Beijing PanAm - disrespect and humiliation of instructors
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Seems that the guys in Baotou are finally stepping up to the plate and standing up for what needs to be fixed.
There is a list of 19 things that the instructors demand BPIAA to correct within 2 weeks.... and clearly stated that neither 19 items are negotiable.
Congradulations guys, I hope that the Chinese management can come to the realization that inexperienced managers, regardless of how much they are paid, or how many there are, does not qualify for a good, safe, efficient flight school.
I seriously doubt though they will take this seriously. They'll probably suspend you all and dock your pay.. hope none of you "mysteriously" disappear.
There is a list of 19 things that the instructors demand BPIAA to correct within 2 weeks.... and clearly stated that neither 19 items are negotiable.
Congradulations guys, I hope that the Chinese management can come to the realization that inexperienced managers, regardless of how much they are paid, or how many there are, does not qualify for a good, safe, efficient flight school.
I seriously doubt though they will take this seriously. They'll probably suspend you all and dock your pay.. hope none of you "mysteriously" disappear.
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Where is he?
What happened to the Hero of the El Alamo?
Is it true that he has left?
I will always remember the speech he gave us, one cold friday morning...
ah the good old days of the "7 o'clock instructors meetings..."
he actully read us a letter sent by the officer commanding the fort of el alamo besieged by the mexicans, where mister travis was saying he'd never surrender...
has our own hero finally surrendered?
wasn't he supposed to fight for us, tooth and nail?
wasn't he going to reveal to the world all the bad things done by the chinese management?
wasn't he going to expose the pilot who forged logbooks and his own medical so he could fly a citation?
has he run?
where is the hero of the alamo, ex-fed, ex-faa, etc...?
Is it true that he has left?
I will always remember the speech he gave us, one cold friday morning...
ah the good old days of the "7 o'clock instructors meetings..."
he actully read us a letter sent by the officer commanding the fort of el alamo besieged by the mexicans, where mister travis was saying he'd never surrender...
has our own hero finally surrendered?
wasn't he supposed to fight for us, tooth and nail?
wasn't he going to reveal to the world all the bad things done by the chinese management?
wasn't he going to expose the pilot who forged logbooks and his own medical so he could fly a citation?
has he run?
where is the hero of the alamo, ex-fed, ex-faa, etc...?
Last edited by flyingzorro; 7th Oct 2007 at 03:47.
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Ha Ha Ha!!!
Ha Ha!!
Why Zorro, what an ugly thing to say. I abhore ugliness. Does this mean we're not friends anymore? You know, Zorro, if I thought you were'nt my friend, I just don't think I could bear it!!
Like to correct you and enlighten you on a few things:
1. I didn't surrender; I was defeated (as was Chuck, Pat, and every other foreign manager in that place).
2. HELLO PPRUNE SUBSCRIBERS: Please inform everyone you know that I failed miserably in my job and in stopping the Chinese corruption and bribery so Zorro can get a life. Please tell everyone I left PanAm, with proper notice according to my contract, I might add. You damn right, I left that place. Have you?
3. I don't need to inform the world about the corrupt management at Bejing PanAm. Pprune has served that purpose well. Thanks to the Pprune staff for providing this avenue to expose the falsifications, corruption, and bribery to the aviation world.
And most importantly, I'd like to thank Pprune for providing me information on the following:
Two days ago, a formal letter was submitted to the Chinese Management at Bejing PanAm listing 19 demands that must be met by October 20, 2007, or the foreign instructors would not report for duty. A "strike", for a better lack of words. According to sources in Bautou, this letter was signed by all instructors and delivered to the management.
These demands stated that there would be "no negotiations or compromise." One item in particular caught my attention, and that was the instructors were demanding a "Search and Rescue Plan" for each base. That's probably a good idea since in the last year there has been:
(a) A mid-air collision
(b) A near mid-air collision
(c) At least 4 major prop strikes without engine teardowns
(d) A road landing
(e) A powerline strike
(f) No telling what other incidents that were never reported or covered up
I have since learned that the group leader for the instructors has already been threatened by the Senior Vice President to be "punished" for submitting this letter and organizing the instructors. After this threat, it appears some instructors are backing down from their initial demands? Excuse me, "no negotiations or compromise." Am I saying that correctly? Are you guys backing away from safety?
So, Zorro, I guess you've got Sam Houston to lead you to victory at San Jacinto since the Alamo fell. Problem is, you've already issued an "ultimatum" to the "enemy", in writing, and signed by the instructors at the Bautou base. Now some of you are "retreating?" You're not going to support General Houston? That's the "pot calling the kettle black", bubba!!
You going to cross the picket line; become a SCAB!!
Here's the deal, Zorro. If the instructors that signed that document don't support the group leader and follow through with this, they will be the laughing stock of Pprune and the aviation world. "NO NEGOTIATIONS AND NO COMPROMISE."
All the ex-panamer's and the rest of the subscribers are watching and waiting. Let's see if you put your money where your mouth is! What's more important; safety and dignity, or money and flight hours? At what price are you going to sell you soul or the LIFE OF YOUR FELLOW PILOT? (refer to incidents listed above)
Zorro, you could do me a favor. If you're going to refer to history, please be accurate with your personal annonymous description. Zorro, in legend, was a hero to the Mexican people. Santa Ana was for real and an "
hole." Please change your name accordingly.
Go carve your "Z" on some other thread!!
Howard
P.S. By the way, if you want to know where I'm at, just ask the former PanAm instructors that are working for me...quite happily, I might add, but don't apply...I don't need any "masked men" working around here.
Why Zorro, what an ugly thing to say. I abhore ugliness. Does this mean we're not friends anymore? You know, Zorro, if I thought you were'nt my friend, I just don't think I could bear it!!
