SIA Cargo: Divorced and Improved??
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SIA Cargo: Divorced and Improved??
Over the past 3-4 months, I have heard the following comment made by fellow expat captains to make me actually take notice: "things really have gotten better" since we have separated from mainline. I should have asked then and there what they think has gotten better but didn't. So I am asking now?
There have been some changes for sure since SIAC has started to go it alone, but I am not really sure that all are for the better. Let's see, a quick calculation of my average monthly hours 6/06-12/06 was 44 and from 1/07-6/07 42. So no real change there. COP disruptions about the same.
On the plus side, standby duty on layovers has gone away and the office is very accomodating to requests to leave slip stations. Communication from the office has leapt by leaps and bounds, even if what we are hearing may not be to our liking. At least we are hearing something. There has been a lot of communication from both management and the pilot scheduling committee about new "soft scheduling rules". All well intentioned and I really do appreciate the hard work of these fellow pilots. However, I as the end user have seen my COP quality decrease. How? More minimum rest layovers, more double sector duty days. The concept of getting rest with an added captain looks good on paper but the actuality is we are working harder and longer and I am more tired on average than I was before.
Added to the stress level of the fatigue factor induced by the back to back short rest layovers and back side of the clock flying etc... is the added stress of flying now with absolutely green FOs. Now that we are separate from mainline, we don't get the same level of experience in the right seat as we used to with the mainline first officers. My last three COPs were with FOs who had just completed line training with maybe 300-400 hours total in their log books. Never been to any of the stations on the COP etc...Reminds me of my military single seat pilot days. I'm basically on my own.
Would be interested to hear how others feel. Am I missing some of these improvements? Oh, almost forgot. The huge profit sharing check just deposited last week. Somehow doesn't make me any less tired or my job any easier. But airline managements the world over know that pilots are basically all whores. Give us enough spending money and we will overlook the quality of life/quality of work issues.
PQ
There have been some changes for sure since SIAC has started to go it alone, but I am not really sure that all are for the better. Let's see, a quick calculation of my average monthly hours 6/06-12/06 was 44 and from 1/07-6/07 42. So no real change there. COP disruptions about the same.
On the plus side, standby duty on layovers has gone away and the office is very accomodating to requests to leave slip stations. Communication from the office has leapt by leaps and bounds, even if what we are hearing may not be to our liking. At least we are hearing something. There has been a lot of communication from both management and the pilot scheduling committee about new "soft scheduling rules". All well intentioned and I really do appreciate the hard work of these fellow pilots. However, I as the end user have seen my COP quality decrease. How? More minimum rest layovers, more double sector duty days. The concept of getting rest with an added captain looks good on paper but the actuality is we are working harder and longer and I am more tired on average than I was before.
Added to the stress level of the fatigue factor induced by the back to back short rest layovers and back side of the clock flying etc... is the added stress of flying now with absolutely green FOs. Now that we are separate from mainline, we don't get the same level of experience in the right seat as we used to with the mainline first officers. My last three COPs were with FOs who had just completed line training with maybe 300-400 hours total in their log books. Never been to any of the stations on the COP etc...Reminds me of my military single seat pilot days. I'm basically on my own.
Would be interested to hear how others feel. Am I missing some of these improvements? Oh, almost forgot. The huge profit sharing check just deposited last week. Somehow doesn't make me any less tired or my job any easier. But airline managements the world over know that pilots are basically all whores. Give us enough spending money and we will overlook the quality of life/quality of work issues.
PQ
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Fair comment I think PQ.
I have just come back from a 20 day COP and must say that I don't feel as tired as I expected I would. Seventy hours flying in 20 days away, and 12 OFF days now that I am back are quite nice too. I acknowledge that the idea of 20 days away will not suit everyone.
We had 5 multi time zone change, back of the clock, sectors in the first 5 days and, provided you just flew, ate and slept for 5 days, it worked out surprisingly well from a fatigue management viewpoint - and saved me a fortune in bar bills!
