China Airlines/China Airlines F/O, (update)-Merged Twice!.
Join Date: Jun 2004
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End Of Line.
You have 8 days of Home Leave in row per month plus you can add 2 or 4 days of annual leave to it.
You start your schedule at a certain destination(i.e. LAX,YVR,MIA or FRA) and finish your duty at the same place.
Its not wonder they called you so fast,as a lot of people are leaving.
You have 8 days of Home Leave in row per month plus you can add 2 or 4 days of annual leave to it.
You start your schedule at a certain destination(i.e. LAX,YVR,MIA or FRA) and finish your duty at the same place.
Its not wonder they called you so fast,as a lot of people are leaving.
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Hi All,
I was just wondering if anybody could give some infos about the problem for the validation of the licence. I read on the forum in another subject that the taiwanese licence is not valid anywhere else due to the fact that they are not ICAO. If I'm right, you have to convert your JAR licence into a local licence and then the local CAA will endorse your 340/744 rating on your taiwanese licence. But if you leave and go back to a JAR country, your local CAA will not put your type rating on your licence.
Knowing the fact that there is almost no chance to get upgraded and that expats are leaving because of that, could anybody give some feedback about the problems with the licence? Do you think that airlines operating the aircraft types concerned will not look at if you apply for them ?(let's say Virgin, Monarch or BA for exemple). I think that if they hire you you will anyway need some home training to learn their SOP's and you will have to pass an OPC/LPC with a JAR examiner. Would this not resolve the problem about licence validation? Maybe I'm dreaming to much !!
Last question, do you think that CA is a good place to go for some years to get some LH experience and also get a very valuable TR before coming back in Europe. Single, no kids.
Thanks for your help guys.
Cheers
I was just wondering if anybody could give some infos about the problem for the validation of the licence. I read on the forum in another subject that the taiwanese licence is not valid anywhere else due to the fact that they are not ICAO. If I'm right, you have to convert your JAR licence into a local licence and then the local CAA will endorse your 340/744 rating on your taiwanese licence. But if you leave and go back to a JAR country, your local CAA will not put your type rating on your licence.
Knowing the fact that there is almost no chance to get upgraded and that expats are leaving because of that, could anybody give some feedback about the problems with the licence? Do you think that airlines operating the aircraft types concerned will not look at if you apply for them ?(let's say Virgin, Monarch or BA for exemple). I think that if they hire you you will anyway need some home training to learn their SOP's and you will have to pass an OPC/LPC with a JAR examiner. Would this not resolve the problem about licence validation? Maybe I'm dreaming to much !!
Last question, do you think that CA is a good place to go for some years to get some LH experience and also get a very valuable TR before coming back in Europe. Single, no kids.
Thanks for your help guys.
Cheers
Join Date: Jun 2001
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If your concern is with the Taiwan ATPL, then I don't see any problem? There are no flying schools in Taiwan, so no matter what you will be getting your ATPL from some other country.
As for the endorsement, other countries will accept the experience, but not normally the endorsement.
Options
1) do a sim check in your country to put on your ATPL.
2) Go through the USA licence system, then your local authority more than likely will accept the endorsement through the FAA
3) don't worry about it
As for the endorsement, other countries will accept the experience, but not normally the endorsement.
Options
1) do a sim check in your country to put on your ATPL.
2) Go through the USA licence system, then your local authority more than likely will accept the endorsement through the FAA
3) don't worry about it
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DESKE.....I know some think CAL is the end of the line.....but I think it stands for
EXTENDED LAY OVER
It was their way to build bases where people could live and cut the company's costs. The benefit to the pilots were to allow them to be home more and to be in Taiwan less.
I know they did start a few places and I expect that they moved it to F/Os. Previously it was just Captains that they built bases outside of TPE for.
EXTENDED LAY OVER
It was their way to build bases where people could live and cut the company's costs. The benefit to the pilots were to allow them to be home more and to be in Taiwan less.
I know they did start a few places and I expect that they moved it to F/Os. Previously it was just Captains that they built bases outside of TPE for.
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CAJUN30
Where are you in Louisiana? So what you be doin' there?
Just drove through I-10 with a car and went to school up at La. Tech.
On the OKC/FAA , exactly what it that you did? You can go to the FAA.GOV web site and see all of your ratings. In what way, does the US recognize or even KNOW ABOUT my Taiwan rating? Are you saying that if all I had was the Taiwan ATPL that I could get a US FAA license added?