Like to correct you and enlighten you on a few things:
1. I didn't surrender; I was defeated (as was Chuck, Pat, and every other foreign manager in that place).
2. HELLO PPRUNE SUBSCRIBERS: Please inform everyone you know that I failed miserably in my job and in stopping the Chinese corruption and bribery so Zorro can get a life. Please tell everyone I left PanAm, with proper notice according to my contract, I might add. You damn right, I left that place. Have you?
3. I don't need to inform the world about the corrupt management at Bejing PanAm. Pprune has served that purpose well. Thanks to the Pprune staff for providing this avenue to expose the falsifications, corruption, and bribery to the aviation world.
And most importantly, I'd like to thank Pprune for providing me information on the following:
Two days ago, a formal letter was submitted to the Chinese Management at Bejing PanAm listing 19 demands that must be met by October 20, 2007, or the foreign instructors would not report for duty. A "strike", for a better lack of words. According to sources in Bautou, this letter was signed by all instructors and delivered to the management.
These demands stated that there would be "no negotiations or compromise." One item in particular caught my attention, and that was the instructors were demanding a "Search and Rescue Plan" for each base. That's probably a good idea since in the last year there has been:
(a) A mid-air collision
(b) A near mid-air collision
(c) At least 4 major prop strikes without engine teardowns
(d) A road landing
(e) A powerline strike
(f) No telling what other incidents that were never reported or covered up
I have since learned that the group leader for the instructors has already been threatened by the Senior Vice President to be "punished" for submitting this letter and organizing the instructors. After this threat, it appears some instructors are backing down from their initial demands? Excuse me, "no negotiations or compromise." Am I saying that correctly? Are you guys backing away from safety?
So, Zorro, I guess you've got Sam Houston to lead you to victory at San Jacinto since the Alamo fell. Problem is, you've already issued an "ultimatum" to the "enemy", in writing, and signed by the instructors at the Bautou base. Now some of you are "retreating?" You're not going to support General Houston? That's the "pot calling the kettle black", bubba!!
You going to cross the picket line; become a SCAB!!Here's the deal, Zorro. If the instructors that signed that document don't support the group leader and follow through with this, they will be the laughing stock of Pprune and the aviation world. "NO NEGOTIATIONS AND NO COMPROMISE."
All the ex-panamer's and the rest of the subscribers are watching and waiting. Let's see if you put your money where your mouth is! What's more important; safety and dignity, or money and flight hours? At what price are you going to sell you soul or the LIFE OF YOUR FELLOW PILOT? (refer to incidents listed above)
Zorro, you could do me a favor. If you're going to refer to history, please be accurate with your personal annonymous description. Zorro, in legend, was a hero to the Mexican people. Santa Ana was for real and an "
hole." Please change your name accordingly.Go carve your "Z" on some other thread!!
Howard
P.S. By the way, if you want to know where I'm at, just ask the former PanAm instructors that are working for me...quite happily, I might add, but don't apply...I don't need any "masked men" working around here.
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My Gripe with BPIAA, CAAC, and China:
1) Wants foreign help, but won't actually admit it. They'll invite you in, but when they give you a test that was originally in English.. then translated to Chinese, then retranslated to pre-kindergarden english.. and expect you to pass it.. I gave up hope.
2) Invites me, yes me.. to meet with CAAC test officials in Beijing, along with a foreign English speaking Hong Kong citizen who is also FAA pilot to correct all questions as originally planned over a period of 4 days, was cut short to just 150 questions in 1 day. 4 months later, none of the 150 questions fixed had been circulated in the test bank.
3) BPIAA President Jack Li assured the instructors who have been trying to pass the test "had passed" by negotiating with CAAC to change their asinine 80% passing score. Of course this was a lie. He said it was a done deal, but fell through (most likely due to insufficient funds on the bribery-wallet). So instead, it was for us all to take the un-edited, Australian-CASA ATP written exam, since CAAC uses their exam for CAAC ATP exams. Wrong.. that was never approved either.
4) During company trips between Shijiazhuang - Hohhot on company business, by company paid airfare.. was told Baotou would send bus to pick up instructors. Was also told in Shijiazhuang, that if no one in Baotou picked us up, BPIAA would refund our travel expenses. Reality - got to Hohhot, spent over 200 RMB for taxi/bus expenses, was personally refused reimbursement by Mr. Yu in Baotou.
5) During company business again, failure on foreign and Chinese management communication, I was stranded in Baotou with no hotel accommodation. I was forced to stay in 1-star hotel near airport and provide my own transportation with NO REIMBURSEMENT, thanks to cheap Mr. Yu in Baotou (BTW one of the only few Chinese managers who actually own a car... his pocket got pretty bigger by the 300RMB he saved putting me in a crap hotel for 3 nights). Oh yeah needless to say, there were no restaurants catering to foreigners, so I had to spend additional money for taxi to the other side of town where the English speaking waitresses worked.
6) Was told several times, while based in Baotou, that I was to remain in Baotou. Was given 16 hours notice to pack all my belongings and go to Wuhai the next morning. Students were given less time than that.
7) While in Wuhai, was ferrying aircraft for 100-hour inspection to Baotou. Aircraft needed oil. After needing to yell at maintenance for 2 quarts of oil, I found out after returning back to Wuhai that the mechanic only gave me 1/2 quart oil. Need I remind you, Wuhai-Baotou is 100% desert. I guess saving oil saves company money, nevermind if the engine (which is poorly maintained) fails and the aircraft crashes in the desert.
8) Was denied clearance for ridiculous 15KM separation between IFR/VFR traffic in Wuhai and limited to confined area of a training area.. was instructed and ordered to remain no higher than 50 meters above variable height terrain, over the desert, during an IFR arrival on a visual approach. Apparently, any higher than 50 meters AGL is a threat to a 737 doing an approach to an airport when you are 25NM from the airport. I'd hate to see them panic when Chinese people are flying their kites 200 meters high.
