore because they are needed. You want to keep them, you listen to market forces.
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expat400
I pay a little more than 6000 and that's well within my means. However, the housing in SIA has increased by less than 10 % since 2004. At the same time the rents have doubled so the discrepancy between SIA and CX is remarkable.
Let me make it simple for you regarding your options, be it private houses or HDB flats. Some background facts first.
Between 80-90% (depending on which source of information you refer to) of Singaporeans live in HDB flats, and they also own those units. There's no shame in that.
References:
http://www.economywatch.com/mortgage/singapore.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m..._18910973/pg_5
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/pubn/papers/people/op-s9.pdf
So, at most, 20% of Singaporeans live in private housing (comprising condo units and private houses, probably much less now because the above statistics are not so recent and HDB housing growth is faster than private housing growth), with most of that 20% owning the units they live in. Which explains why you have many local neighbours in your condo, being likely to own the units they live in, as opposed to renting said units.
In other words, more likely than not, Singaporeans, whether they live in public or private housing, are owner-occupiers.
So then, who are the renters? Since they are not likely to be Singaporeans, surprise surprise, they are the expats.
Now, since owner occupied housing (public or private) outnumber rental housing (public or private) by 4 : 1, there is a limited supply of rental units available.
And since expats are most likely renters not owners, who then are the ones driving up the prices?
Your dear fellow expats.
Not Singaporeans trying to displace you from your condos.
And if you are still not able to bring yourself to move into an HDB unit, then by all means up and leave for CX and their generous housing allowance for tiny tiny units and then choke to death in Hong Kong.
and please don't give me the racist BS about "Or is it a case of the sheep not wanting to mix with the goats?".
Perhaps the remark stung because you are in fact racist and felt that somehow it referred to the racist in you.
It's wonderful for the Singaporean economy that the wheels are spinning so fast and for most locals who own their place it's a blessing but for an expat who can't plan ahead longer than the contract remains the constant increases in rent create problems.
In many cases the increase has meant that families have had to move. It's not a question about "lowering standards" as some unfortunately expresses it. The biggest problem is that you might have settled close to a school and moving means a long commute or changing school (and friends) for the kids.
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segajet
Why would anybody travel thousands of miles and relocate their families to move into an HDB, which is essentially a very clean, well maintained council flat.
Refer to the statistics I have provided.
If you are correct then between 80-90% of the population ought to be treated with a certain contempt because they live in HDB units.
YOU are the one equating HDB units with council houses / dirty peasants. Exactly the sort of sheep I refer to which does not want to mix with the goats.
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TI, What you say may, or may not be accurate. It doesn't matter because it is not relevant to expats or their contracts.
The point that has been well made on this and many other threads is that Housing Allowance used to be sufficient to rent accommodation. Now it is not. Some people have tried to muddy the waters by bringing in arguments which may be true statements of fact but which are also totally irrelevant to the topic under discussion.
I do understand that Housing Allowance can be an emotive topic - especially if you are not receiving it, but the bottom line is that an expat anywhere in the world should not have to contribute anything from salary to rent accommodation. May I suggest you do some research on what expat middle managers in the Finance and IT sector etc are being paid in Housing Allowance in Singapore. It starts at $5k pcm and some get paid significantly more. We wont even mention annual holiday entitlement, guaranteed airline tickets etc.
Please try not to look on this from an isolated Singapore point of view - it's a global practice in a global market place and it's here to stay.
The point that has been well made on this and many other threads is that Housing Allowance used to be sufficient to rent accommodation. Now it is not. Some people have tried to muddy the waters by bringing in arguments which may be true statements of fact but which are also totally irrelevant to the topic under discussion.
I do understand that Housing Allowance can be an emotive topic - especially if you are not receiving it, but the bottom line is that an expat anywhere in the world should not have to contribute anything from salary to rent accommodation. May I suggest you do some research on what expat middle managers in the Finance and IT sector etc are being paid in Housing Allowance in Singapore. It starts at $5k pcm and some get paid significantly more. We wont even mention annual holiday entitlement, guaranteed airline tickets etc.
Please try not to look on this from an isolated Singapore point of view - it's a global practice in a global market place and it's here to stay.
Older HDBs are a bit basic, the principle behind them being mass housing as quickly as possible. Progressively they are being upgraded with priority given to areas that voted for the Peoples Action Party (Singapore Government)
Newer HDBs, and a class called HDB Executive are very acceptable. HDB Executive is indistinguishable from private condos and typically includes pool, tennis court, gym, BBQ area, and even sauna and jacuzzi. HDB estates are well planned with easy access to shop, schools, doctors and transport. You can manage easily without a car.
True rents have gone up a huge amount recently. Most people I talk to coming to the end of a two year lease are looking at an 80-100% increase. Some of the most desirable areas in town have gone up 300%.
Most pilots cannot afford the top end of town in their home countries and shouldn't expect to in Singapore. How many London pilots live in Mayfair/Knightsbridge/Kensington ?
S$3500 will get a perfectly acceptable place but not in a prime area. Yes you will be living more with locals then expats but if that isn't a problem you can save a lot of money. Shop prices in the expat areas are geared towards foreigners.
Public transport is excellent, safe and cheap. Many schools have their own bus and pick the kids up from home.
It is a very westernised country with almost everyone speaking English. Quite easy to adapt to, the more "local" you go the cheaper it gets.
I would take a HDB over a council estate anyday.
Newer HDBs, and a class called HDB Executive are very acceptable. HDB Executive is indistinguishable from private condos and typically includes pool, tennis court, gym, BBQ area, and even sauna and jacuzzi. HDB estates are well planned with easy access to shop, schools, doctors and transport. You can manage easily without a car.
