Why I knocked back Cathay
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Turbine100, what's the point in not attending Stage 1? They aren't offering you the job? It's very valuable airline interview experience, then if you get through you get a nice trip out to Hong Kong for more interview experience? Then you might even get a trip to Australia for some free flying.. After all that you don't have to accept their offer so I don't see your mentality in just rejecting the Stage 1 offer outright?
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Hi!
A good reason he might not want even to bother with Cathay is that he can spend the time finding a better job somewhere else.
The Cathay plan of no FOs and no housing made sense to them a year or so ago. In another year, they won't be doing it.
Just saw an ad for 747-400 DECs, who are NOT type rated. Hadn't seen much of that in the past two years.
The pilot shortage is just getting cranked up, and the HR dept employees will be ready to shoot themselves in a couple of years!
cliff
AMS
A good reason he might not want even to bother with Cathay is that he can spend the time finding a better job somewhere else.
The Cathay plan of no FOs and no housing made sense to them a year or so ago. In another year, they won't be doing it.
Just saw an ad for 747-400 DECs, who are NOT type rated. Hadn't seen much of that in the past two years.
The pilot shortage is just getting cranked up, and the HR dept employees will be ready to shoot themselves in a couple of years!
cliff
AMS
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Hi nmcpilot
I am only asking the obvious questions based on what I have read and everyone has differing personal circumstances.
Housing allowance is removed when I know Hong Kong is expensive.
Training in Australia for potentially another license. I already have a commercial license. Since I originally applied, now fly for a small AOC at the bottom but doing public transport and have a lot more hours. Therefore I would like to understand why they dont allow you to convert directly to a Hong Kong license when meeting the ICAO / Hong Kong CAA requirements for a straight conversation and then type rating.
I would rather have a full type rating and not P2X as it could potentially have the inability to move easily in the future.
Lastly, if you were going to stay as a second officer for years. This clearly affects unfreezing an ATPL, salary and how long will it take to move to FO,SFO, command or wanting to move into training roles within an operator.
I am only asking the obvious questions based on what I have read and everyone has differing personal circumstances.
Housing allowance is removed when I know Hong Kong is expensive.
Training in Australia for potentially another license. I already have a commercial license. Since I originally applied, now fly for a small AOC at the bottom but doing public transport and have a lot more hours. Therefore I would like to understand why they dont allow you to convert directly to a Hong Kong license when meeting the ICAO / Hong Kong CAA requirements for a straight conversation and then type rating.
I would rather have a full type rating and not P2X as it could potentially have the inability to move easily in the future.
Lastly, if you were going to stay as a second officer for years. This clearly affects unfreezing an ATPL, salary and how long will it take to move to FO,SFO, command or wanting to move into training roles within an operator.
Last edited by turbine100; 13th Jan 2011 at 16:27.
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Turbine100,
You wrote, "Therefore I would like to understand why they dont allow you to convert directly to a Hong Kong license when meeting the ICAO / Hong Kong CAA requirements for a straight conversation and then type rating.
I would rather have a full type rating and not P2X as it could potentially have the inability to move easily in the future."
You answered your own question there. CX is an airline that likes to control things. They control our bidding, our a/c choice, our rosters with Reserve, A, and O days, etc. By not giving you a higher rating, it gives them much greater control over you by not giving you the flexibility to advance your career if need be. If they give you the higher rating, you can easily leave when you figure out CX isn't for you.
You wrote, "Therefore I would like to understand why they dont allow you to convert directly to a Hong Kong license when meeting the ICAO / Hong Kong CAA requirements for a straight conversation and then type rating.
I would rather have a full type rating and not P2X as it could potentially have the inability to move easily in the future."
You answered your own question there. CX is an airline that likes to control things. They control our bidding, our a/c choice, our rosters with Reserve, A, and O days, etc. By not giving you a higher rating, it gives them much greater control over you by not giving you the flexibility to advance your career if need be. If they give you the higher rating, you can easily leave when you figure out CX isn't for you.
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Yes I can understand where you are coming from with that aspect of it, I am also an experienced pilot. What I mean is, I don't see the point in turning down the opportunity for interview experience with an airline... It will be fairly similar to any future airline interviews you have...
The argument in the post before you saying you could be applying to other airlines in the mean time, yes you could but right now airlines aren't currently rushing to anyones door looking to recruit you, the Stage 1 interview is 8:30 - 1300 in London, so it's half a day.. Don't see the point in turning it down?
If you get through then it's a free holiday in hong kong for you and if you're married your wife... That is I agree a bit more time consuming and could maybe understand you rejecting the offer to go there if work didn't permit but really don't see the point in turning it down.