9) Requested to be shown aircraft records to demonstrate to students how to ensure an aircraft is airworthy. Found out records are kept in Shijiazhuang (rather than on file with the base the aircraft is parked at).
BTW, Zorro, Howard is from Houston.. the Alamo is in San Antonio.. 212 miles apart...
So, did I run? Damn right. After Robin had a serious power loss in 9135 (the aircraft which had multiple prop-strikes in Baotou) after take off in Wuhai and maintenance just looked at it for a few days.. made me realize that untrained mechanics, no matter how many unrelated engine-runs they do on the ground, or how many mechanics it takes to replace a landing light (no pun intended - it seriously takes about 4), or seeing them run an engine for 20 minutes for a AHRS failure (which has nothing to do with AHRS!!!!) made me realize that all of China, has much to learn about aviation... nevermind the fact that there is a "bicycle manager" in Handan and even a guy hired to turn the damn FTD on and off (his 1 and only job)
I've witnessed what words can't describe. Inefficient, unsafe, impractical, unairworthy, uneducated, untrained, corrupt, unappreciative, unwilling, inappropriate, dysfunctional, inexperienced, and the list goes on and on........
So, in the interest in my life... I'll gladly leave any company which comprises my safety.
1) Wants foreign help, but won't actually admit it. They'll invite you in, but when they give you a test that was originally in English.. then translated to Chinese, then retranslated to pre-kindergarden english.. and expect you to pass it.. I gave up hope.
2) Invites me, yes me.. to meet with CAAC test officials in Beijing, along with a foreign English speaking Hong Kong citizen who is also FAA pilot to correct all questions as originally planned over a period of 4 days, was cut short to just 150 questions in 1 day. 4 months later, none of the 150 questions fixed had been circulated in the test bank.
3) BPIAA President Jack Li assured the instructors who have been trying to pass the test "had passed" by negotiating with CAAC to change their asinine 80% passing score. Of course this was a lie. He said it was a done deal, but fell through (most likely due to insufficient funds on the bribery-wallet). So instead, it was for us all to take the un-edited, Australian-CASA ATP written exam, since CAAC uses their exam for CAAC ATP exams. Wrong.. that was never approved either.
4) During company trips between Shijiazhuang - Hohhot on company business, by company paid airfare.. was told Baotou would send bus to pick up instructors. Was also told in Shijiazhuang, that if no one in Baotou picked us up, BPIAA would refund our travel expenses. Reality - got to Hohhot, spent over 200 RMB for taxi/bus expenses, was personally refused reimbursement by Mr. Yu in Baotou.
5) During company business again, failure on foreign and Chinese management communication, I was stranded in Baotou with no hotel accommodation. I was forced to stay in 1-star hotel near airport and provide my own transportation with NO REIMBURSEMENT, thanks to cheap Mr. Yu in Baotou (BTW one of the only few Chinese managers who actually own a car... his pocket got pretty bigger by the 300RMB he saved putting me in a crap hotel for 3 nights). Oh yeah needless to say, there were no restaurants catering to foreigners, so I had to spend additional money for taxi to the other side of town where the English speaking waitresses worked.
6) Was told several times, while based in Baotou, that I was to remain in Baotou. Was given 16 hours notice to pack all my belongings and go to Wuhai the next morning. Students were given less time than that.
7) While in Wuhai, was ferrying aircraft for 100-hour inspection to Baotou. Aircraft needed oil. After needing to yell at maintenance for 2 quarts of oil, I found out after returning back to Wuhai that the mechanic only gave me 1/2 quart oil. Need I remind you, Wuhai-Baotou is 100% desert. I guess saving oil saves company money, nevermind if the engine (which is poorly maintained) fails and the aircraft crashes in the desert.
8) Was denied clearance for ridiculous 15KM separation between IFR/VFR traffic in Wuhai and limited to confined area of a training area.. was instructed and ordered to remain no higher than 50 meters above variable height terrain, over the desert, during an IFR arrival on a visual approach. Apparently, any higher than 50 meters AGL is a threat to a 737 doing an approach to an airport when you are 25NM from the airport. I'd hate to see them panic when Chinese people are flying their kites 200 meters high.
9) Requested to be shown aircraft records to demonstrate to students how to ensure an aircraft is airworthy. Found out records are kept in Shijiazhuang (rather than on file with the base the aircraft is parked at).
BTW, Zorro, Howard is from Houston.. the Alamo is in San Antonio.. 212 miles apart...
So, did I run? Damn right. After Robin had a serious power loss in 9135 (the aircraft which had multiple prop-strikes in Baotou) after take off in Wuhai and maintenance just looked at it for a few days.. made me realize that untrained mechanics, no matter how many unrelated engine-runs they do on the ground, or how many mechanics it takes to replace a landing light (no pun intended - it seriously takes about 4), or seeing them run an engine for 20 minutes for a AHRS failure (which has nothing to do with AHRS!!!!) made me realize that all of China, has much to learn about aviation... nevermind the fact that there is a "bicycle manager" in Handan and even a guy hired to turn the damn FTD on and off (his 1 and only job)
I've witnessed what words can't describe. Inefficient, unsafe, impractical, unairworthy, uneducated, untrained, corrupt, unappreciative, unwilling, inappropriate, dysfunctional, inexperienced, and the list goes on and on........
So, in the interest in my life... I'll gladly leave any company which comprises my safety.
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hey Zorro,
Are you one of those who signed the formal letter and than is now backing down from the initial demands leaving his colleagues and fellow pilots behind, only because Chinese management threatened not to recommend to the airline?
Well, listen to this: Mr. Jack Li in person told me on October 2005 (and I quote): "don't worry, finish your contract and I'll personally recommend you to Hainan Ailines". Of course it never happened, what a load of rubbish!
So, you can believe the same lies, kiss his *** and back down from the demands, but than you really need to aim for an airline in China, because you'll never be employable anywhere else in the world.