Green F/Os I don't mind at all. They are generally keen, have studied hard, keep me on my game by asking questions, and you can't blame them for a lack of experience.
I can live with most of the day to day operation now but I would like to see a significant per diem increase, at least $1000 pcm increase in housing allowance, 42 days Annual Leave and concessionary (free) travel for self + spouse on the freighter.
I have just come back from a 20 day COP and must say that I don't feel as tired as I expected I would. Seventy hours flying in 20 days away, and 12 OFF days now that I am back are quite nice too. I acknowledge that the idea of 20 days away will not suit everyone.
We had 5 multi time zone change, back of the clock, sectors in the first 5 days and, provided you just flew, ate and slept for 5 days, it worked out surprisingly well from a fatigue management viewpoint - and saved me a fortune in bar bills!
Green F/Os I don't mind at all. They are generally keen, have studied hard, keep me on my game by asking questions, and you can't blame them for a lack of experience.
I can live with most of the day to day operation now but I would like to see a significant per diem increase, at least $1000 pcm increase in housing allowance, 42 days Annual Leave and concessionary (free) travel for self + spouse on the freighter.
Last edited by BANANASBANANAS; 8th Jul 2007 at 15:03.
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BB
I am happy to hear that the COP changes have not affected you negatively. Perhaps you have not had the pleasure yet of being DC on the Osaka turnaround followed by min rest in SIN before departing on another two sector day start of a COP.
Yes, the very low experience FOs that we fly with now are not responsible for their lack of experience and the position the company puts them in. The system is and the system is flawed. If safety were paramount to the company, they would crew us with experienced First Officers. And they could easily attract them by a simple change in policy: institute an upgrade program.
Perhaps some enjoy regaling the young eager FO with tales of their vast experience. Perhaps others like imparting flying tips and techniques. I am not trained as an instructor. I don’t want to be an instructor. I am not being paid the S$1000/month override that the instructors get. All I really want is a crewmember sitting to my right that has competent handling skills, air sense and one that will have the experience to recognize when something is not right and most importantly not hesitate to say so.
Not receiving the $7,000/mo PPA as advertised stings even more now.
PQ
I am happy to hear that the COP changes have not affected you negatively. Perhaps you have not had the pleasure yet of being DC on the Osaka turnaround followed by min rest in SIN before departing on another two sector day start of a COP.
Yes, the very low experience FOs that we fly with now are not responsible for their lack of experience and the position the company puts them in. The system is and the system is flawed. If safety were paramount to the company, they would crew us with experienced First Officers. And they could easily attract them by a simple change in policy: institute an upgrade program.
Perhaps some enjoy regaling the young eager FO with tales of their vast experience. Perhaps others like imparting flying tips and techniques. I am not trained as an instructor. I don’t want to be an instructor. I am not being paid the S$1000/month override that the instructors get. All I really want is a crewmember sitting to my right that has competent handling skills, air sense and one that will have the experience to recognize when something is not right and most importantly not hesitate to say so.
Not receiving the $7,000/mo PPA as advertised stings even more now.
PQ
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No KIX Double Crew turnarounds follwed by min rest yet so I can't really comment on that other than to say it doesn't look very nice.
Most of our experienced First Officers are SAS guys and they will start to leave in droves from early 2008 when their contracts are up and there are no command courses for them. I have yet to fly with one that isn't ready for a command course and I think your point is well made.
Green F/Os? - Agreed; it's not our place or obligation to teach any F/O anything - thats for the LIP's - but my last F/O who was fresh out out of training sure taught me a few things.
Most of our experienced First Officers are SAS guys and they will start to leave in droves from early 2008 when their contracts are up and there are no command courses for them. I have yet to fly with one that isn't ready for a command course and I think your point is well made.
Green F/Os? - Agreed; it's not our place or obligation to teach any F/O anything - thats for the LIP's - but my last F/O who was fresh out out of training sure taught me a few things.
Hah.. hard work!!
