India: Land of Opportunity...OR IS IT???
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India: Land of Opportunity...OR IS IT???
The grass always looks greener on the other side!
Here are a few points that I have put together for those wishing to pursue a new hire F/O job in India (assuming you have the right to work in this country)
1. If one holds a foreign licence, that licence will have to be converted to an Indian DGCA licence...and what a nightmare of a conversion it is! Red tape, archaic beauraucracy, corruption and total inefficiency plagues the Indian DGCA (Directorate General of Civil Aviation). It takes about 6 months (sometimes more) to convert that licence!
2. After the conversion, be prepared to sign either a huge training bond, a bank guarantee or furnish the amount yourself under the pretence of "training costs". These bonds or bank guarantees can last close to 7 or 10 years! And if you decide to pay it all at once, the amount can be as much as 26 lakhs (1 lakh = 100000 Rupees and 1 US $ = approx 45 Rupees). As you might have rightly figured out, there hardly is a need for a bond when one so willingly pays the whole amount up front!
3. On top of, say for example a bank guarantee, most airlines WILL deduct thousands of dollars over a period of time from your monthly salary to cover "training costs". For example, one operator, requires you to provide a bank guarantee for 7.5 lakhs for a period of 7 years. This amount is given back to you after those 7 years...which is fine. After all, an airline needs to have some assurance that you will stay, especially in India. But on top of that bank guarantee or bond or whatever you would like to call it, this airline deducts an additional 7.5 lakhs, during your commitment, from your salary!
4. Prepare to work like a slave. The current shortage of pilots does not help the situation any further. Combined with the Indian work ethic (or more aptly the required work ethic!) and the dilemma for pilots, putting in 6 days a week is common. One poor fellow commented on how his company asked him to change base on a day's notice!
5. Forget about getting in on merit. Money talks in India!
6. Good CRM is practiced in only a few companies. So as to not be mistaken, I shall say it again...GOOD CRM, not just CRM! And arguably so...kinda tricky, not impossible, to have good CRM when the FO has 250 hours (most of it in a Cessna 172) and the Captain has 6000!
6. Yes, once all the training is completed, and you occupy the right seat as a regular FO, your pay is fairly substantial (once again, depends on who you talk to!). It needs to be, especially after borrowing loans or tying up money in bank gurantees towards those training costs!
The information provided is not a fabrication but rather actual information gathered from interacting with fellow pilots in India. It merely provides an insight as to the practices of the Indian aviation industry. In other words, some food for thought, especially for those looking at India as heaven on earth!
All the best!
Aero
Here are a few points that I have put together for those wishing to pursue a new hire F/O job in India (assuming you have the right to work in this country)
1. If one holds a foreign licence, that licence will have to be converted to an Indian DGCA licence...and what a nightmare of a conversion it is! Red tape, archaic beauraucracy, corruption and total inefficiency plagues the Indian DGCA (Directorate General of Civil Aviation). It takes about 6 months (sometimes more) to convert that licence!
2. After the conversion, be prepared to sign either a huge training bond, a bank guarantee or furnish the amount yourself under the pretence of "training costs". These bonds or bank guarantees can last close to 7 or 10 years! And if you decide to pay it all at once, the amount can be as much as 26 lakhs (1 lakh = 100000 Rupees and 1 US $ = approx 45 Rupees). As you might have rightly figured out, there hardly is a need for a bond when one so willingly pays the whole amount up front!
3. On top of, say for example a bank guarantee, most airlines WILL deduct thousands of dollars over a period of time from your monthly salary to cover "training costs". For example, one operator, requires you to provide a bank guarantee for 7.5 lakhs for a period of 7 years. This amount is given back to you after those 7 years...which is fine. After all, an airline needs to have some assurance that you will stay, especially in India. But on top of that bank guarantee or bond or whatever you would like to call it, this airline deducts an additional 7.5 lakhs, during your commitment, from your salary!
4. Prepare to work like a slave. The current shortage of pilots does not help the situation any further. Combined with the Indian work ethic (or more aptly the required work ethic!) and the dilemma for pilots, putting in 6 days a week is common. One poor fellow commented on how his company asked him to change base on a day's notice!