Who wants to fly with a pilot who leaves their fellow pilots behind? Believe me, aviation is a small world, too small to lose the trust of the professional pilot community
Are you one of those who signed the formal letter and than is now backing down from the initial demands leaving his colleagues and fellow pilots behind, only because Chinese management threatened not to recommend to the airline?
Well, listen to this: Mr. Jack Li in person told me on October 2005 (and I quote): "don't worry, finish your contract and I'll personally recommend you to Hainan Ailines". Of course it never happened, what a load of rubbish!
So, you can believe the same lies, kiss his *** and back down from the demands, but than you really need to aim for an airline in China, because you'll never be employable anywhere else in the world.
Who wants to fly with a pilot who leaves their fellow pilots behind? Believe me, aviation is a small world, too small to lose the trust of the professional pilot community
Last edited by spacepodlife; 7th Oct 2007 at 14:39.
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Word travels fast
As a former employee of BPIAA, I keep in contact with a few select friends that are unfortunately still there. One sent me a copy of an email sent out by your representative.
I think all of you 2nd or 3rd year instructors better educate "General Houston" on Mr. Li's tactics. I can't believe you are actually going to sit though another dog and pony show with that man.
I'm now an outsider, but with friends still there. Director Li (not Jack) told me to my face on 2 different occasions that his only concern was to find investment money. So look at what is happening right now under your nose, and your representative can't see it. Isn't BPIAA trying to get investment from Singapore? Do you think they would drop a dime into that place if they knew what was going on? This meeting is a tactic to stall the inevitable. Ask the old-timers still there.
And how can he say to Jack Li, in his email to Jack, that the instructors felt that he was not aware of all the problems at BPIAA. Jack Li IS the problem at BPIAA.
I think all of your intentions are honorable, and I agree with spacepod that you should all stick together on this. But on the other hand, I think all of you just signed your own Death Warrant and sealed your fate when you submitted that document. You have chinese instructors waiting to take over. Don't think for a second that the managers don't know that. Li will pacify your representative, take the Singapore money, and forget you or your problems even exist. The best thing everyone can do, and I say this will all sincerity, is just get out of there.
Oh, and Mr. Zorro, please do us all a favor and find some other topic. It's been in every BPIAA thread posted on here. We all know Howard's the hero of the Alamo, and still is, in most of our minds.
Pat, if you're reading this, give us your thoughts.
Blue Skies
I think all of you 2nd or 3rd year instructors better educate "General Houston" on Mr. Li's tactics. I can't believe you are actually going to sit though another dog and pony show with that man.
I'm now an outsider, but with friends still there. Director Li (not Jack) told me to my face on 2 different occasions that his only concern was to find investment money. So look at what is happening right now under your nose, and your representative can't see it. Isn't BPIAA trying to get investment from Singapore? Do you think they would drop a dime into that place if they knew what was going on? This meeting is a tactic to stall the inevitable. Ask the old-timers still there.
And how can he say to Jack Li, in his email to Jack, that the instructors felt that he was not aware of all the problems at BPIAA. Jack Li IS the problem at BPIAA.
I think all of your intentions are honorable, and I agree with spacepod that you should all stick together on this. But on the other hand, I think all of you just signed your own Death Warrant and sealed your fate when you submitted that document. You have chinese instructors waiting to take over. Don't think for a second that the managers don't know that. Li will pacify your representative, take the Singapore money, and forget you or your problems even exist. The best thing everyone can do, and I say this will all sincerity, is just get out of there.
Oh, and Mr. Zorro, please do us all a favor and find some other topic. It's been in every BPIAA thread posted on here. We all know Howard's the hero of the Alamo, and still is, in most of our minds.
Pat, if you're reading this, give us your thoughts.
Blue Skies
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Don't retreat !!!
Damn guys ,don't retreat now .
If you'll do it again the Chinese managers will trample you like a bug .
All the guys before you tried their best to fight this corruption and just the greedy manipulators betrayed !
It's all depends on you guys ,CLOSE PAN SCAM !!!
Keep it real and don't let it go wrong (like we did)
Peace
If you'll do it again the Chinese managers will trample you like a bug .
All the guys before you tried their best to fight this corruption and just the greedy manipulators betrayed !
It's all depends on you guys ,CLOSE PAN SCAM !!!
Keep it real and don't let it go wrong (like we did)
Peace
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to run or not to run?
haha
i see our lone ranger is still quick to draw his gun and shoot first anything that moves and ask questions later, and he still has got faithful followers
remember when he was walking around the school in jeans and bandana?
playing the guitar at the oujing hotel's reception desk
my heart melted that day ...
i am not working in panam anymore, i have left one year ago
i did not even know about the letter the baotou instructors sent to the chinese leaders
everything has been done to try and improve this place, and only the foreigners have actually tried something
go on strike? the frenchies who used to fly the king air have done it
write letters?
done
organise safety meetings?
done
we were promised discount vouchers at the oujing green restaurant ...
by now the whole world knows this is the worst flying school ever
i am so happy i left the place when i did
it's no use trying to improve panam
just leave, or even better: dont go there
the following names are fictious:
the manager of maintenance mister Mu, is incompetent, and so scared to lose his status of vice president ...
mister Gong, baotou base manager is so ambitious, he makes Don and Dustin look like choirboys...
even mister Bing has left panam
the dispatchers are hopeless they cant tell the difference between a taf and a metar
the mechanics could not even build a meccano game...
hahahahahahahahahaha
i see our lone ranger is still quick to draw his gun and shoot first anything that moves and ask questions later, and he still has got faithful followers
remember when he was walking around the school in jeans and bandana?
playing the guitar at the oujing hotel's reception desk
my heart melted that day ...
i am not working in panam anymore, i have left one year ago
i did not even know about the letter the baotou instructors sent to the chinese leaders
everything has been done to try and improve this place, and only the foreigners have actually tried something
go on strike? the frenchies who used to fly the king air have done it
write letters?
done
organise safety meetings?
done
we were promised discount vouchers at the oujing green restaurant ...
by now the whole world knows this is the worst flying school ever
i am so happy i left the place when i did
it's no use trying to improve panam
just leave, or even better: dont go there
the following names are fictious:
the manager of maintenance mister Mu, is incompetent, and so scared to lose his status of vice president ...
mister Gong, baotou base manager is so ambitious, he makes Don and Dustin look like choirboys...
even mister Bing has left panam
the dispatchers are hopeless they cant tell the difference between a taf and a metar
the mechanics could not even build a meccano game...
hahahahahahahahahaha
Last edited by flyingzorro; 10th Oct 2007 at 11:38.
