So, CX called me for the "fast track"
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Midgetboy,
a small flat in Tung Chung will be upwards of 3M HK right now. Tung Chung is one of the cheaper areas to live right now. As far as rent is concerned, I would plan on a minimum of 8k for a 2bd in Tung Chung or 12k for a 3bd. I don't live in Tung Chung. Most CX pilots do not live in Tung Chung. Anywhere else will be substantually more expensive than this. That is a substantial part of your 35k/month salary.
Everyone else- Let me break down your 1st year SO salary for you. I will assume you are married with children because that seems to be the destination for most of us
12k-rent(this is a bare minimum 18k would be more realistic)
4k- helper(there are no teenage girls in HKG so if you ever want any grown-up time this is a requirement not an option)
2k-transportation for 2(this is taking busses everywhere, no cabs)
2k-utilities and phones(maybe a bit of an overestimation)
4k- school for 2 kids (Yes CX does pay an education allowance for local FO's but it will take you5 years or so to get to FO1; JFO's get zero. This will end up being your share as well as the CX allowance is only a subsidy)
3k- groceries
4k- dining out(most people in HK eat out a lot, it is also one of the nicer things about living here)
3k- tax
total: 34k
We have not talked about clothes, your rightchoice insurance contributions, retirement savings, entertainment or any fun things to do with the kids. This looks like a pretty rough first year. How does the rest of the career look?
As an SO you will get an additional 4k/month after each anniversary until 4 years with the company. Your JFO raise will be another 4k. Your next big raise won't come until you are QL'd and become an FO. That will be at least 5 years down the track. So even if you are childless now there is a good chance that you will have a school bill before you hit FO 1 and become eligible for the schooling assistance.
If you have any flying experience you can do much better elsewhere. For those that have none this may still be viable but there are other cadetships out there.
As for those of you who were offerred DESO slots and then held for 2 years and now have been offerred cadet slots; please do not let anybody insult you like that. Go somewhere else if for no other reason than you will be hated here for accepting such an attrocious offer to a qualified expat pilot.
CX has been a good fit for me despite all of the wrenches they have thrown at me, but I would not be here for the current offer. If need be I would still be a CRJ captain back in the states.
Being an expat in Hong Kong on an expat package is great. You get a very good chance to get ahead financially and enjoy this vibrant city. If you come as a local with no ties here on 35k/month, you will be very lonely and bored here because you will not be able to pay to play here. For that matter you will be hard pressed to escape HKG at all to travel as well.
Hopefully, most of you will value yourselves higher and look elsewhere and these clowns will pull their heads out of their rectums but unfortunately I doubt they will.
a small flat in Tung Chung will be upwards of 3M HK right now. Tung Chung is one of the cheaper areas to live right now. As far as rent is concerned, I would plan on a minimum of 8k for a 2bd in Tung Chung or 12k for a 3bd. I don't live in Tung Chung. Most CX pilots do not live in Tung Chung. Anywhere else will be substantually more expensive than this. That is a substantial part of your 35k/month salary.
Everyone else- Let me break down your 1st year SO salary for you. I will assume you are married with children because that seems to be the destination for most of us
12k-rent(this is a bare minimum 18k would be more realistic)
4k- helper(there are no teenage girls in HKG so if you ever want any grown-up time this is a requirement not an option)
2k-transportation for 2(this is taking busses everywhere, no cabs)
2k-utilities and phones(maybe a bit of an overestimation)
4k- school for 2 kids (Yes CX does pay an education allowance for local FO's but it will take you5 years or so to get to FO1; JFO's get zero. This will end up being your share as well as the CX allowance is only a subsidy)
3k- groceries
4k- dining out(most people in HK eat out a lot, it is also one of the nicer things about living here)
3k- tax
total: 34k
We have not talked about clothes, your rightchoice insurance contributions, retirement savings, entertainment or any fun things to do with the kids. This looks like a pretty rough first year. How does the rest of the career look?
As an SO you will get an additional 4k/month after each anniversary until 4 years with the company. Your JFO raise will be another 4k. Your next big raise won't come until you are QL'd and become an FO. That will be at least 5 years down the track. So even if you are childless now there is a good chance that you will have a school bill before you hit FO 1 and become eligible for the schooling assistance.
If you have any flying experience you can do much better elsewhere. For those that have none this may still be viable but there are other cadetships out there.
As for those of you who were offerred DESO slots and then held for 2 years and now have been offerred cadet slots; please do not let anybody insult you like that. Go somewhere else if for no other reason than you will be hated here for accepting such an attrocious offer to a qualified expat pilot.