5. Forget about getting in on merit. Money talks in India!
6. Good CRM is practiced in only a few companies. So as to not be mistaken, I shall say it again...GOOD CRM, not just CRM! And arguably so...kinda tricky, not impossible, to have good CRM when the FO has 250 hours (most of it in a Cessna 172) and the Captain has 6000!
6. Yes, once all the training is completed, and you occupy the right seat as a regular FO, your pay is fairly substantial (once again, depends on who you talk to!). It needs to be, especially after borrowing loans or tying up money in bank gurantees towards those training costs!
The information provided is not a fabrication but rather actual information gathered from interacting with fellow pilots in India. It merely provides an insight as to the practices of the Indian aviation industry. In other words, some food for thought, especially for those looking at India as heaven on earth!
All the best!
Aero
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Its a demand and supply situation and Indian pilots are going to make the best of it.
working for 6 days flying approx 80 hrs mth should only make a young FO happy faster time to capt. upgrade.
DGCA well
not even Minsiter Praful Patel can change that lot.
all this can change over nite if Mallaya get approval to get expat FO's local guys are doomed.
working for 6 days flying approx 80 hrs mth should only make a young FO happy faster time to capt. upgrade.
DGCA well
not even Minsiter Praful Patel can change that lot.all this can change over nite if Mallaya get approval to get expat FO's local guys are doomed.
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your points are really good and valid but the bottom line is if you've a better job then don't come to india. unfortunately there aren't many jobs available in the market while indian aviation is growing like crazy.
so although all these points are there to consider i'd still take the job i'm getting. thanks.....
so although all these points are there to consider i'd still take the job i'm getting. thanks.....
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Originally Posted by indianpilot
your points are really good and valid but the bottom line is if you've a better job then don't come to india. unfortunately there aren't many jobs available in the market while indian aviation is growing like crazy.
so although all these points are there to consider i'd still take the job i'm getting. thanks.....
so although all these points are there to consider i'd still take the job i'm getting. thanks.....
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propdog,
for what its worth, here are my two cents,
I was in the same predicament and spoke to a few friends of mine in India and also talked to aerogull, and decided to stay.
the quality of life, time off and the luxury of not having to deal with the DGCA are worth it. Upgrade here, get the 1000 PIC and apply to Fedex, UPS etc,
Good Luck
for what its worth, here are my two cents,
I was in the same predicament and spoke to a few friends of mine in India and also talked to aerogull, and decided to stay.
the quality of life, time off and the luxury of not having to deal with the DGCA are worth it. Upgrade here, get the 1000 PIC and apply to Fedex, UPS etc,
Good Luck
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Thank you. Glad to know that there are people in my shoes. (Too many Fu##ing choices.....just kidding!). It is tempting to jump to Inida. However, after having given a lot of thought, I too think it will be totally worth it to stick thru the regional upgrade and somehow make it to a major in the US. You are right picollo- the QOL (work rules $ bennies) and time off we enjoy in the US is going to be difficult to be matched in India.
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Not to mention that as long as you are an expat pilot in a foreign country/airline, you are the uninvited guest. Everyone might smile and be polite but lets be real here. You are only wanted because you are nessecary to keep the wheels turning. That is why asian carriers (many of them) have a nasty history of changing conracts and conditions midstream, and you off course have no rights! My advise to anyone asiabound is to make sure you are offered the same contract as everyone else. talk to pilots already there. I myself exitedly accepted a position and my own naiv attitude bit me hard where the sun don't shine. When I showed up to start the job I discovered most other pilots were on a contract with higher wages and twice as much annual leave as me.
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Propdog,
What Majors?? Most of the majors have filed for bankruptcy and it will be a long while before they start hiring again. As for FedEx and UPS you cannot work for them unless you are a US citizen. Both companies carry HazMat and DOT mandates that pilots are US citizens. Same is true for Atlas or Tradewinds.
As for quality of life, yes it was not too bad whilst i was flying CRJ's in USA. But that was as an FO, i am sure as a junior captain your life wont be any better than a CA in India. My friends who fly here hold anywhere between13-14 days off with 80-85 hours of flying. Money is not bad an d you do live like a king.
I am starting with kingfisher and will let you know what my life is like compared to living in MEM but I am sure nothing beats being close to my family.