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Well when you look at their positions, you can't compare those with foreign positions with the same title.
You should know by now, a position in China with a title is just a title.. not a responsibility or any substitute for training from that of a western-cultured or aviation developed country.
For example, ...
-Dispatchers in the US Flight schools keep track of aircraft, instructor, and student movement around their assigned bases, and more. Dispatchers in China can't keep track of what aircraft is where, what instructor is at what base, and like you said, can't read a TAF or METAR (neither can most of the students).
-Mechanics in the US are FAA certified Aircraft and Powerplant (or one without the other) mechanics and went to school for their specialized training, as well as additional (optional) training for engine/airframe/avionics specific service. Mechanics in China are either ex-military or local 2-stroke motorcycle repair men with no training other than "on the job" done by poorly trained men who wear the title of "mechanic."
-Weather in the US is freely and easily accessible for efficient training, preparation, and flight planning. Weather in China is highly restricted and hidden from foreign pilots.
-Student services in the US keeps track of students progress, student finances, student relations (housing, bills, etc), and works with other departments. Student services in China will override any decision of any foreign management so that the student can continue with their certification process, even when the flight instructor does not endorse (for good reasons too) the student for stage checks, check rides, and written exams.
-Flight Standards department is overseen by the Chief Flight Instructor in the US, enforcing company policy, safety, and operation standards among all flight instructors regardless of assigned base. In addition, FS has support from it's highly-experienced management and leaders. Flight Standards in China is undeveloped and unmaintainable. Any changes to standards is not enforced, not trained, not communicated, and not supported by management.
-Management in the US is done by highly-experienced leaders who have more than several years (most likely decades) of experience in flight schools, flight training, maintenance, executives, or any combination of those plus more. Leaders know regulations, safety protocols, communication standards, and good-people skills. Chinese managers are inexperienced individuals who seek nothing but larger pockets, careless and thoughtless, cares nothing about the product nor the service.. seek investors while fading away from the company goals that they themselves laid out when the school was first opened. They also change policy without notice to any other department, and do not realize problems do not go away on their own, or by drinking a few bottles of baijiu, or by creating more problems to make one problem go away does not work. Their biggest downfall is the inability to listen and take advice from people who have much more experience in a particular field (The father/son relationship, where a father tells the son about mistakes he made while he was a boy so that the son doesn't have to repeat the fathers mistakes comes to mind).
You should know by now, a position in China with a title is just a title.. not a responsibility or any substitute for training from that of a western-cultured or aviation developed country.
For example, ...
-Dispatchers in the US Flight schools keep track of aircraft, instructor, and student movement around their assigned bases, and more. Dispatchers in China can't keep track of what aircraft is where, what instructor is at what base, and like you said, can't read a TAF or METAR (neither can most of the students).
-Mechanics in the US are FAA certified Aircraft and Powerplant (or one without the other) mechanics and went to school for their specialized training, as well as additional (optional) training for engine/airframe/avionics specific service. Mechanics in China are either ex-military or local 2-stroke motorcycle repair men with no training other than "on the job" done by poorly trained men who wear the title of "mechanic."
-Weather in the US is freely and easily accessible for efficient training, preparation, and flight planning. Weather in China is highly restricted and hidden from foreign pilots.
-Student services in the US keeps track of students progress, student finances, student relations (housing, bills, etc), and works with other departments. Student services in China will override any decision of any foreign management so that the student can continue with their certification process, even when the flight instructor does not endorse (for good reasons too) the student for stage checks, check rides, and written exams.
-Flight Standards department is overseen by the Chief Flight Instructor in the US, enforcing company policy, safety, and operation standards among all flight instructors regardless of assigned base. In addition, FS has support from it's highly-experienced management and leaders. Flight Standards in China is undeveloped and unmaintainable. Any changes to standards is not enforced, not trained, not communicated, and not supported by management.
-Management in the US is done by highly-experienced leaders who have more than several years (most likely decades) of experience in flight schools, flight training, maintenance, executives, or any combination of those plus more. Leaders know regulations, safety protocols, communication standards, and good-people skills. Chinese managers are inexperienced individuals who seek nothing but larger pockets, careless and thoughtless, cares nothing about the product nor the service.. seek investors while fading away from the company goals that they themselves laid out when the school was first opened. They also change policy without notice to any other department, and do not realize problems do not go away on their own, or by drinking a few bottles of baijiu, or by creating more problems to make one problem go away does not work. Their biggest downfall is the inability to listen and take advice from people who have much more experience in a particular field (The father/son relationship, where a father tells the son about mistakes he made while he was a boy so that the son doesn't have to repeat the fathers mistakes comes to mind).
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Amazing!
a potential job action at panam?!? thats amazing!?!
ive read the 19 demands and nothing seems to be beyond reason (to westerners of course) im sure chinese management will be more than happy to accomodate you
i would recommend however that you replace the "unions" front man. ive never met DB, im sure hes a great guy, but i think that Brce Bg would lay down the hammer like nobody else!! provided you can pull him away from his digging game!
ive read the 19 demands and nothing seems to be beyond reason (to westerners of course) im sure chinese management will be more than happy to accomodate you
i would recommend however that you replace the "unions" front man. ive never met DB, im sure hes a great guy, but i think that Br
ce Bg would lay down the hammer like nobody else!! provided you can pull him away from his digging game!
