Orient Thai
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: 30,000 Ft
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Orient Thai is a Joke, they really do test the market forces. Started by offering 757 captains $5000 then $5500 and now finally $6000 in their last advert.
However there seems to be an excess supply of cheap B747 labor.. they are still stuck at $5000.
However there seems to be an excess supply of cheap B747 labor.. they are still stuck at $5000.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: dublin
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Well, to all the OT and Ex- OT guys around, I just saw a listing on Flight International for L1011 Crews (FE, FO, Capt) for a European basing, urgent requirement. So if OT is as bad as everyone is saying, may be worth a shot sending your CV off.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: thailand
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For anyone left in any doubt as to the terrible state of Orient Thai read the following post which was on anohter thread here on Pprune only a couple of weeks ago:
Orient Thai Airlines is hiring again. Before you pack up and move to Thailand, here are a few things to think about. Conditions are getting worse and the conditions you join under will not be the ones that you work under. There is no contract for foreigners at Orient Thai, and the conditions change at the whim of the owner. There is no legal fallback. If you don't like the way things change, your only option is to leave. I don’t expect you to take my word here on Pprune, but this information will allow you to ask the questions that you need to ask the DFO or Fleet Manager before packing up and moving over there.
First lets talk about the pay. You will be told that you will be paid $6000 / month, minus $500 / month temporary pay reduction - ie $5500. That is true for right now, but another $500 pay cut will happen soon. OX management recently put an advertisement on Climbto350 for pilots at a pay scale of $5000 a month. Once there are enough pilots, your pay will be cut again.
OX has been on 2 previous hiring sprees in the past few months. Both times several pilots were told they had a job there, and at the last minute thier jobs were canceled. Leaving them without a job or a house. The second time was when an airline in the US that was flying 757s and MD80's went under and K Udom thought that these guys would be desperate for jobs. The pilots that were already told that they had jobs with OX (that had quit their other jobs and rented out their houses) were told not to come, and the ad was put in Climbto350 targeting those pilots (only one showed up).
‘Pilot Pay and Working Conditions’ Document: Here are some examples of what the management thinks of the Pilot Pay and Working Conditions Document:
- The probation period does not end in 6 months. People have been ‘let go’ after 18 months. There is always another excuse but the people that go are coincidently the ones that have crew duty or other safety related concerns.
- You will not be paid on “the 4th day of the month”. You might be paid, if you are going to be paid, by the 9th. Every month there seems to be someone who does not get paid and who has to go, cap in hand, to Namphon to ask to be paid. Namphon blames someone else (even though she is in charge of pay) and takes her time fixing it. They generally get it by the end of the month.
- Noone has ever been paid the $100 per day “extra duty” pay for working more then 17 days a month. Everybody has done it in the last few months, but I don’t know of anyone who was paid it – and I asked around.
- “Extended Duty Tail-End Deadhead Option” – first of all, it is not an option. They don’t have enough crews for anyone to refuse it, so you will take it. Secondly, you will have to fight for the money.
- “Definition of Duty Days” – Please amend this section of your document to read “How long you have to fly to get the job done, because they don’t have enough crews to work within the already large limits.”
- Yearly “Bonus Scheme” – has never been paid. I don’t know anyone who was ever paid this money – including people who were there for close to two years, and dozens who were there over a year.
- Working Permits and Taxes – The company may, at its random discretion, organize a work permit for you. Some people got them, some didn’t. If you work there without one, well, it depends on who is bribing who as to what happens to you. Taxes – No pilots have paid any taxes, but you will be asked to give banking details of at least two different banks (one has to be outside Thailand) because the company only declares half your income to the tax office.
- Yes you do get some kind of medical coverage, but not for your spouse. You would have to go to the "HR department”, and there isn't one.
- “Travel Privileges” – I haven’t heard anything recently, but a few months ago there was a big deal where pilots wanted to take their wifes with them on domestic overnights. Dealing with Namphon to buy the standby tickets is so unpleasant that the pilots would just buy the full fare tickets. A Captian tried to buy a ticket for his wife to travel on the same flight as him and they wouldn't sell it to him. They told him that the flight was oversold. He operated that flight 2 hours later and there were 160 people on a 220 seat aircraft. The ticket agents wanted Namphons approval to sell him the full fare ticket (the CP sent out an email to all piolts saying that if we are wanting to buy a full fare ticket on OX for our spouse, do so out of uniform so as not to cuase confusion. This is ‘travel Privileges’ with OX - i.e. to travel on this airline you have to sneak in and pretend that you aren't a pilot). I personally know three pilots who flew their wives to Phuket on other airlines at full fare rather than deal with OX.
- Sick Policy – I have seen 3 pilots that have required longer term sick leave. All 3 only got it after direct intervention of the fleet manager. If left to OX, they would not have got paid. Those managers have since been asked to leave.
- Leave – 21 days sounds good, but know that there is no ‘days before’ or ‘days after’. If you take 10 days, you have to be back after 10 days. No matching it up with days off.
- The only part of this document that you can count on is the bonds – they will deduct these from your pay. When you have fulfilled the obligations for getting them back, it will be up to you to fight for them.