Yes, you will have deal with DGCA and CME initially but once you are working for an airline, the airline takes care of everything.
May be grass is greener, but it is still green while I am on this side of the pond, as soon as it will start changing colors (colours?) I will post here.
Desipilot
PS: I didnt have convert my licence as I kept my CPL current since 1998.
What Majors?? Most of the majors have filed for bankruptcy and it will be a long while before they start hiring again. As for FedEx and UPS you cannot work for them unless you are a US citizen. Both companies carry HazMat and DOT mandates that pilots are US citizens. Same is true for Atlas or Tradewinds.
As for quality of life, yes it was not too bad whilst i was flying CRJ's in USA. But that was as an FO, i am sure as a junior captain your life wont be any better than a CA in India. My friends who fly here hold anywhere between13-14 days off with 80-85 hours of flying. Money is not bad an d you do live like a king.
I am starting with kingfisher and will let you know what my life is like compared to living in MEM but I am sure nothing beats being close to my family.
Yes, you will have deal with DGCA and CME initially but once you are working for an airline, the airline takes care of everything.
May be grass is greener, but it is still green while I am on this side of the pond, as soon as it will start changing colors (colours?) I will post here.
DesipilotPS: I didnt have convert my licence as I kept my CPL current since 1998.
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my advice to you propdog and others cominn inside the party
stay there where you are flying
unles U just wanna make money
is that the main reason? then come here, but heyy! be prepared
some people could say......lets celebrate our diferences.........
but damnnnnn
this is to much of a change
unless your Indian and wanna be close to mom, see some cricket & U are used to this way of living
then you will have no problem
i guess a point a lot forget bout why expat's are here
....none or almost all didnt have a current job and where desperate
....previos company closed or strugglinn
....some where close by and took the chance
....some just didnt have an idea of how this was
....and of course.......the bucks
thats it ...........PERIOD........
money TALK$ ,.................BS walks, like aerogul said before
no one came here to see the TAj or the bridge in Kolkatta or get the party started at Goa, no way jose, just the money and not knowing what to espect came with it............ a big big mess and chaos
ive seen americans, brazilians, australian, german, dutch, you name it, coming here talking a lot about the money they were making on the nice jets and all that, but soon after weeks or months of being here with nothing to do or see, other than a big bank acc, they gett crazy and just wanna leave running, like they have been doing
i see some of the post and it makes me wonder
some say that the airline takes care of evrything?.........blablabla..... yeah right!!!!!..... validations? exams? test?, it's all a joke, all the companies have some1 arranging all , so everybodys (pilots & AME's) passes their exams here, qualified people............jajajajajaja, only few locals the rest came from outta town, and now the gov reduced the hours to become a pilot, big deal, now kids come less prepared.............imagine that with doctors............no sir, now you wont need to study 6 years to become a dr, the country needs a lot of drs. so youll now just have to study 4 years,.,.....jajajajajaj what a joke
no one seems to care, thats the practice in this industry........sad, with all the money and tech they have here, just go at the DGCA in delhi, and youll get a free ride to the past (mid 50's) cool huh!?!?!? better than any museum (oh and pls dont enter the toilets!!!!!!!unless wearing a PBE and gloves)
like picollo said............and i agree with him 110%
quality of life guys
no MONEY can top that believe me its true for all of us still here
and thats what sometimes puts us on a low some days by missinn all of that
and for what...............well once again.......................money
dont take it personally
im having 1 of my low & down days here in incredible india
more money............less life
c ya guys
stay there where you are flying
unles U just wanna make money
is that the main reason? then come here, but heyy! be prepared
some people could say......lets celebrate our diferences.........
but damnnnnn
this is to much of a change
unless your Indian and wanna be close to mom, see some cricket & U are used to this way of living
then you will have no problem
i guess a point a lot forget bout why expat's are here
....none or almost all didnt have a current job and where desperate
....previos company closed or strugglinn
....some where close by and took the chance
....some just didnt have an idea of how this was
....and of course.......the bucks
thats it ...........PERIOD........