Actually Taiwan trains for circling approaches and the US does not at least on the 747-400. That is why most US guys have a restriction that mandates VFR minimums for circling in big jets like the 747-400.
Where are you in Louisiana? So what you be doin' there?
Just drove through I-10 with a car and went to school up at La. Tech.
On the OKC/FAA , exactly what it that you did? You can go to the FAA.GOV web site and see all of your ratings. In what way, does the US recognize or even KNOW ABOUT my Taiwan rating? Are you saying that if all I had was the Taiwan ATPL that I could get a US FAA license added?
Actually Taiwan trains for circling approaches and the US does not at least on the 747-400. That is why most US guys have a restriction that mandates VFR minimums for circling in big jets like the 747-400.
Last edited by Jim Morehead; 2nd Apr 2005 at 01:06.
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SNOWYMAN...I see my last posting was in October of 2003 in the subject, so 18 months have gone by. A lot happened in 18 months in my life.
To answer your question, I recall the Captain pay to be between 8K and 10K per month. It changed because of the hours. they kept claiming they had a pilot shortage, yet would schedule us for 65 or 70 hours with days sitting around TPE doing nothing. Most people want to work more.
In terms of updating my answer, I only would say I encountered less than three pricks at CAL. One was the 744 Chief Pilot and totally unbearable. Even his own colleagues agreed. But I understand he is now a line pilot and possible instructor. you can't avoid any airline for one jerk. But I'd never take anything from this guy including a free beer.
One other guy was always pissed off at the world and ex-pats.
I think there might have been a few bad attitudes from a few (less than 5) locals, but I can say that I found the vast majority to be great to work with.
The biggest issues are being scheduled to a high number to make more money as long as you were going to eat up 80% of every month away from home. They should have rescheduled more American to America, More Canadians to Canada, more Aussies to Australia,.etc. when ever possible.
They finally did go to an ELO program I understand and I think it may have been extended to F/Os. It would ahve been nice to fly MIA-ANC-MIA and stay in one's region and only go to TPE every three months.
Actually I did enjoy TPE and enjoyed the hotel people, most of the crew schedulers and workers, and many others in the training department and the Chief Pilot office. There are people that read this regularly and I will tell them that I do miss the honest good citizens who I still consider friends. They know who they are.
And why did I leave? The main reason was a pending unexpected divorce. I took a leave of absence and they would not extend it any further which was too bad. But it was their decision and not mine.
There was also an incident (so minor that any other airline would have solved it with a :15 office visit) that got bigger because the then Chief Pilot made it so. I would do the exact same thing today and it boiled down to world politics. The Koreans don't like the Taiwanese and I was a Taiwanese pilot. End of story!
I still have friends there and a lot of people have moved on. I wish them and you well.
To answer your question, I recall the Captain pay to be between 8K and 10K per month. It changed because of the hours. they kept claiming they had a pilot shortage, yet would schedule us for 65 or 70 hours with days sitting around TPE doing nothing. Most people want to work more.
In terms of updating my answer, I only would say I encountered less than three pricks at CAL. One was the 744 Chief Pilot and totally unbearable. Even his own colleagues agreed. But I understand he is now a line pilot and possible instructor. you can't avoid any airline for one jerk. But I'd never take anything from this guy including a free beer.
One other guy was always pissed off at the world and ex-pats.
I think there might have been a few bad attitudes from a few (less than 5) locals, but I can say that I found the vast majority to be great to work with.
The biggest issues are being scheduled to a high number to make more money as long as you were going to eat up 80% of every month away from home. They should have rescheduled more American to America, More Canadians to Canada, more Aussies to Australia,.etc. when ever possible.
They finally did go to an ELO program I understand and I think it may have been extended to F/Os. It would ahve been nice to fly MIA-ANC-MIA and stay in one's region and only go to TPE every three months.
Actually I did enjoy TPE and enjoyed the hotel people, most of the crew schedulers and workers, and many others in the training department and the Chief Pilot office. There are people that read this regularly and I will tell them that I do miss the honest good citizens who I still consider friends. They know who they are.
And why did I leave? The main reason was a pending unexpected divorce. I took a leave of absence and they would not extend it any further which was too bad. But it was their decision and not mine.