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Nick
Your point is... PanAm sucks ? 
I am soooo happy to be out of the PanAm shthole... I drunk a couple beers on this fact, and i didn't even bother the headache the day after
I am soooo happy to be out of the PanAm sh
thole... I drunk a couple beers on this fact, and i didn't even bother the headache the day after
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Aviation for dummies...
This thread gets more and more interesting...
Does somebody know any of the 19 things the instructors at Baotou asked for?
I'm also an ex Pan Pan instructor who is sooooo happy to be somewhere else flying safely.
As all of you mates are explaining here, Pan Pan is a senseless joke from head to toe. But you know what's funnier... trying to change it or, what's even worse, trying from the outside to encourage the poor guys who are still there to put their heads between a stomp and an axe.
Anyone who tried to change anything at Pan Pan failed miserably (and I include myself). The Chinese management will never accept any of your demands guys... they are so haughty they'll retain your pay checks, ground you or even fire you, before admitting they are wrong and paying attention to a subordinate's advice. THEY WON'T LOSE FACE. No matter how wrong they are or how dangerous the consequences of their actions are...
Let's face reality. People left there are just trying to get a living while waiting for a better job. Asking them to fight for something they'll never achieve, and get the sack (like my friend who started this thread) is plain retarded.
I would say the majority of us cared about the quality of the instruction given there initially... until we realized what was going on!. Nobody cares anymore because it's not up to them (and it's never been)
Anyone who knows me also knows I tried to fight some issues there and, like I said before, failed miserably...
As a good friend of mine (who also left) said once: "I don't want my finger prints on that train wreck".
China is not ready for aviation and won't be in some decades.
Chinese culture is not compatible with pilot training (they rather train brainless machines)
Anyway, I wish the best to all the good guys left there.
I don't know who said so, but... Mr. Ding never left, he was fired.
Take care,
The dirty Spaniard.
P.S.: Russ, my man, get the hell outta there. Don't bother finishing contracts they use to wipe their dirty and smelly asses.
Does somebody know any of the 19 things the instructors at Baotou asked for?
I'm also an ex Pan Pan instructor who is sooooo happy to be somewhere else flying safely.
As all of you mates are explaining here, Pan Pan is a senseless joke from head to toe. But you know what's funnier... trying to change it or, what's even worse, trying from the outside to encourage the poor guys who are still there to put their heads between a stomp and an axe.
Anyone who tried to change anything at Pan Pan failed miserably (and I include myself). The Chinese management will never accept any of your demands guys... they are so haughty they'll retain your pay checks, ground you or even fire you, before admitting they are wrong and paying attention to a subordinate's advice. THEY WON'T LOSE FACE. No matter how wrong they are or how dangerous the consequences of their actions are...
Let's face reality. People left there are just trying to get a living while waiting for a better job. Asking them to fight for something they'll never achieve, and get the sack (like my friend who started this thread) is plain retarded.
I would say the majority of us cared about the quality of the instruction given there initially... until we realized what was going on!. Nobody cares anymore because it's not up to them (and it's never been)
Anyone who knows me also knows I tried to fight some issues there and, like I said before, failed miserably...
As a good friend of mine (who also left) said once: "I don't want my finger prints on that train wreck".
China is not ready for aviation and won't be in some decades.
Chinese culture is not compatible with pilot training (they rather train brainless machines)
Anyway, I wish the best to all the good guys left there.
I don't know who said so, but... Mr. Ding never left, he was fired.
Take care,
The dirty Spaniard.
P.S.: Russ, my man, get the hell outta there. Don't bother finishing contracts they use to wipe their dirty and smelly asses.
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what panam really needs is a meeting with "the Bob's"!
all jokes aside though, i really hope something good comes from this job action.
but, if nothing happens, just leave! the industry is going crazy right now. people are getting turbine jobs with 200tt!!!!
a far cry from when the ink was still wet on my liscence 5 years ago! 5000tt for right seat on a navajo!
but, if nothing happens, just leave! the industry is going crazy right now. people are getting turbine jobs with 200tt!!!!
a far cry from when the ink was still wet on my liscence 5 years ago! 5000tt for right seat on a navajo!
Last edited by spacemanspiff8; 9th Oct 2007 at 18:43.
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Intresting Article
For anyone interested in something other than my guitar playing, here is an excerpt from an article I found online. I guess this comes "straight from the horses mouth."
After reading this, we may all understand the losing battle to foster and promote general aviation in China, especially as a foreigner from a free country.
Reading these comments from Minster Yang should be a warning sign to all. As stated in several previous postings, China is a long way from building the infrastructure needed to support flight training and general aviation as we know it. And now you're hearing it from the Minister himself.
Food for thought, anyway.
Enjoy:
"China has very good potential" for business jets, said Yang Guoqing, deputy director general of China's counterpart to America's Federal Aviation Administration, in a meeting with Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius in October.
But Yang avoided discussing China's key regulatory issue --opening its skies to small-plane traffic -- in his meeting with the governor.
For decades, Chinese airspace has been controlled by the People's Liberation Army, which gives military routes priority over other aircraft. The Chinese military tends to resist challenges to its power.
Beyond that, smaller aircraft would further tax an already burdened aviation infrastructure. China has far fewer airports than the United States. Small aircraft also require air traffic controllers and other support to fly safely and efficiently.
Some officials predict relaxed regulation by the 2008 Olympics in Beijing, but others view that skeptically.
"There isn't the infrastructure," said Wu Song, who advises the Chinese government on aviation policy.
Another barrier is Chinese culture itself. For decades, officials and businessmen have flown on airliners, and many see no reason to change. Personal aircraft are still seen as distasteful displays of wealth by much of the public.