Here are some other things to think about before joining:
- You do not get a roster – A roster is published at (or near) the start of the the month, but is changed on a daily basis and you (might be) phoned the night before to be advised of changes. You can not plan your days off, because your days off will be changed. Not may be changed, WILL be changed. Sometimes with less then a days notice. The only time that you can leave the country is the 21 days annual leave, You will be fighting for 3 days to go down to Phuket.
- You can be fired at any time, even when on leave. There are examples of pilots that went home on leave and were called and told they don’t need to come back – no notice.
- Conditions of employment can and will be changed at the whim of management. For example, in February of this year, when they were short of pilots, it was declared that all leave had to be taken in the year that it was accrued. Some pilots lost 14 days of leave they had accurued in 2004. It was cheaper than hireing another pilot.
- There is continual indirect pressure to get the job done. You, as pilots, know what this can mean regarding maintenance and duty limits.
- Maintenaance: It is getting worse.
The MD 80 fleet has less than 2 crews per aircraft. They are flying 14 hour duty days. 6 sector a day in an aircraft with virtually no air conditioning when it is on the ground. Night flying is split shifts – often back to back.
B757 fleet is better manned than that, but still far under what is necessary for the job. Luckily for the crews, it is very rare that all three aircraft are operating at the same time.
B747 fleet has always been the hardest working crews. They fly unbelievable hours and days. I believe that many are still on unpaid leave, because during slow times, pilots are put on unpaid leave so as to reduce the cost of having pilots. During busy times, these guys fly triple figures month after month, if the flying drops off they are assigned unpaid leave while the remaining pilots continue to fly triple figures. I believe that they are averaging 5 days unpaid leave a month right now.
after confirming all this was true and then some this was my follow up reply:
Examples....i could go on and on!
Maintenance not speaking english and not being qualified on aircraft they are working on, when confronted they soon disappear. Staight up lying to pilots about what work has been done on aircraft, Signing aircraft off having done no rectification work at all. Pilots being induced to fly without MEL items and often with no-go items. Maintenance claiming a complete instument failure after take off into imc was \'normal\' because it had happened twice before! Being rostered over FTL\'s. Short of crews. Being advised of pay cuts a month after they occur. Pay deals entirely different to signed contract. No recourse for pilots leagally within thailand.
No formal rest days. Simply receive rosta on a daily basis so not possible to plan any days off or to use them. Often 2 or 3 rosta changes in a single day. Pilots arriving for work as scheduled to be told their flights are cancelled and \'were you not notified\'? If you ever get a standby day and it\'s not used it becomes your day off. Seemingly random pay deductions at will which are easier to simply accept than attempt to rectify.
No work permits potentially risking chances of employment with any good company if discovered. A thai visa....may happen sometime, if your very lucky. Your not legally in thailand so they don\'t have to declare your income...or pay tax on it.
In short this company is very much illegal and increasingly dangerous. My advice to anyone considering employment here is to think again
Orient Thai Airlines is hiring again. Before you pack up and move to Thailand, here are a few things to think about. Conditions are getting worse and the conditions you join under will not be the ones that you work under. There is no contract for foreigners at Orient Thai, and the conditions change at the whim of the owner. There is no legal fallback. If you don't like the way things change, your only option is to leave. I don’t expect you to take my word here on Pprune, but this information will allow you to ask the questions that you need to ask the DFO or Fleet Manager before packing up and moving over there.
First lets talk about the pay. You will be told that you will be paid $6000 / month, minus $500 / month temporary pay reduction - ie $5500. That is true for right now, but another $500 pay cut will happen soon. OX management recently put an advertisement on Climbto350 for pilots at a pay scale of $5000 a month. Once there are enough pilots, your pay will be cut again.
OX has been on 2 previous hiring sprees in the past few months. Both times several pilots were told they had a job there, and at the last minute thier jobs were canceled. Leaving them without a job or a house. The second time was when an airline in the US that was flying 757s and MD80's went under and K Udom thought that these guys would be desperate for jobs. The pilots that were already told that they had jobs with OX (that had quit their other jobs and rented out their houses) were told not to come, and the ad was put in Climbto350 targeting those pilots (only one showed up).
‘Pilot Pay and Working Conditions’ Document: Here are some examples of what the management thinks of the Pilot Pay and Working Conditions Document:
- The probation period does not end in 6 months. People have been ‘let go’ after 18 months. There is always another excuse but the people that go are coincidently the ones that have crew duty or other safety related concerns.
- You will not be paid on “the 4th day of the month”. You might be paid, if you are going to be paid, by the 9th. Every month there seems to be someone who does not get paid and who has to go, cap in hand, to Namphon to ask to be paid. Namphon blames someone else (even though she is in charge of pay) and takes her time fixing it. They generally get it by the end of the month.
- Noone has ever been paid the $100 per day “extra duty” pay for working more then 17 days a month. Everybody has done it in the last few months, but I don’t know of anyone who was paid it – and I asked around.
- “Extended Duty Tail-End Deadhead Option” – first of all, it is not an option. They don’t have enough crews for anyone to refuse it, so you will take it. Secondly, you will have to fight for the money.