70 hours in 20 days away 'not feeling tired as you expected'...i'm just back from hkg-lax-hkg-lax-hkg in 7 days with 60 hours....how do you think that feels??...
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Was that rostered or due to delay/disruption? Sounds awful!
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A year ago you couldn't find a positive post about Singapore Cargo due to lack of flying. Now everyone wants to play "I can top that!"
"Be careful what you wish for..." comes to mind.
Or more appropriately, "What kind of cheese would you like with that w(h)ine?"
"Be careful what you wish for..." comes to mind.
Or more appropriately, "What kind of cheese would you like with that w(h)ine?"
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No complaints from me about the increase in flying hours. A few other issues remain to be be addressed but the hours are just fine.
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PQ 67,
ARE YOU SAYING THE F/Os IN SINCARGO ARE INCOMPETENT AND YOU ARE THE ONE MAN PILOT ALL THE WAY.
I SURE WOULD LIKE TO FLY WITH YOU ONE DAY TO SEE HOW GOOD YOU ARE.
TO MY KNOWELEDGE MOST OF THE F/Os HAVE VAST KNOWLEDGE OF THE AIRCRAFT WITH MORE FLYING HOURS ON THE 744 COMPARING TO SOME NON-TYPE RATED DECs AS THESE F/Os HAVE HAD LONGER PERIOD OF TYPE RATING SIM TRAINING,LINE TRAINING(LT1/LT2) AND MORE BASE/LINE CHECKS.
IS NOT FAIR TO BRAND THEM 'GREEN F/O', GRADE THEM INCOMPETENT AND MENTIONED YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN WHEN FLYING WITH THEM.YOU ARE ACTUALLY ACCUSING THE WHOLE SIA TRAINING SYSTEM AND THE CAAS TESTING SYSTEM THAT HAD TRAINED AND TESTED THEM, THE SAME ORGANISATIONS THAT HAD TRAINED YOU AND TESTED YOU.
IF THEY ARE NOT QUALIFIED AND CAPABLE, I DONT THINK YOU ARE.
Easy, Tiger........ he wasn't saying that. Squid
ARE YOU SAYING THE F/Os IN SINCARGO ARE INCOMPETENT AND YOU ARE THE ONE MAN PILOT ALL THE WAY.
I SURE WOULD LIKE TO FLY WITH YOU ONE DAY TO SEE HOW GOOD YOU ARE.
TO MY KNOWELEDGE MOST OF THE F/Os HAVE VAST KNOWLEDGE OF THE AIRCRAFT WITH MORE FLYING HOURS ON THE 744 COMPARING TO SOME NON-TYPE RATED DECs AS THESE F/Os HAVE HAD LONGER PERIOD OF TYPE RATING SIM TRAINING,LINE TRAINING(LT1/LT2) AND MORE BASE/LINE CHECKS.
IS NOT FAIR TO BRAND THEM 'GREEN F/O', GRADE THEM INCOMPETENT AND MENTIONED YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN WHEN FLYING WITH THEM.YOU ARE ACTUALLY ACCUSING THE WHOLE SIA TRAINING SYSTEM AND THE CAAS TESTING SYSTEM THAT HAD TRAINED AND TESTED THEM, THE SAME ORGANISATIONS THAT HAD TRAINED YOU AND TESTED YOU.
IF THEY ARE NOT QUALIFIED AND CAPABLE, I DONT THINK YOU ARE.
Easy, Tiger........ he wasn't saying that. Squid
Last edited by newfreighter; 13th Jul 2007 at 06:05.