After reading this, we may all understand the losing battle to foster and promote general aviation in China, especially as a foreigner from a free country.
Reading these comments from Minster Yang should be a warning sign to all. As stated in several previous postings, China is a long way from building the infrastructure needed to support flight training and general aviation as we know it. And now you're hearing it from the Minister himself.
Food for thought, anyway.
Enjoy:
"China has very good potential" for business jets, said Yang Guoqing, deputy director general of China's counterpart to America's Federal Aviation Administration, in a meeting with Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius in October.
But Yang avoided discussing China's key regulatory issue --opening its skies to small-plane traffic -- in his meeting with the governor.
For decades, Chinese airspace has been controlled by the People's Liberation Army, which gives military routes priority over other aircraft. The Chinese military tends to resist challenges to its power.
Beyond that, smaller aircraft would further tax an already burdened aviation infrastructure. China has far fewer airports than the United States. Small aircraft also require air traffic controllers and other support to fly safely and efficiently.
Some officials predict relaxed regulation by the 2008 Olympics in Beijing, but others view that skeptically.
"There isn't the infrastructure," said Wu Song, who advises the Chinese government on aviation policy.
Another barrier is Chinese culture itself. For decades, officials and businessmen have flown on airliners, and many see no reason to change. Personal aircraft are still seen as distasteful displays of wealth by much of the public.
Last edited by EX-FED; 10th Oct 2007 at 08:42. Reason: Additional Comments
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wow
first of all i am so surprised that my rather crazy post gave such intersting replies.
i do not bear any grudge to any foreigner who has been or who is currently working at panam
i just feel so sorry to see how things are going since i have left
like all the others i really thought this place and this country had great potential for aviation and i actually felt proud to be part of it
while i was there i worked and worked with only the students and the school in mind, without worring about politics
after some time though i have realized that this place is ONLY about politics, because if you want to get anything done you are just banging your head against a wall of misunderstanding and at times even suspicion
i am glad to see that the panam debate is getting more to the point, which is aviation training, general aviation and commercial aviation in china
as long as the people there dont understand that the we the foreigners are here to HELP and share our knowledge and experience to make the chinese skies a better place, well... it will remained restricted, undeveloped and dangerous ...
i do not bear any grudge to any foreigner who has been or who is currently working at panam
i just feel so sorry to see how things are going since i have left
like all the others i really thought this place and this country had great potential for aviation and i actually felt proud to be part of it
while i was there i worked and worked with only the students and the school in mind, without worring about politics
after some time though i have realized that this place is ONLY about politics, because if you want to get anything done you are just banging your head against a wall of misunderstanding and at times even suspicion
i am glad to see that the panam debate is getting more to the point, which is aviation training, general aviation and commercial aviation in china
as long as the people there dont understand that the we the foreigners are here to HELP and share our knowledge and experience to make the chinese skies a better place, well... it will remained restricted, undeveloped and dangerous ...
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In Theory
I just received a confirmed report that the BPIAA management has agreed to all 19 demands issued by the flight instructors at the Bautou base.
Understand that this agreement is in theory only and should be monitored closely with definitive deadlines for implementation. We've seen this sort of activity before - (refer to my previous post).
CONGRATULATIONS GUYS, but sleep with one eye open!
Blue Skies
Understand that this agreement is in theory only and should be monitored closely with definitive deadlines for implementation. We've seen this sort of activity before - (refer to my previous post).
CONGRATULATIONS GUYS, but sleep with one eye open!
Blue Skies
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Here were the 19 items:
1: Pan Am will publish, in English and Chinese, a Search and Rescue Plan for each base.
2. Each flying aircraft will be equipped with a survival kit. See Flight Standards for a complete list of its contents.
3. All flying aircraft, students and instructors will be equipped with VFR navigational charts. If the Navigational Affairs Department still lacks the ability to provide this essential piece of equipment, Flight Standards will be given all needed resources to accomplish this.
4. Each aircraft in Pan Am’s fleet will be equipped with a seat cushion to aid student visibility
5. Pan Am’s ATC employees are subject to further training and observation at the direction of the Chief Pilot, Assistant Chief CFI or Standards Department.
6. No student will be allowed to skip Stage Checks to take a CAAC Flight Test unless it has been approved by the Flight Standards Department or Chief Flight Instructor.
7. Any decision by Pan Am Dispatch can be overruled immediately by the Chief Flight Instructor, Assistant Chief CFI, or the highest ranking flight instructor present. This policy will be published and clearly worded for all employees.8. Dispatch will acquire and display ALL current and available weather information.
9. Under no circumstances will an instructor ever be suspended without pay.
10. The only employees with the power to ground an instructor are the Chief Flight Instructor, Assistant Chief Flight Instructors, or the Flight Standards Manager. If an instructor is to be grounded it must be approved by one of the above and may always be overruled by the Chief Flight Instructor.
11. The cafeteria at Baotou base will be open, and making hot food, for longer hours.
12. Pan Am will always give written explanation of the location, return date and reason for needing instructor passports.
13. Pan Am will never keep passports for longer then one month without specific justification and DAILY written notice of the passport’s location and status.14. Pan Am will deliver Temporary Licenses in no less then one month after passing a CAAC practical test or send the instructor to Beijing to investigate personally.15. Pan Am will deliver Permanent Licenses in no less then two months after passing a CAAC practical test or send the instructor to Beijing to investigate personally.
16. Pan Am will never withhold a Permanent License or Medical Documents from an instructor under any circumstances.
17. Pan Am will return all original medical documents to Instructors immediately.
18. Pan Am will return all Foreign Expert Certificates to Instructors immediately.
19. Pan Am will clarify in writing the legal working status of all Instructors working in Baotou, Wuhai and Handan with the Foreign Expert Certificates issued from the Beijing Office.