There was also an incident (so minor that any other airline would have solved it with a :15 office visit) that got bigger because the then Chief Pilot made it so. I would do the exact same thing today and it boiled down to world politics. The Koreans don't like the Taiwanese and I was a Taiwanese pilot. End of story!
I still have friends there and a lot of people have moved on. I wish them and you well.
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G'day Jim...Hope things are back on track for you.
In your time away, not much, if anything has improved.
One thing the experts are trying to implement is that Expats will only be able to bid specifically three time per year for your home leave. Our contracts are silent on this, saying only that we will get 8 consecutive days, not that we can actually request which days.
IBT
In your time away, not much, if anything has improved.
One thing the experts are trying to implement is that Expats will only be able to bid specifically three time per year for your home leave. Our contracts are silent on this, saying only that we will get 8 consecutive days, not that we can actually request which days.
IBT
GDay Jim
Hi Jim,
All your Aussie drinking buddies have gone. It took some 12-18 months to see the writing on the wall.
Go only as a DEC.
Do not go expecting upgrades even if you have extensive PIC time on jets and are offered only the RHS with CAL.
I hope all is well with you Jim.
RFN
All your Aussie drinking buddies have gone. It took some 12-18 months to see the writing on the wall.
Go only as a DEC.
Do not go expecting upgrades even if you have extensive PIC time on jets and are offered only the RHS with CAL.
I hope all is well with you Jim.
RFN
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I'll check with a few friends,but I think the only thing that slows down China Airlines is Chinese New Year! The debate over the Taiwan straights issue is going to continue forever.
JIM
JIM
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Let me clarify and add a few things to my posting of April 1st.
In my referring to Korea versus Taiwan or any country versus another, I was not referring to pilots but politicians. I've known pilots from lots of country that recognize these same battles being fought by governments needlessly.
To see some minior flight incident being turned into a major bruhaha is so sad.
CAL isn't for everybody, but could be a good place for some.
I got some e-mails back from a few friends and here's what they said after 18 months of seeing them and us all starting together.
I noted one response was:
<<<One thing the experts are trying to implement is that Expats will only be able to bid specifically three times per year for your home leave>>>
If CAL were to change this it would be a disaster. Each month, you get to preference and place days off in the computer to hve off. In every month of my 8 that I bid prefernced, they gave me the days off. I had Thanksgiving off as it is not a holiday outside of the US really. Certainly not Taiwan. I also got Christmas off as they roated it. Most Taiwanese don't care about Christmas. Some do. Most don't. Again, it was appreciated and I had a backup set of choices. No company can give everybody Christmas off in the airline business. In trade, for that, The Chinese want Chinese New Year and I was working over that period,but in an out of Taiwan during that time. It was fun and the fireworks and celebrations were neat. I really enjoyed that part of the experience and I again emphasize that I met a lot of good friends there both locals and ex-pats that I still call friends.
If this rumor were to be true, then this would lose a lot of expats. Hopefully that is not their goal and this is just a bad rumor.
From one friend :
<<<Well, I'm still here at CAL - waiting patiently. Nobody (expat) has been upgraded since I've been here. It is a light at the end of a very long tunnel. But so far what they have told me (at the intial interview) has not come to fruition. I constantly have to remind the people I fly with, that I do have an experienced background ......Captains generally don't trust their FOs...
Most of the Ex Ansett captains (now CAL RPs and FOs) have gone. Most 738 Captains are still here (they retain their commands). I don't know how long it is going to take for upgrade, but a couple of CCs (4-5 years with CAL) have gone also. It is just disappointing to feel that your experience is not entirely recognised with the system in place at CAL>>>
this message was disturbing from a VERY rational guy. He is a good friend and I cut out all but the highlights of the message.
FROM another F/O friend there:
<<<CAL seems to be stepping up the treat ex-pats like **** program. Most Aussies have gone. several new hired so american guys quit before finishing training.>>>
Now this is from another guy and if true, it surprises me. He was a pretty quiet guy who never would have seen this when I was there. I don't know why anyone would do this. Perhaps a different perspective?
From another friend, who did not finish F/O training and was highly experienced and used to speak Australian:
<<<start command training next week >>>
this guy had been a 15,000+ guy who they made start in the right seat because he did not have a type rating in the 747-400.
He means he starts Command (Captain for you guys in the other parts of the world) training at ANOTHER place in the world.
It is so easy to see where they are going down the wrong path often in terms of pilot retention. There are so many things that good be improved,but don't seem to be.