True rents have gone up a huge amount recently. Most people I talk to coming to the end of a two year lease are looking at an 80-100% increase. Some of the most desirable areas in town have gone up 300%.
Most pilots cannot afford the top end of town in their home countries and shouldn't expect to in Singapore. How many London pilots live in Mayfair/Knightsbridge/Kensington ?
S$3500 will get a perfectly acceptable place but not in a prime area. Yes you will be living more with locals then expats but if that isn't a problem you can save a lot of money. Shop prices in the expat areas are geared towards foreigners.
Public transport is excellent, safe and cheap. Many schools have their own bus and pick the kids up from home.
It is a very westernised country with almost everyone speaking English. Quite easy to adapt to, the more "local" you go the cheaper it gets.
I would take a HDB over a council estate anyday.
Please don't take this the wrong way, Thermal Image, but are you someone of importance that we should all be seeking to suck up to? (Serious question, so hope you will answer unambiguously.)
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MM, most expats I know didn't rent in the equivalent of Mayfair etc. What they did do was rent within the housing allowance 2 or 3 years ago. Now they find that at tenancy renewal they are looking at $2-3000 pcm increase in rental whilst the company have only given a $200 pcm increase in the allowance.
Options?
1. Pay the balance from salary. Unacceptable.
2. Move to a cheaper area, uproot family, move kids to new schools etc.
Also unacceptable.
3. Leave. For many, a preferable choice - especially as there are so many
well paid positions available.
Sadly, I think SIA Cargo will not react until a lot of people have left. How nice it would be if they could actually do the right thing without HR having to get the calculators out for once.
Options?
1. Pay the balance from salary. Unacceptable.
2. Move to a cheaper area, uproot family, move kids to new schools etc.
Also unacceptable.
3. Leave. For many, a preferable choice - especially as there are so many
well paid positions available.
Sadly, I think SIA Cargo will not react until a lot of people have left. How nice it would be if they could actually do the right thing without HR having to get the calculators out for once.
Jetstar captains got a S$1000/month pay rise to help off set rent increases, and I see that wages in general rose 8.5% last year.
Since the property market crash 11 years ago rents have been unrealistically low and landlords are now trying to make up for past losses. If you bought at the peak, only now is your property coming back to being worth what you paid for it.
Fair point about people who previously rented within the housing allowance and are no being forced to move or pay up, I was thinking more about new arrivals.
I know of a few people looking at other jobs at the moment, once resignations start coming in management might wake up. It would be nice if they kept pace with market rates of pay and looked after their staff without waiting for this.
Since the property market crash 11 years ago rents have been unrealistically low and landlords are now trying to make up for past losses. If you bought at the peak, only now is your property coming back to being worth what you paid for it.
Fair point about people who previously rented within the housing allowance and are no being forced to move or pay up, I was thinking more about new arrivals.
I know of a few people looking at other jobs at the moment, once resignations start coming in management might wake up. It would be nice if they kept pace with market rates of pay and looked after their staff without waiting for this.
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Bananasbananas
The point that has been well made on this and many other threads is that Housing Allowance used to be sufficient to rent accommodation. Now it is not.
If you moaners say it is not enough, that is because YOU are looking at your choices and the prices that are demanded of it. That is a fact.
It is NOT as though the HA will only get you a broom closet in a slum 200 miles from Changi.
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anito4A
Obviously you can't even recognise sarcasm.
Or maybe my expat friends are under some hallucination that I can wave my hand and then their contracts won't get extended and/or their base checks will mysteriously become difficult.
Or maybe my expat friends are under some hallucination that I can wave my hand and then their contracts won't get extended and/or their base checks will mysteriously become difficult.
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Market Forces
At the end of the day, it all boils down to market forces. Nobody owes anyone anything.
If SIA/SIA Cargo can keep its expat community with current HA, it will. If it cannot, it will increase it. Simple as that.
Correct me if I am wrong but I think Silkair/Tiger Air captains do not get any housing allowances. Why? Because the company can get away with it.
The grass always seem greener on the otherside. Who is giving a better deal? Why hasn't there been a mass exodus? We have pilots from Emirates and Korean who have left and join SIA Cargo.
Everyone would like more but one must understand the basics of economics, demand and supply.
The more you get worked up, the worse of your life is. No point banging your head against the brick wall of basic economics.
CargoBoy
If SIA/SIA Cargo can keep its expat community with current HA, it will. If it cannot, it will increase it. Simple as that.
Correct me if I am wrong but I think Silkair/Tiger Air captains do not get any housing allowances. Why? Because the company can get away with it.
The grass always seem greener on the otherside. Who is giving a better deal? Why hasn't there been a mass exodus? We have pilots from Emirates and Korean who have left and join SIA Cargo.
Everyone would like more but one must understand the basics of economics, demand and supply.
The more you get worked up, the worse of your life is. No point banging your head against the brick wall of basic economics.
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Fair point actually Cargo Boy. The old argument about you are only worth what you can negotiate works both ways. Its also true that you only get what you pay for and, at the moment, SIA Cargo are paying for less so they get less from me.
There are also a lot of very talented individuals who are being less than forthcoming when it comes to applying for training and management, preferring to spend as much time away from the office as possible.
Pay peanuts get monkeys - now, where did I leave my banana?
There are also a lot of very talented individuals who are being less than forthcoming when it comes to applying for training and management, preferring to spend as much time away from the office as possible.
Pay peanuts get monkeys - now, where did I leave my banana?
Last edited by BANANASBANANAS; 17th Sep 2007 at 05:26.