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Newfreighter,
Having read the original posting by portquartercv67, I do not see any mention of incompetent F/O's, merely inexperienced ones. Do not turn this thread into another Captain Vs Co-pilots - it is not warranted. I have found the ex-ab initio co-pilots to be keen,knowledgable and respectful. However, SIA is the only airline in the world to put such pilots directly onto B744's and B777's. The simulator and line training is designed to bring the trainee up to the minimum standard required by the CAAS and implemented by SIA. It is not designed to turn out experienced F/0's to line flying. Experience can only come with time and assistance from the Captains and other F/O's that the new co-pilots are crewed with. I have nothing but scorn for those line pilots who feel that it is not their 'job' to help the development of junior pilots and it is best left to instructors who are paid extra. Every Captain has a duty to help improve the competence and experience of their co-pilots and every co-pilot should be prepared to give every assistance to his/her Captain in order to achieve a safe flight.
It is good to hear that the Cargo guys feel that their 'lot' is improving, albeit little-by-little. Perhaps there is light at the end of the tunnel yet?
Having read the original posting by portquartercv67, I do not see any mention of incompetent F/O's, merely inexperienced ones. Do not turn this thread into another Captain Vs Co-pilots - it is not warranted. I have found the ex-ab initio co-pilots to be keen,knowledgable and respectful. However, SIA is the only airline in the world to put such pilots directly onto B744's and B777's. The simulator and line training is designed to bring the trainee up to the minimum standard required by the CAAS and implemented by SIA. It is not designed to turn out experienced F/0's to line flying. Experience can only come with time and assistance from the Captains and other F/O's that the new co-pilots are crewed with. I have nothing but scorn for those line pilots who feel that it is not their 'job' to help the development of junior pilots and it is best left to instructors who are paid extra. Every Captain has a duty to help improve the competence and experience of their co-pilots and every co-pilot should be prepared to give every assistance to his/her Captain in order to achieve a safe flight.
It is good to hear that the Cargo guys feel that their 'lot' is improving, albeit little-by-little. Perhaps there is light at the end of the tunnel yet?
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Thank you "skies"
A little judicious reminder that we are supposed to encourage and explain, not treat with disdain. Experience is only gathered by...well...experiencing! (Sort of makes sense to me) If we treat these new pilots with respect and make an effort to treat them as a big part of the crew, they'll learn to sort out the good from the bad, and learn the techniques of daily line flying. To those who would not want to have a smart and efficient crewmember with them in the flight deck...back to charm school with you!
Seems like a lonely job with no one to talk to on those long crossings...
Cheers
LC
A little judicious reminder that we are supposed to encourage and explain, not treat with disdain. Experience is only gathered by...well...experiencing! (Sort of makes sense to me) If we treat these new pilots with respect and make an effort to treat them as a big part of the crew, they'll learn to sort out the good from the bad, and learn the techniques of daily line flying. To those who would not want to have a smart and efficient crewmember with them in the flight deck...back to charm school with you!
Seems like a lonely job with no one to talk to on those long crossings...Cheers
LC
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Lest Skiesfull's eloquent posting was aimed in my direction may I kindly draw the distinction between teaching (a specialist qualification which I do not hold in SIA Cargo) and the more general responsibility of the commander to develop the skills and experience of his crew iaw page 2.24 of the FAM which I faithfully observe.
But teaching? No Sir! Haven't done the course!
But teaching? No Sir! Haven't done the course!
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DoubleBANANAS,
No it wasn't aimed specifically at you. The development of F/O's doesn't require a Captain to be 'trained', some if not most of the official training is more form filling than training. However, a Captain that takes an interest in his/her F/O's development, will impart more useful information and experience, than 4 hours of simulator time in which both trainees know exactly what is about to happen, before the instructor presses the appropriate button! I learnt more from line crews, about safe and efficient flying, than I did from any instructor-pilot. All I am saying is give these inexperienced pilots the best advice that you can to improve their experience levels, after all, they may be flying the aircraft you are 'paxing in' and you may want to feel comfortable that you have helped further their skills!!
No it wasn't aimed specifically at you. The development of F/O's doesn't require a Captain to be 'trained', some if not most of the official training is more form filling than training. However, a Captain that takes an interest in his/her F/O's development, will impart more useful information and experience, than 4 hours of simulator time in which both trainees know exactly what is about to happen, before the instructor presses the appropriate button! I learnt more from line crews, about safe and efficient flying, than I did from any instructor-pilot. All I am saying is give these inexperienced pilots the best advice that you can to improve their experience levels, after all, they may be flying the aircraft you are 'paxing in' and you may want to feel comfortable that you have helped further their skills!!