What disturbs me so much is that are so many dedicated people at CAL whose efforts are being wasted while just a few hurt the overall success they COULD be having.
In my referring to Korea versus Taiwan or any country versus another, I was not referring to pilots but politicians. I've known pilots from lots of country that recognize these same battles being fought by governments needlessly.
To see some minior flight incident being turned into a major bruhaha is so sad.
CAL isn't for everybody, but could be a good place for some.
I got some e-mails back from a few friends and here's what they said after 18 months of seeing them and us all starting together.
I noted one response was:
<<<One thing the experts are trying to implement is that Expats will only be able to bid specifically three times per year for your home leave>>>
If CAL were to change this it would be a disaster. Each month, you get to preference and place days off in the computer to hve off. In every month of my 8 that I bid prefernced, they gave me the days off. I had Thanksgiving off as it is not a holiday outside of the US really. Certainly not Taiwan. I also got Christmas off as they roated it. Most Taiwanese don't care about Christmas. Some do. Most don't. Again, it was appreciated and I had a backup set of choices. No company can give everybody Christmas off in the airline business. In trade, for that, The Chinese want Chinese New Year and I was working over that period,but in an out of Taiwan during that time. It was fun and the fireworks and celebrations were neat. I really enjoyed that part of the experience and I again emphasize that I met a lot of good friends there both locals and ex-pats that I still call friends.
If this rumor were to be true, then this would lose a lot of expats. Hopefully that is not their goal and this is just a bad rumor.
From one friend :
<<<Well, I'm still here at CAL - waiting patiently. Nobody (expat) has been upgraded since I've been here. It is a light at the end of a very long tunnel. But so far what they have told me (at the intial interview) has not come to fruition. I constantly have to remind the people I fly with, that I do have an experienced background ......Captains generally don't trust their FOs...
Most of the Ex Ansett captains (now CAL RPs and FOs) have gone. Most 738 Captains are still here (they retain their commands). I don't know how long it is going to take for upgrade, but a couple of CCs (4-5 years with CAL) have gone also. It is just disappointing to feel that your experience is not entirely recognised with the system in place at CAL>>>
this message was disturbing from a VERY rational guy. He is a good friend and I cut out all but the highlights of the message.
FROM another F/O friend there:
<<<CAL seems to be stepping up the treat ex-pats like **** program. Most Aussies have gone. several new hired so american guys quit before finishing training.>>>
Now this is from another guy and if true, it surprises me. He was a pretty quiet guy who never would have seen this when I was there. I don't know why anyone would do this. Perhaps a different perspective?
From another friend, who did not finish F/O training and was highly experienced and used to speak Australian:
<<<start command training next week >>>
this guy had been a 15,000+ guy who they made start in the right seat because he did not have a type rating in the 747-400.
He means he starts Command (Captain for you guys in the other parts of the world) training at ANOTHER place in the world.
It is so easy to see where they are going down the wrong path often in terms of pilot retention. There are so many things that good be improved,but don't seem to be.
What disturbs me so much is that are so many dedicated people at CAL whose efforts are being wasted while just a few hurt the overall success they COULD be having.
I have to admit to being completely uninformed on the world of expay flying, so my question will likely seem naive.
But, isn't CAL ( or any other carrier with a high pilot turnover ) concerned about seeing their training money taking a walk out the door ? And what is the advantage to the company in mistreating pilots, expat or nationals, by creating a demoralizing, deadend environment ?
I do know that everything is driven by money, so perhaps training costs aren't such big a piece of the pie if they are willing to train a constant stream of newhires to accomodate their propensity for poor management policies.
All a bit of a mystery to an outsider. Of course, some US operators are guilty of the same shortsightedness.
But, isn't CAL ( or any other carrier with a high pilot turnover ) concerned about seeing their training money taking a walk out the door ? And what is the advantage to the company in mistreating pilots, expat or nationals, by creating a demoralizing, deadend environment ?
I do know that everything is driven by money, so perhaps training costs aren't such big a piece of the pie if they are willing to train a constant stream of newhires to accomodate their propensity for poor management policies.
All a bit of a mystery to an outsider. Of course, some US operators are guilty of the same shortsightedness.
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Well, it does cost a lot to train a pilot. They get a lot of 300 hour guys from the locals who stay in the right seats for many years. they do wan to promote their own citizens and that is admirable.