Aswell you might want to consider that reading one thread on PPrune then deciding it's not for you is a bit hasty...
Tis up to you what you do at the end of the day, but hope you can somewhat see where I am coming from...
The argument in the post before you saying you could be applying to other airlines in the mean time, yes you could but right now airlines aren't currently rushing to anyones door looking to recruit you, the Stage 1 interview is 8:30 - 1300 in London, so it's half a day.. Don't see the point in turning it down?
If you get through then it's a free holiday in hong kong for you and if you're married your wife... That is I agree a bit more time consuming and could maybe understand you rejecting the offer to go there if work didn't permit but really don't see the point in turning it down.
Aswell you might want to consider that reading one thread on PPrune then deciding it's not for you is a bit hasty...
Tis up to you what you do at the end of the day, but hope you can somewhat see where I am coming from...
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And your point about affect ability to move easily in the future. Yes if you were offered the position with Cathay at the end of it then yes you have to accept that you are there for the long term.. But I think you're jumping the gun a bit here no? That's like jumping into bed with a girl and saying the next morning "so when are we going to get married then?" 
I'm saying go for the interview because you might find it goes really badly and you see areas you can improve on for future interviews! Or could give you more confidence, you don't have to take the job if they offer it..
I'm saying go for the interview because you might find it goes really badly and you see areas you can improve on for future interviews! Or could give you more confidence, you don't have to take the job if they offer it..
nmcpilot......completely agree.
Don't stress if they can't see you point, their loss.
Job application does not equal Job offer.
There is no Yes/No decision to make until the contract is in front of you.
Don't stress if they can't see you point, their loss.
Job application does not equal Job offer.
There is no Yes/No decision to make until the contract is in front of you.
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LOL..
I didn't read your whole post but I also know very Senior Capt.s, FO's and SO's in the Airline. Some of what you have said is true but some not so. EG. 'you get put into a 3 star hotel', well the CX crew at where Iam stay in the Hilton or Hyatt hows are they 3 star?
End of the day if you are doing it for the money and a good lifestyle as I sense from your minor summary. Go into development or trading and not flying. Then with the money you make you can travel the world and be a frequent flyer.
As I said I agree with some of your points but not all and deff have another answer for the points I dont agree with.
Good luck on your future endeavours.
I didn't read your whole post but I also know very Senior Capt.s, FO's and SO's in the Airline. Some of what you have said is true but some not so. EG. 'you get put into a 3 star hotel', well the CX crew at where Iam stay in the Hilton or Hyatt hows are they 3 star?
End of the day if you are doing it for the money and a good lifestyle as I sense from your minor summary. Go into development or trading and not flying. Then with the money you make you can travel the world and be a frequent flyer.
As I said I agree with some of your points but not all and deff have another answer for the points I dont agree with.
Good luck on your future endeavours.
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I guess the wait is over, and so is my CX job
Will not be accepting, kids and wife can live much better in Canada than on this package.
Great interview experience
Trip to Hong Kong was A-1.
I feel very sorry for the great HR people that have to make these offers, a really great bunch of Ladies
Take care Fragrant Harbour.
Will not be accepting, kids and wife can live much better in Canada than on this package.
Great interview experience
Trip to Hong Kong was A-1.
I feel very sorry for the great HR people that have to make these offers, a really great bunch of Ladies
Take care Fragrant Harbour.
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OK, so Ive been in the hold pool since 2008 and just got the email regarding the new offer. Im having some trouble figuring out the document so Im hoping for some help...
The last offer I got was for cadet wages and no housing allowance and they got a resounding no from me. I did the math on this one and it seems like theyre offering about 6 grand US a month?? Sounds better no? Or am I missing something?
Whats the forgivable loan thing?? Is that really still necessary?
Im assuming youll still be an SO for about 4 years??
Any thoughts?
The last offer I got was for cadet wages and no housing allowance and they got a resounding no from me. I did the math on this one and it seems like theyre offering about 6 grand US a month?? Sounds better no? Or am I missing something?
Whats the forgivable loan thing?? Is that really still necessary?
Im assuming youll still be an SO for about 4 years??
Any thoughts?
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Also on hold since 2008.
I have many friends at CX and have all the CoS paperwork to compare what they are offering us against what we were told we would be offered. In a nutshell, it's about 1/3 of the package we should have been offered.