CX has been a good fit for me despite all of the wrenches they have thrown at me, but I would not be here for the current offer. If need be I would still be a CRJ captain back in the states.
Being an expat in Hong Kong on an expat package is great. You get a very good chance to get ahead financially and enjoy this vibrant city. If you come as a local with no ties here on 35k/month, you will be very lonely and bored here because you will not be able to pay to play here. For that matter you will be hard pressed to escape HKG at all to travel as well.
Hopefully, most of you will value yourselves higher and look elsewhere and these clowns will pull their heads out of their rectums but unfortunately I doubt they will.
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To all those that had been swimming in the DESO pool and have now turned down the offer of the 12 week contract - congratulations on making a decision. It is your decision to make and no one has the right to say whether you have made the right or wrong decision.
But....
I sit here with surprise that you took it upon yourselves to come onto this forum; to not only state what your decision was (no one gives a
may I add) but to also throw a few punches at the system.
Usually I try to make allowance for the constant moaning and crying on pprune. We all need a place to vent our anger and to express our opinions but nonetheless, what really gets up my nose about this current thread is, one, it has provided another feeding frenzy for nasty little trolls such as Cxorcist. He loves dinner time. Which is why he is actually proud that his sentiments have now gone up the scale to being utterly cringeworthy.
Secondly, you swimmers have said no to the offer. So why leave remarks that insults the current crop of wannabee cadets, current cadets, and SOs that were previous cadets? You know nothing about Cathay. Oh no, wait a second. Of course you do. You know everything about Cathay. Because in order to massage your bruised egos, you have turned to Mama Cxorcist's breasts for comfort
. You find comfort in listening to her bedtime stories about how you made the right decision.
If you want to stick two fingers up to Cathay, then thats fine. I do it all the time I'm out of uniform. But it is disgraceful when you come on here and during your rants, insult the hard working cadets. Why on earth would you do that? It is utterly pathetic that in order to express a certain opinion (and hence delude yourself that you are right) on your dislike for the system, insults need to be thrown around and the poor cadet gets it.
This needs to stop.
Right Now
But....
I sit here with surprise that you took it upon yourselves to come onto this forum; to not only state what your decision was (no one gives a
may I add) but to also throw a few punches at the system. Usually I try to make allowance for the constant moaning and crying on pprune. We all need a place to vent our anger and to express our opinions but nonetheless, what really gets up my nose about this current thread is, one, it has provided another feeding frenzy for nasty little trolls such as Cxorcist. He loves dinner time. Which is why he is actually proud that his sentiments have now gone up the scale to being utterly cringeworthy.
Secondly, you swimmers have said no to the offer. So why leave remarks that insults the current crop of wannabee cadets, current cadets, and SOs that were previous cadets? You know nothing about Cathay. Oh no, wait a second. Of course you do. You know everything about Cathay. Because in order to massage your bruised egos, you have turned to Mama Cxorcist's breasts for comfort
. You find comfort in listening to her bedtime stories about how you made the right decision.If you want to stick two fingers up to Cathay, then thats fine. I do it all the time I'm out of uniform. But it is disgraceful when you come on here and during your rants, insult the hard working cadets. Why on earth would you do that? It is utterly pathetic that in order to express a certain opinion (and hence delude yourself that you are right) on your dislike for the system, insults need to be thrown around and the poor cadet gets it.
This needs to stop.
Right Now
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Betpump, always fighting for the "little guy". So, you think it is a.o.k for "cadets" to join on the current offer? Especially people with previous ratings and some with considerable experience? Your CX pride runs a little too deep my friend. Do I like my job at CX? Absolutely, but I am also living a comfortable life while moving swiftly ahead financially. Do you honestly believe that those joining on these conditions will do the same? You need to remove your brushstroked glasses and realize that this offer is an embarrassment to those being offered, and to CX for stooping so low in the recruitment of professional aircrew. Shame on you, and shame on them. 
box
box
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You see DrunknSailor, you were lucky enough to get into the industry early enough to get into the company on a decent pay scale and time period. The major difference between the both of us though, coming from North America, is that I'm much younger allowing me to follow the more Hong Kong route by not having a kid or a dog right now until financially stable. I'm sure if you got into CX a long time ago, that kid would only be 1 right now if you weren't financially stable.