However, they know they have to go to the outside because of what is a poor accident record airline. They have decreased accidents and incidents by hiring expats and bringing in expereinced people. And just for the record a LOT of their pilots are excellents however many are not because you have to learn and be taught under the auspices of someone who has the experience. They fly the airplane very conservatively and if they were a US airline paying higher gas prices, they'd burn up the profits just on flying the airplane very slowly.
To wit....In the 400, they start dropping flaps at 17 miles out. If you have not called for Flaps 1 at 17 miles out, the First Officers get very itchly and often apprehesive. They think something is wrong. They have profiles for everything which is good, but Boeing designed profiles as good guidelines under generic conditions. Should you be number one on a clear day with a dry runwya, I wouldn't throw a notch of flaps out until 8 or 9 miles out and that goes for any Boeing bigger than a 727. Actually the 727 could be flown at 250 to the marker and full flaps and land fine VRF. The glass airplanes were better gliders.
But at CAL, if you weren't full configured 10 miles out with power up, people got excited as if you were violating the FOM and Flight Manual. But that is extremely conservative flyng.
Also, very often people got called into the office for the smallest of things and if they didn't like it they got an oral exam and often with a double set of questioners. The theory to effective pilot improvement is counseling and encouragement, and not dicipline.
There were some really nice check airmen that I consider friends. It seemed like the Malaysian crowd and Singapore guys were a good bunch. I remember meeting a great guy from Malaysia on my initial sim check.
But there were a few that beat up on you for taxxing at 12 kts straight ahead because they taxxied like snails rather than following the book. You tolerated them.
I had a line check (they call everything a check ride) and this guy kept me in suspense for a TPE-HKG-TPE and then as we got in, said, "You passed"! Well whoop-de-do! I thought that I guess I did after a handful of type ratings and 22,000 hours and an accident free career. IMost check airman would just watch you one leg and then ask if they could fly the airplane back! Even if he needed two legs, he could have talked to yuo about where you did great (if you did) and where you could improve or tell you that you did a fine job. The confidence goes up a lot when you know you have tried and done well especially in a new environment when you are giving your heart to do a good job in something you like.
Anyway, As I have said, it was a mixed bag. Some good and some bad.
However, they know they have to go to the outside because of what is a poor accident record airline. They have decreased accidents and incidents by hiring expats and bringing in expereinced people. And just for the record a LOT of their pilots are excellents however many are not because you have to learn and be taught under the auspices of someone who has the experience. They fly the airplane very conservatively and if they were a US airline paying higher gas prices, they'd burn up the profits just on flying the airplane very slowly.
To wit....In the 400, they start dropping flaps at 17 miles out. If you have not called for Flaps 1 at 17 miles out, the First Officers get very itchly and often apprehesive. They think something is wrong. They have profiles for everything which is good, but Boeing designed profiles as good guidelines under generic conditions. Should you be number one on a clear day with a dry runwya, I wouldn't throw a notch of flaps out until 8 or 9 miles out and that goes for any Boeing bigger than a 727. Actually the 727 could be flown at 250 to the marker and full flaps and land fine VRF. The glass airplanes were better gliders.
But at CAL, if you weren't full configured 10 miles out with power up, people got excited as if you were violating the FOM and Flight Manual. But that is extremely conservative flyng.
Also, very often people got called into the office for the smallest of things and if they didn't like it they got an oral exam and often with a double set of questioners. The theory to effective pilot improvement is counseling and encouragement, and not dicipline.
There were some really nice check airmen that I consider friends. It seemed like the Malaysian crowd and Singapore guys were a good bunch. I remember meeting a great guy from Malaysia on my initial sim check.
But there were a few that beat up on you for taxxing at 12 kts straight ahead because they taxxied like snails rather than following the book. You tolerated them.
I had a line check (they call everything a check ride) and this guy kept me in suspense for a TPE-HKG-TPE and then as we got in, said, "You passed"! Well whoop-de-do! I thought that I guess I did after a handful of type ratings and 22,000 hours and an accident free career. IMost check airman would just watch you one leg and then ask if they could fly the airplane back! Even if he needed two legs, he could have talked to yuo about where you did great (if you did) and where you could improve or tell you that you did a fine job. The confidence goes up a lot when you know you have tried and done well especially in a new environment when you are giving your heart to do a good job in something you like.
Anyway, As I have said, it was a mixed bag. Some good and some bad.