- “Definition of Duty Days” – Please amend this section of your document to read “How long you have to fly to get the job done, because they don’t have enough crews to work within the already large limits.”
- Yearly “Bonus Scheme” – has never been paid. I don’t know anyone who was ever paid this money – including people who were there for close to two years, and dozens who were there over a year.
- Working Permits and Taxes – The company may, at its random discretion, organize a work permit for you. Some people got them, some didn’t. If you work there without one, well, it depends on who is bribing who as to what happens to you. Taxes – No pilots have paid any taxes, but you will be asked to give banking details of at least two different banks (one has to be outside Thailand) because the company only declares half your income to the tax office.
- Yes you do get some kind of medical coverage, but not for your spouse. You would have to go to the "HR department”, and there isn't one.
- “Travel Privileges” – I haven’t heard anything recently, but a few months ago there was a big deal where pilots wanted to take their wifes with them on domestic overnights. Dealing with Namphon to buy the standby tickets is so unpleasant that the pilots would just buy the full fare tickets. A Captian tried to buy a ticket for his wife to travel on the same flight as him and they wouldn't sell it to him. They told him that the flight was oversold. He operated that flight 2 hours later and there were 160 people on a 220 seat aircraft. The ticket agents wanted Namphons approval to sell him the full fare ticket (the CP sent out an email to all piolts saying that if we are wanting to buy a full fare ticket on OX for our spouse, do so out of uniform so as not to cuase confusion. This is ‘travel Privileges’ with OX - i.e. to travel on this airline you have to sneak in and pretend that you aren't a pilot). I personally know three pilots who flew their wives to Phuket on other airlines at full fare rather than deal with OX.
- Sick Policy – I have seen 3 pilots that have required longer term sick leave. All 3 only got it after direct intervention of the fleet manager. If left to OX, they would not have got paid. Those managers have since been asked to leave.
- Leave – 21 days sounds good, but know that there is no ‘days before’ or ‘days after’. If you take 10 days, you have to be back after 10 days. No matching it up with days off.
- The only part of this document that you can count on is the bonds – they will deduct these from your pay. When you have fulfilled the obligations for getting them back, it will be up to you to fight for them.
Here are some other things to think about before joining:
- You do not get a roster – A roster is published at (or near) the start of the the month, but is changed on a daily basis and you (might be) phoned the night before to be advised of changes. You can not plan your days off, because your days off will be changed. Not may be changed, WILL be changed. Sometimes with less then a days notice. The only time that you can leave the country is the 21 days annual leave, You will be fighting for 3 days to go down to Phuket.
- You can be fired at any time, even when on leave. There are examples of pilots that went home on leave and were called and told they don’t need to come back – no notice.
- Conditions of employment can and will be changed at the whim of management. For example, in February of this year, when they were short of pilots, it was declared that all leave had to be taken in the year that it was accrued. Some pilots lost 14 days of leave they had accurued in 2004. It was cheaper than hireing another pilot.
- There is continual indirect pressure to get the job done. You, as pilots, know what this can mean regarding maintenance and duty limits.
- Maintenaance: It is getting worse.
The MD 80 fleet has less than 2 crews per aircraft. They are flying 14 hour duty days. 6 sector a day in an aircraft with virtually no air conditioning when it is on the ground. Night flying is split shifts – often back to back.
B757 fleet is better manned than that, but still far under what is necessary for the job. Luckily for the crews, it is very rare that all three aircraft are operating at the same time.
B747 fleet has always been the hardest working crews. They fly unbelievable hours and days. I believe that many are still on unpaid leave, because during slow times, pilots are put on unpaid leave so as to reduce the cost of having pilots. During busy times, these guys fly triple figures month after month, if the flying drops off they are assigned unpaid leave while the remaining pilots continue to fly triple figures. I believe that they are averaging 5 days unpaid leave a month right now.
after confirming all this was true and then some this was my follow up reply:
Examples....i could go on and on!
Maintenance not speaking english and not being qualified on aircraft they are working on, when confronted they soon disappear. Staight up lying to pilots about what work has been done on aircraft, Signing aircraft off having done no rectification work at all. Pilots being induced to fly without MEL items and often with no-go items. Maintenance claiming a complete instument failure after take off into imc was \'normal\' because it had happened twice before! Being rostered over FTL\'s. Short of crews. Being advised of pay cuts a month after they occur. Pay deals entirely different to signed contract. No recourse for pilots leagally within thailand.
No formal rest days. Simply receive rosta on a daily basis so not possible to plan any days off or to use them. Often 2 or 3 rosta changes in a single day. Pilots arriving for work as scheduled to be told their flights are cancelled and \'were you not notified\'? If you ever get a standby day and it\'s not used it becomes your day off. Seemingly random pay deductions at will which are easier to simply accept than attempt to rectify.
No work permits potentially risking chances of employment with any good company if discovered. A thai visa....may happen sometime, if your very lucky. Your not legally in thailand so they don\'t have to declare your income...or pay tax on it.
In short this company is very much illegal and increasingly dangerous. My advice to anyone considering employment here is to think again