Another thing is, I don't get why people need so much damn space to live in Hong Kong? Just because people are pilots, doesn't mean they can live in 1200 sq foot apartments. Who the hell needs all that space anyways? I currently live in a 500 sq ft apartment in Vancouver, 2 br, and it's more than enough space to get married in and raise a kid if I don't find money to upgrade to a larger place. What's wrong with living in Tung Chung? Besides the ungodly view of CX every morning? The deeper in Hong Kong you live, the harder it'll be to breathe when flying anyways... not to mention, who actually wants to stay living in Hong Kong their whole life as an international cadet? I kinda want to live past 90...
Absolutely nothing wrong with what you said, it's just, well, a lot of cadets don't have strings. If I could, I'd live in a hostel for a year or two... it's not a healthy idea, but obviously if the pay doesn't cover a specific lifestyle, I just won't live it.
The American Dream is a terrible dream, for everyone. How can everyone live the same way Americans do? They can't. (Sorry, I'm a geo major, had to bring that crap up)
Another thing is, I don't get why people need so much damn space to live in Hong Kong? Just because people are pilots, doesn't mean they can live in 1200 sq foot apartments. Who the hell needs all that space anyways? I currently live in a 500 sq ft apartment in Vancouver, 2 br, and it's more than enough space to get married in and raise a kid if I don't find money to upgrade to a larger place. What's wrong with living in Tung Chung? Besides the ungodly view of CX every morning? The deeper in Hong Kong you live, the harder it'll be to breathe when flying anyways... not to mention, who actually wants to stay living in Hong Kong their whole life as an international cadet? I kinda want to live past 90...
Absolutely nothing wrong with what you said, it's just, well, a lot of cadets don't have strings. If I could, I'd live in a hostel for a year or two... it's not a healthy idea, but obviously if the pay doesn't cover a specific lifestyle, I just won't live it.
The American Dream is a terrible dream, for everyone. How can everyone live the same way Americans do? They can't. (Sorry, I'm a geo major, had to bring that crap up)
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And thats the reason terms and conditions are going to ****.
Know what you are worth, know what the job you are doing is worth and it is worth more than what the company are offering if you are an experienced guy considering taking the cadet offer. Yes if you have no experience probably worth it, I would do it if I was 20 and did not have a license.
Know what you are worth, know what the job you are doing is worth and it is worth more than what the company are offering if you are an experienced guy considering taking the cadet offer. Yes if you have no experience probably worth it, I would do it if I was 20 and did not have a license.
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Boxjockey,
The type of nonsense that arrives on this website unfortunately means my reply to posts have a sarcastic edge. How ever one sometimes feels they need to stoop down to the level of other posts.
My complaint here is that many many of our senior guys are so insecure about their future (fair enough Cathay doesn't give you the best confidence or peace of mind) that when they put their point across, they sadly have to throw extra punches that insults and undermines the cadets - those applying, those currently at FTA, and those that are now our SOs. This is completely and utterly unfair.
This leads to our ex-DESO swimmers coming on here ranting and raving about how they have made the heavenly decision not to take up the offer - then deluding themselves that anyone else who takes up the offer is a simpleton. Do they know the circumstances of every single applicant? Has anyone actually talked to a GA guy flying in some god-forsaken hell hole in Scotland or Canada, getting paid sod-all per hour who may actually think that living and working in Hong Kong is actually a good idea?
I will always fight against negativity aimed towards our cadets, whether it be direct or indirectly aimed. The fools amongst you will see this as me being a management bean-counter or some snot-nose pilot with a deep "cx-pride". Wrong. Way wrong.
The type of nonsense that arrives on this website unfortunately means my reply to posts have a sarcastic edge. How ever one sometimes feels they need to stoop down to the level of other posts.
My complaint here is that many many of our senior guys are so insecure about their future (fair enough Cathay doesn't give you the best confidence or peace of mind) that when they put their point across, they sadly have to throw extra punches that insults and undermines the cadets - those applying, those currently at FTA, and those that are now our SOs. This is completely and utterly unfair.
This leads to our ex-DESO swimmers coming on here ranting and raving about how they have made the heavenly decision not to take up the offer - then deluding themselves that anyone else who takes up the offer is a simpleton. Do they know the circumstances of every single applicant? Has anyone actually talked to a GA guy flying in some god-forsaken hell hole in Scotland or Canada, getting paid sod-all per hour who may actually think that living and working in Hong Kong is actually a good idea?
I will always fight against negativity aimed towards our cadets, whether it be direct or indirectly aimed. The fools amongst you will see this as me being a management bean-counter or some snot-nose pilot with a deep "cx-pride". Wrong. Way wrong.
betpump5,
Are you telling the the guys/girls that turn down the offer of a cadet entry that they are wrong?