money TALK$ ,.................BS walks, like aerogul said before
no one came here to see the TAj or the bridge in Kolkatta or get the party started at Goa, no way jose, just the money and not knowing what to espect came with it............ a big big mess and chaos
ive seen americans, brazilians, australian, german, dutch, you name it, coming here talking a lot about the money they were making on the nice jets and all that, but soon after weeks or months of being here with nothing to do or see, other than a big bank acc, they gett crazy and just wanna leave running, like they have been doing
i see some of the post and it makes me wonder
some say that the airline takes care of evrything?.........blablabla..... yeah right!!!!!..... validations? exams? test?, it's all a joke, all the companies have some1 arranging all , so everybodys (pilots & AME's) passes their exams here, qualified people............jajajajajaja, only few locals the rest came from outta town, and now the gov reduced the hours to become a pilot, big deal, now kids come less prepared.............imagine that with doctors............no sir, now you wont need to study 6 years to become a dr, the country needs a lot of drs. so youll now just have to study 4 years,.,.....jajajajajaj what a joke
no one seems to care, thats the practice in this industry........sad, with all the money and tech they have here, just go at the DGCA in delhi, and youll get a free ride to the past (mid 50's) cool huh!?!?!? better than any museum (oh and pls dont enter the toilets!!!!!!!unless wearing a PBE and gloves)
like picollo said............and i agree with him 110%
quality of life guys
no MONEY can top that believe me its true for all of us still here
and thats what sometimes puts us on a low some days by missinn all of that
and for what...............well once again.......................money
dont take it personally
im having 1 of my low & down days here in incredible india
more money............less life
c ya guys
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Desipilot,
You are mistaken. You do not need to be a citizen to fly for UPS. I have friends there who are on green cards alone.
I am with a US major and am not a citizen. We have many nationalities here.
I do agree that Atlas requires you to be a citizen as they fly military contracts.
You are mistaken. You do not need to be a citizen to fly for UPS. I have friends there who are on green cards alone.
I am with a US major and am not a citizen. We have many nationalities here.
I do agree that Atlas requires you to be a citizen as they fly military contracts.
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An addition to my post.....
Spoke to some copilots a few days ago. One chap has hardly been with his company for a few months and is asking about opportunites in the west and in Europe. This person has invested a lot in his type training (and by a lot I mean A LOT!!!) and is fed up with poor CRM and SOP's. Some arrogant captains in his workplace who scream, yell and swear. Add to that a hectic work schedule and you have a real nightmare of a job. The other guys attest to this as well. These "cpatains" seem to have a chip on their shoulders with regards to people having trained in the west and returning to India for employment.
Once again, no fabrication but facts. Take it or leave it.
Aero
Spoke to some copilots a few days ago. One chap has hardly been with his company for a few months and is asking about opportunites in the west and in Europe. This person has invested a lot in his type training (and by a lot I mean A LOT!!!) and is fed up with poor CRM and SOP's. Some arrogant captains in his workplace who scream, yell and swear. Add to that a hectic work schedule and you have a real nightmare of a job. The other guys attest to this as well. These "cpatains" seem to have a chip on their shoulders with regards to people having trained in the west and returning to India for employment.
Once again, no fabrication but facts. Take it or leave it.
Aero
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yyzdub, dont be so sure its going to happen very soon.
There are more than 1000 xpat pilots in India today and the number is growing fast....... the DGCA may never make it official but deals will are being done and xpats are currently flying right seat.
No harm done! as far as the locals do not loose out the xpat pilots
There are more than 1000 xpat pilots in India today and the number is growing fast....... the DGCA may never make it official but deals will are being done and xpats are currently flying right seat.
No harm done! as far as the locals do not loose out the xpat pilots
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the only expats that fly RHS are instructors, and in some cases due to shortage of f/o's they put 2 caps together on same flt, but 1 local f/0 must be in flight deck at all times
bye
bye
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Mo
desipilot..... you said in ur post : "PS: I didnt have convert my licence as I kept my CPL current since 1998."
If you don't mind can you please advice me on :
Which country licence did you have?
Does that mean that if i have a foreign licence (Malaysian CPL/ME/IR/FROZEN ATPL) all current... i don't have to convert in India (I am an indian citizen)?
If you don't mind can you please advice me on :
Which country licence did you have?
Does that mean that if i have a foreign licence (Malaysian CPL/ME/IR/FROZEN ATPL) all current... i don't have to convert in India (I am an indian citizen)?