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Thanks,
I think most of us prefer just to develop the skills and experience of our new F/Os by leading by example - such as doing the walkround in the rain when the F/O is PF, making it clear that, as PM, it is my job to fill in the CFP, VR, complete the ACARS, make the tea etc etc - I understand there are still cases of "You can have the sector provided you also do all the paperwork and take the radios."
An informal, friendly chat in the bar post flight also helps more than some might think.
I am not sure whether it is a result of ab initio training or culture but I spent a goodly part of my last (very long) COP trying to get my (very capable, very keen and very inexperienced) F/O's to refrain from addressing me as "Sir" - all very polite and respectful but not conducive to producing a Flight Deck atmosphere in which I can reassure the F/O of his value to the operation and mildly amusing when I am buying him a pint.
I will refrain from commenting on the appropriateness or otherwise of putting 300 hour pilots in the RHS of a B744, but it is a very big step for pilots of limited experience to take and they deserve a lot of credit for getting their second stripe. However, whilst I will render all possible assistance to our new F/O's, I do feel the company needs to keep a close eye on experience levels in the RHS. The uncertainty regarding command courses as a significant number of our more experienced F/Os enter the last few months of their contracts could cause an experience vacuum in the RHS.
I think most of us prefer just to develop the skills and experience of our new F/Os by leading by example - such as doing the walkround in the rain when the F/O is PF, making it clear that, as PM, it is my job to fill in the CFP, VR, complete the ACARS, make the tea etc etc - I understand there are still cases of "You can have the sector provided you also do all the paperwork and take the radios."
An informal, friendly chat in the bar post flight also helps more than some might think.
I am not sure whether it is a result of ab initio training or culture but I spent a goodly part of my last (very long) COP trying to get my (very capable, very keen and very inexperienced) F/O's to refrain from addressing me as "Sir" - all very polite and respectful but not conducive to producing a Flight Deck atmosphere in which I can reassure the F/O of his value to the operation and mildly amusing when I am buying him a pint.
I will refrain from commenting on the appropriateness or otherwise of putting 300 hour pilots in the RHS of a B744, but it is a very big step for pilots of limited experience to take and they deserve a lot of credit for getting their second stripe. However, whilst I will render all possible assistance to our new F/O's, I do feel the company needs to keep a close eye on experience levels in the RHS. The uncertainty regarding command courses as a significant number of our more experienced F/Os enter the last few months of their contracts could cause an experience vacuum in the RHS.
Last edited by BANANASBANANAS; 13th Jul 2007 at 23:13.
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very interesting post. i am happy to see the professionalism that is maintained by the Captains and FO that guys like me, the new ones, are likely to be flying with.
A captain is there to help you through your experience building, thats how I see myself in few months from now. Hours would come automatically.
Richie
A captain is there to help you through your experience building, thats how I see myself in few months from now. Hours would come automatically.
Richie
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Any truth to the rumor of SIA Cargo and Cargo 360 merging? I guess the fact that it's a rumor answers my own question about "truth", but you get my drift. Just curious...
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I must say it is refreshing to read a thread where all participants conduct themselves with the utmost professionalism. Most of the threads on PPRuNe disintegrate into childish mud slinging. If this is how you all conduct yourselves here it must be a pleasure to fly with you on the line. You all have a good point!
My question: Is my experience enough for RHS at SIAC? TT2405, 630 >20ton jet & 2005 multi-crew jet. If you are flying with pilots with only TT400, surely I must have a good chance!
My question: Is my experience enough for RHS at SIAC? TT2405, 630 >20ton jet & 2005 multi-crew jet. If you are flying with pilots with only TT400, surely I must have a good chance!