The devil is in the details. The housing allowance: not marked against fluctuations in the housing market in HKG as the others have. The "forgivable loan"... Now would you take out ANY loan without knowing the entire [legal] details? Is it taxable? Is it paid in full or month by month for how long? Is it paid in cash? Too many variables and to me it's code for "bond" that is illegal in HKG hence tarted up to be different. In the pre-interview presentation we were told that CX offer the (original) housing allowance as they firmly believe expats coming to HK should not suffer a loss of lifestyle in their move. Seems they don't quite believe that anymore. Funny how a record breaking profit can change opinions.
And the interview: So we have to reinterview to a far, FAR higher standard than these CEP's did only to be sat next them in ADL for 3 months? A rule for them and a rule for us? And did the CEPS have to fly a 747 Classic on raw data, no FD's or AT from Kai Tak, following the backcourse, OEI procedures, etc, etc. The DESO's of yesterday went to AD for approx 28 days, even those without ATP's / ATPL's but now "we" need 3 months?
And what of seniority? We'll have a number lower than a kid with ZERO flying hours. Potentially never getting a Cmd (depending on your age of course. Latest AOA figures suggest 18-25 years from memory, ie the AOA updates my friends send me. Correct me if I'm wrong). How does that make you feel?
$35,170 per month is dependent on flying (loose term) 84 hrs a month. My understanding is that you will very, very rarely make beds or eat sandwiches this much as SO: typically 70 hrs a month. (Someone confirm? This is what my friends tell me). So for every hour worked under 84 hrs per month = $3,517 LESS per month from $35,170. Now....reduce that again by a ballpark 15% for tax. Buy an apartment then the housing allowance just became taxable as well.
"Discretionary Bonus" of 13th month pay became the norm when management decided that the 13th month bonus was interpreted by them as a pay rise and hence they were not obliged to pay it: and so they didn't and won't if at their "discretion" they don't feel like it. The AOA fought this and lost. BUT! If you are in management then you'll receive a bonus even when you are caught for price fixing or screwing up the fuel hedging costing the airline MILLIONS. Go figure. Check out other threads on the bonuses these guys give themselves.
Those in upper management making these decisions have ruined a once great, once the best airline in the world. Legacy? Wow... they'll receive HUGE bonuses for what they've done. How proud they must be to destroy something that was regarded as so great. If you've seen what CX has become over the past 3-5 years then you'll know what they are capable of.
The HR team have been nothing but absolutely pleasure to deal with over the last (very nearly!) 3 years. Thank you.
We each must make our own decision. Trust me there are FAR better jobs out there if you search. We deserve what we interviewed for. Anything less is an insult.
For me, it's a DEFINITE NO WAY. It's not the money. It's the integrity of the once great airline that has no integrity what's so ever to have treated us & it's present pilot body the way they have. I've worked too hard to be treated like this. I won't be wasting their time or mine to sit in a Godforsaken uncomfortable as hell A330 Y class bucket seat for xx hours to be told my value as a pilot is worth only 30% of what it was (nearly) 3 years ago. After all, this is aviation and there'll be a kid praying I don't take the offer so he/she can do it for less anyway.
Pay bananas you get monkeys.
I have many friends at CX and have all the CoS paperwork to compare what they are offering us against what we were told we would be offered. In a nutshell, it's about 1/3 of the package we should have been offered.
The devil is in the details. The housing allowance: not marked against fluctuations in the housing market in HKG as the others have. The "forgivable loan"... Now would you take out ANY loan without knowing the entire [legal] details? Is it taxable? Is it paid in full or month by month for how long? Is it paid in cash? Too many variables and to me it's code for "bond" that is illegal in HKG hence tarted up to be different. In the pre-interview presentation we were told that CX offer the (original) housing allowance as they firmly believe expats coming to HK should not suffer a loss of lifestyle in their move. Seems they don't quite believe that anymore. Funny how a record breaking profit can change opinions.
And the interview: So we have to reinterview to a far, FAR higher standard than these CEP's did only to be sat next them in ADL for 3 months? A rule for them and a rule for us? And did the CEPS have to fly a 747 Classic on raw data, no FD's or AT from Kai Tak, following the backcourse, OEI procedures, etc, etc. The DESO's of yesterday went to AD for approx 28 days, even those without ATP's / ATPL's but now "we" need 3 months?
And what of seniority? We'll have a number lower than a kid with ZERO flying hours. Potentially never getting a Cmd (depending on your age of course. Latest AOA figures suggest 18-25 years from memory, ie the AOA updates my friends send me. Correct me if I'm wrong). How does that make you feel?
$35,170 per month is dependent on flying (loose term) 84 hrs a month. My understanding is that you will very, very rarely make beds or eat sandwiches this much as SO: typically 70 hrs a month. (Someone confirm? This is what my friends tell me). So for every hour worked under 84 hrs per month = $3,517 LESS per month from $35,170. Now....reduce that again by a ballpark 15% for tax. Buy an apartment then the housing allowance just became taxable as well.