After being told 2 years or more earlier that they have been accepted as DESO, then to be told that they will only be accepted as local entry (even though they have zero ties and/or family in Hong Kong) is a complete insult.
This is a money saving initiative on behalf of Cathay management, and is aimed at lowering the conditions of all crew.
Just because you have rose coloured glasses on does not mean others are wrong not to accept a poor offer.
The Cathay Cadet system has it's place in helping Hong Kong residents, who would not normal get to work in aviation, attain their dream. To use it as a tool to get low cost expats, especially with significant experience, is wrong.
Are you telling the the guys/girls that turn down the offer of a cadet entry that they are wrong?
After being told 2 years or more earlier that they have been accepted as DESO, then to be told that they will only be accepted as local entry (even though they have zero ties and/or family in Hong Kong) is a complete insult.
This is a money saving initiative on behalf of Cathay management, and is aimed at lowering the conditions of all crew.
Just because you have rose coloured glasses on does not mean others are wrong not to accept a poor offer.
The Cathay Cadet system has it's place in helping Hong Kong residents, who would not normal get to work in aviation, attain their dream. To use it as a tool to get low cost expats, especially with significant experience, is wrong.
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I'm in no position to tell someone else to turn the offer down, or to accept it. Having made my living off aviation for the last decade, I do feel I deserve a bit more than the guy who just got his intro flight done in a 152 though.
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Nobodys putting down cadets. Id have done it myself... 10yrs ago when I was just taking my first intro flight, my total time was 0, and I had no financial obligations other than how to pay for my next training flight.
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Betapump - "This needs to stop. Right Now" Hahahaha Tell me you're joking. It's called P.P.Ru.Ne. So I think rumors, facts, and personal opinions are all fair game here.
+1 to Boxjockey's comments.
I have a few former students (who are HK locals), that entered Cathay as cadets 5 years ago. I supported them and helped them prep for their cadet interviews. It's just not for me with my experience.
I have every right to point out that I'm now being offered a worse job, for about half the compensation, as the job I was offered two years ago.
I have no intent on making any low time pilot feel bad. The cadet program seems great compared to most entry level jobs, but cadets should be aware that this opportunity is significantly lowering the ceiling on their careers.
But I would like any pilot with 5000+ hours who is thinking of taking the pay cut to accept an entry level job to stop and ask themselves what they are worth.
FTP
+1 to Boxjockey's comments.
I have a few former students (who are HK locals), that entered Cathay as cadets 5 years ago. I supported them and helped them prep for their cadet interviews. It's just not for me with my experience.
I have every right to point out that I'm now being offered a worse job, for about half the compensation, as the job I was offered two years ago.
I have no intent on making any low time pilot feel bad. The cadet program seems great compared to most entry level jobs, but cadets should be aware that this opportunity is significantly lowering the ceiling on their careers.
But I would like any pilot with 5000+ hours who is thinking of taking the pay cut to accept an entry level job to stop and ask themselves what they are worth.
FTP
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Housing Allowance
Let me tell you that no housing allowance in Hong Kong is definitely not the norm. And for the record, when I joined Cathay 14 years ago I did not get paid while on course in Adelaide for 6 weeks, we got an allowance of AUD 100. per week. Thankfully for those that came after us the company began to pay S/O wage while you were on course, and so they should. Don't let them convince you that what they are offering is the new norm, as it is not. You can not live in Hong Kong without housing allowance. Full Stop.
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Some background on our Holier than Holy bet(youget)pump(edregularly)5(timesaday)..... Ever done reading of this guy's past and see where he develops these "saviour of the cadet" attitudes? I've cut and pasted this from a previous post of mine having looked back at this smug idiot's previous posts... He constantly turns to personal attack when unable to argue from an informed or logical stance. In other posts he advocates and wants to "punch up" other pilots.
So, to allow others to know this guy's platform (information previous posts. Don't trust me?.... Spend 10 mins and have a good laugh yourself):
1. a guy who went from flying school to 737 because daddy paid for the endorsement and training, then CX as DEFO on the 74F;
2. a guy who advocates the lowered and lowering conditions borne by the cadets in order to allow one group of CX pilots to suffer financial loss so as he sees it, he and others don't have to. After all, someone has to take the hit and it's better it's someone else rather than yourself (again, to quote YOU);
3. a guy who is a member of the AoA advocating for the division of rights and financial reward of some for his own personal gain;
4. a guy who offers cadets words of wisdom from how, what and when to even the role of female pilots at CX;
5. a guy who is so busy feathering his own nest at the expense of others (own admission) that can't wait to throw pure and utter abuse on this forum to anyone with a differing opinion;
6. a guy who admitted to having to change his username in case others discovered who he was and hence retribution due previous (work) history.