1: Pan Am will publish, in English and Chinese, a Search and Rescue Plan for each base.
2. Each flying aircraft will be equipped with a survival kit. See Flight Standards for a complete list of its contents.
3. All flying aircraft, students and instructors will be equipped with VFR navigational charts. If the Navigational Affairs Department still lacks the ability to provide this essential piece of equipment, Flight Standards will be given all needed resources to accomplish this.
4. Each aircraft in Pan Am’s fleet will be equipped with a seat cushion to aid student visibility
5. Pan Am’s ATC employees are subject to further training and observation at the direction of the Chief Pilot, Assistant Chief CFI or Standards Department.
6. No student will be allowed to skip Stage Checks to take a CAAC Flight Test unless it has been approved by the Flight Standards Department or Chief Flight Instructor.
7. Any decision by Pan Am Dispatch can be overruled immediately by the Chief Flight Instructor, Assistant Chief CFI, or the highest ranking flight instructor present. This policy will be published and clearly worded for all employees.8. Dispatch will acquire and display ALL current and available weather information.
9. Under no circumstances will an instructor ever be suspended without pay.
10. The only employees with the power to ground an instructor are the Chief Flight Instructor, Assistant Chief Flight Instructors, or the Flight Standards Manager. If an instructor is to be grounded it must be approved by one of the above and may always be overruled by the Chief Flight Instructor.
11. The cafeteria at Baotou base will be open, and making hot food, for longer hours.
12. Pan Am will always give written explanation of the location, return date and reason for needing instructor passports.
13. Pan Am will never keep passports for longer then one month without specific justification and DAILY written notice of the passport’s location and status.14. Pan Am will deliver Temporary Licenses in no less then one month after passing a CAAC practical test or send the instructor to Beijing to investigate personally.15. Pan Am will deliver Permanent Licenses in no less then two months after passing a CAAC practical test or send the instructor to Beijing to investigate personally.
16. Pan Am will never withhold a Permanent License or Medical Documents from an instructor under any circumstances.
17. Pan Am will return all original medical documents to Instructors immediately.
18. Pan Am will return all Foreign Expert Certificates to Instructors immediately.
19. Pan Am will clarify in writing the legal working status of all Instructors working in Baotou, Wuhai and Handan with the Foreign Expert Certificates issued from the Beijing Office.
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Does anyone still believe Pan Pan?!?!
This company has agreed to do things so many times... and yet done nothing or just done it for a couple of weeks (or even days)
1.- That will be: a) Never published, or b) Be a joke.
2.- Will be doe for sure. We all know Pan Pan was never about money...
3.- The truth is... there are no charts!!. Are you going to tell me you are going to get those kids to fly visual??? hahaha...
4.- Another thing that will be solved with money. This is negligible talking about real problems the company faces.
5.- No comments...
6.- Unless his daddy or uncle is someone with big money...
7.- Who's banging one of the dispatchers.... let me guess... you'll do what she says.
8.- Then half pay will do... and I know what I'm talking about.
Summarizing all the ones talking about documents: That should have never been allowed. Nobody fought that when they should, and it's not that I'm trying to get any medal here, but I was the ONLY ONE who refused to give his foreign expert's certificate in. EX-FED knows what I'm talking about very well, as this was discussed between him, Jessica and myself in his office. I was basically told that being the only one who didn't follow the instructions, I was by no means going to be paid until I gave it in...
You all know who's to blame for all the problems with licenses and passports. Don't ask him to be effective, as he'll never be; just ask for his head and get fing T W outta there!!.
It's good to see everybody got together and demanded what's right and I really hope you get all you asked for, but being realistic: I would not count on getting half of those demands taken to practice.
Thanks for that Nick
Take care and good luck!
1.- That will be: a) Never published, or b) Be a joke.
2.- Will be doe for sure. We all know Pan Pan was never about money...
3.- The truth is... there are no charts!!. Are you going to tell me you are going to get those kids to fly visual??? hahaha...
4.- Another thing that will be solved with money. This is negligible talking about real problems the company faces.
5.- No comments...
6.- Unless his daddy or uncle is someone with big money...
7.- Who's banging one of the dispatchers.... let me guess... you'll do what she says.
8.- Then half pay will do... and I know what I'm talking about.
Summarizing all the ones talking about documents: That should have never been allowed. Nobody fought that when they should, and it's not that I'm trying to get any medal here, but I was the ONLY ONE who refused to give his foreign expert's certificate in. EX-FED knows what I'm talking about very well, as this was discussed between him, Jessica and myself in his office. I was basically told that being the only one who didn't follow the instructions, I was by no means going to be paid until I gave it in...
You all know who's to blame for all the problems with licenses and passports. Don't ask him to be effective, as he'll never be; just ask for his head and get f
ing T W outta there!!.It's good to see everybody got together and demanded what's right and I really hope you get all you asked for, but being realistic: I would not count on getting half of those demands taken to practice.
Thanks for that Nick
Take care and good luck!
Last edited by Harcipotter; 11th Oct 2007 at 06:34.
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Skeptical
I am in total agreement with Newbie, Potter, and yes; even you, Zorro! (good last post, by the way).
I really hope General Sam has won this battle, but the war is far from over. Even if the internal conflicts and safety issues are resolved, there are still the external issues that are going to suffocate the flight training.
As Newbie stated, I've sat through these "dog and pony" shows several times and heard the same promises over, and over, and over again. We all did. Monitor the progress daily!!
Regardless, my hat's off to DB and his crew in Bautou.
Howard
I really hope General Sam has won this battle, but the war is far from over. Even if the internal conflicts and safety issues are resolved, there are still the external issues that are going to suffocate the flight training.
As Newbie stated, I've sat through these "dog and pony" shows several times and heard the same promises over, and over, and over again. We all did. Monitor the progress daily!!
Regardless, my hat's off to DB and his crew in Bautou.
Howard