"Discretionary Bonus" of 13th month pay became the norm when management decided that the 13th month bonus was interpreted by them as a pay rise and hence they were not obliged to pay it: and so they didn't and won't if at their "discretion" they don't feel like it. The AOA fought this and lost. BUT! If you are in management then you'll receive a bonus even when you are caught for price fixing or screwing up the fuel hedging costing the airline MILLIONS. Go figure. Check out other threads on the bonuses these guys give themselves.
Those in upper management making these decisions have ruined a once great, once the best airline in the world. Legacy? Wow... they'll receive HUGE bonuses for what they've done. How proud they must be to destroy something that was regarded as so great. If you've seen what CX has become over the past 3-5 years then you'll know what they are capable of.
The HR team have been nothing but absolutely pleasure to deal with over the last (very nearly!) 3 years. Thank you.
We each must make our own decision. Trust me there are FAR better jobs out there if you search. We deserve what we interviewed for. Anything less is an insult.
For me, it's a DEFINITE NO WAY. It's not the money. It's the integrity of the once great airline that has no integrity what's so ever to have treated us & it's present pilot body the way they have. I've worked too hard to be treated like this. I won't be wasting their time or mine to sit in a Godforsaken uncomfortable as hell A330 Y class bucket seat for xx hours to be told my value as a pilot is worth only 30% of what it was (nearly) 3 years ago. After all, this is aviation and there'll be a kid praying I don't take the offer so he/she can do it for less anyway.
Pay bananas you get monkeys.
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I too interviewed for DESO in 08, just finished reading through it.
This forgivable loan is a bit peculiar.
“Those who only require Transition Training will spend approximately HK$220,000 and the remaining HK$880,000 will be made available to the Officer.
This forgivable loan will be deemed to have been repaid through 6 years of continuous service.”
This sounds kind of like an end of service gratuity, except it comes at the beginning. Do you guys have the same interpretation? Of course it is also implied that if you leave prior to 6 years you must pay-back the loan. HK880,000 (113,000USD) up front is a good incentive, but it’s probably not as much as one would gain from the initially offered housing allowance scheme. The package I received back in 08 stated that I would receive from HK14,000 up to 26,000, and after two years, 18,000 up to a maximum of 50,000. I suspect the wide range was due to fluctuations in rental rates, but this was never explained. Please correct me if wrong, but I estimate that I would have been paid somewhere between HK1,400,000 and 2,400,000 in housing allowance over the course of 6 years, without considering tax.
Under the new scheme of HK10,000 a month, and assuming at least 5 years as a SO
, and then maybe 1 years as JFO, that would equal 720,000, plus what’s left of the forgivable allowance (880,000) would amount to 1,600,000 after 6 years. I guess the idea here is to use the loan to supplement the reduced housing allowance until getting upgraded to FO, assuming the higher FO salary would adequately compensate.
The new package states that the FO (first year, I guess) basic monthly salary is HK72,270, does anybody know if this is a significant increase from before?
Still sounds like quite a financial stretch knowing how expensive that city is.
CF
This forgivable loan is a bit peculiar.
“Those who only require Transition Training will spend approximately HK$220,000 and the remaining HK$880,000 will be made available to the Officer.
This forgivable loan will be deemed to have been repaid through 6 years of continuous service.”
This sounds kind of like an end of service gratuity, except it comes at the beginning. Do you guys have the same interpretation? Of course it is also implied that if you leave prior to 6 years you must pay-back the loan. HK880,000 (113,000USD) up front is a good incentive, but it’s probably not as much as one would gain from the initially offered housing allowance scheme. The package I received back in 08 stated that I would receive from HK14,000 up to 26,000, and after two years, 18,000 up to a maximum of 50,000. I suspect the wide range was due to fluctuations in rental rates, but this was never explained. Please correct me if wrong, but I estimate that I would have been paid somewhere between HK1,400,000 and 2,400,000 in housing allowance over the course of 6 years, without considering tax.
Under the new scheme of HK10,000 a month, and assuming at least 5 years as a SO
, and then maybe 1 years as JFO, that would equal 720,000, plus what’s left of the forgivable allowance (880,000) would amount to 1,600,000 after 6 years. I guess the idea here is to use the loan to supplement the reduced housing allowance until getting upgraded to FO, assuming the higher FO salary would adequately compensate.The new package states that the FO (first year, I guess) basic monthly salary is HK72,270, does anybody know if this is a significant increase from before?
Still sounds like quite a financial stretch knowing how expensive that city is.
CF