So pilots who interviewed 2+ years ago, many with jet time it seems, for DESO positions (respected the SO path) have been spat on and offered a job they did not interview for. They applied, studied and prepared for a job that they were successful in the screening. They were assured phone calls would be received said date. Then GFC, then CX take CEP's on at these well known conditions. They deem this NOT what they are willing to sell their professional souls/skills for.
Kids with little to no time or those who deem this OK are taking the job in droves. But just look at the thread on the questions they are asking help with for their interview: "What do your parents think about you becoming a pilot" .....or....."Doing a GS of 480 kts, how long will it take to travel 18 nm?"
So, one party is allowed their opinion by accepting these downgrading of T's & C's and the other is not by turning them down. That is your stance bet(youget)pump(edregularly)5(timesaday)??
Where do you get off that self righteous arrogant horse? You see yourself as "Defender of the Cadet" all the while your past reeks of the bastardisation of your very own profession. And you have the audacity to wave your AOA membership about! "One of the boys, eh?"
Yes, you can live in HK on the CEP wage. You can even rent an apartment in Sheung Wan for say $8k - $10k per month. It's too small for a couple let alone a family. You can't save for a financially secure future. And no, you WILL NOT enjoy the same lifestyle that the rest of the CX pilots have: something that is nothing more but is LESS than they are actually owed (considering pay increases, etc).
To those who DID NOT contribute to the lowering of our profession: Thank You (from a fellow airline pilot, not at CX but many friends who are or were).
So have an opinion, but don't dare contradict bet(youget)pump(edregularly)5(timesaday)'s opinion or he'll send his daddy's lawyers onto you! (Relax.... the writ will be served on a silver platter and his AOA lanyard attached).
So, to allow others to know this guy's platform (information previous posts. Don't trust me?.... Spend 10 mins and have a good laugh yourself):
1. a guy who went from flying school to 737 because daddy paid for the endorsement and training, then CX as DEFO on the 74F;
2. a guy who advocates the lowered and lowering conditions borne by the cadets in order to allow one group of CX pilots to suffer financial loss so as he sees it, he and others don't have to. After all, someone has to take the hit and it's better it's someone else rather than yourself (again, to quote YOU);
3. a guy who is a member of the AoA advocating for the division of rights and financial reward of some for his own personal gain;
4. a guy who offers cadets words of wisdom from how, what and when to even the role of female pilots at CX;
5. a guy who is so busy feathering his own nest at the expense of others (own admission) that can't wait to throw pure and utter abuse on this forum to anyone with a differing opinion;
6. a guy who admitted to having to change his username in case others discovered who he was and hence retribution due previous (work) history.
So pilots who interviewed 2+ years ago, many with jet time it seems, for DESO positions (respected the SO path) have been spat on and offered a job they did not interview for. They applied, studied and prepared for a job that they were successful in the screening. They were assured phone calls would be received said date. Then GFC, then CX take CEP's on at these well known conditions. They deem this NOT what they are willing to sell their professional souls/skills for.
Kids with little to no time or those who deem this OK are taking the job in droves. But just look at the thread on the questions they are asking help with for their interview: "What do your parents think about you becoming a pilot" .....or....."Doing a GS of 480 kts, how long will it take to travel 18 nm?"
So, one party is allowed their opinion by accepting these downgrading of T's & C's and the other is not by turning them down. That is your stance bet(youget)pump(edregularly)5(timesaday)??
Where do you get off that self righteous arrogant horse? You see yourself as "Defender of the Cadet" all the while your past reeks of the bastardisation of your very own profession. And you have the audacity to wave your AOA membership about! "One of the boys, eh?"
Yes, you can live in HK on the CEP wage. You can even rent an apartment in Sheung Wan for say $8k - $10k per month. It's too small for a couple let alone a family. You can't save for a financially secure future. And no, you WILL NOT enjoy the same lifestyle that the rest of the CX pilots have: something that is nothing more but is LESS than they are actually owed (considering pay increases, etc).
To those who DID NOT contribute to the lowering of our profession: Thank You (from a fellow airline pilot, not at CX but many friends who are or were).
So have an opinion, but don't dare contradict bet(youget)pump(edregularly)5(timesaday)'s opinion or he'll send his daddy's lawyers onto you! (Relax.... the writ will be served on a silver platter and his AOA lanyard attached).
