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Cathay Pacific Cadet Pilot Programme

South Asia and Far East Wannabes A forum for those applying to Cathay Pacific, Dragonair or any other Hong Kong-based airline or operator. Use this area for both Direct Entry Pilot and Cadet-scheme queries.

Cathay Pacific Cadet Pilot Programme

Old 11th Nov 2011, 06:04
  #3361 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Planet Earth, mostly
Posts: 438
What goes up also goes down

Interesting link CB

It seems HK rents can go DOWN as well as up. Who would have thought it? According to your link rents fell 25% in 2008/9, and from 2008 to 2010 there was still a net decline despite a 22% increase in 2009/10.

Hong Kong has witnessed some of the biggest price increases in the world, reflected in a jump up the ranking from 9th to 3rd position over the year. The price of renting two-bedroom accommodation rose by 22% to US$2 830 a month between 2009 and 2010. This contrasts with rent falls of around 25% the previous year.
You're really pulling at straws to try to differ CPI with rental costs. I suppose GDP has little to do with living standards or interest rates on consumer confidence??
You seem very confused about economics. CPI and rental rates are quite different. The rate of change in GDP does indeed have very limited correlation with interest rates or consumer confidence. Absolute level of GDP is of course quite unrelated.

Last edited by etrang; 11th Nov 2011 at 06:30.
etrang is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2011, 09:27
  #3362 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 4
after the ICAO assessment, normally, how long does an applicant wait for the call? (next stage or rejection)
rororo123456 is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2011, 13:02
  #3363 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 69
Can the reduced mortgage rate CX offer be used to buy an overseas property? Or does it have to be used on a HK property? Interested to know.
BaronBlue is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2011, 14:26
  #3364 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Asia
Age: 52
Posts: 2,588
etrang
You seem very confused about economics. CPI and rental rates are quite different.
It would also appear you are confused as to the relationship of rental prices (a component of housing costs) which is a major component of the Market Basket of consumer goods and services and the CPI (inflation).
It seems HK rents can go DOWN as well as up. Who would have thought it? According to your link rents fell 25% in 2008/9, and from 2008 to 2010 there was still a net decline despite a 22% increase in 2009/10.
You sit here and accuse CB of cherry picking housing rental figures but you are guilty of exactly the same thing. The fall in rental figures you quote occurred during the Global Financial Crisis which is hardly representative of long term rental trends. The reality is that rental rates in Hong Kong from 1999 to 2009 increased by 13% according to official HK government figures. Since 2009 rental rates have increased a further 22%. That represents a 37.86% rise in rental prices since 1999.

Voiceofreason
Do you even know what happened? Basically, nothing.
BS nothing happened. CX B744BCF's were gifted to AHK rather than be wet leased to them which was the past practice.
Yes, it was a while since the last increase, but we ended up getting another.
Speak for yourself sunshine. I got zip. The last payrise I got was in 2001. How about your ask an A scaler how many payrises they have had since 1993.
404 Titan is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2011, 06:26
  #3365 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: London
Posts: 66
Apologies for taking the thread off-topic, has anyone attended a stage 2 recently. Care to share your experiences?
goaround737 is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2011, 07:12
  #3366 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Not for Sale
Posts: 331
eTraing - as per most on this thread, read & completely comprehend before activating foot-in-mouth. To deny rental prices have trended nothing but up in HK over the recent history and will do so in the future is just dumb in the face of all the evidence & data. Same with you, refer to the Mark Twain Quote.

Voice - you have obviously shown your "company man" approach to this issue. You are tainted by your cadetship background as a HK National: coming from zero experience (correct me if I'm wrong) & without receiving a housing package. Hence you defend the slap-in-the-face increase & CEP in general. You use your history & background as the basis to argue. Likewise, I use mine as I have freely admitted many times.

Now, I fully admit that none of my other benefits are linked in any way to the CPI or any other COLA index or similar. But then, I don't see very many other companies, let alone airlines, actually have a pay which varies according to cost of living.
Really? That unknown company is called "CATHAY PACIFIC" and you will find it in the "Accommodation & Rental Assistance Policy" paragraph 4.4. You are playing semantics. The rent one pays is a direct impact on one's "cost of living", so call a spade a spade, and not a "digging tool" to try to smooch more company-man points.

To make assumptions based on some back-of-a-fag packet calculations using stats and figures you selectively include to make your point reeks of bloody-mindedness and over-simplicity. Of course you can have an idea of what the package is worth RIGHT NOW. I assume you would also factor in CPI in any other pay offers too, therefore reducing it's worth in the future? To not do so would surely be misleading?
a) I do not ever consider myself using the back of fags as you eloquently put. (I just thought it fun to play with semantics, as you choose to).
b) The figures I used & you ridicule are based on the exact same figures you have & also provided. The variables of time frame & percentage change in the rental market costs I also freely admitted to be a loose ball-park figure. You claim it impossible to look into the future to try to predict financial affects. That is your choice to throw your head in the sand. But to not look into financial histories and futures based on that history, the present market climate as well as a resultant future prediction is just stupid. I though more of you than to argue from such an irrational point.
c) Of course I would factor CPI into any other pay offers. I do not invest in share portfolios in Zimbabwe because of the out of control inflation. Ooops! Am I trying to mindlessly predict the future based on the very recent past, present & future? How silly of me! Am I misleading myself for using some minimal research & appreciation of the financial climate in Zimbabwe? Come on feller - get a grip and be honest with yourself.

You obviously seem to believe that CX management are great guys & wish to bank on them improving remuneration instead of actively seeking ways to drive them down. Have you read Warham's book? He could not of written what he did if they were not completely true for fear of litigation. But for incredibly hard fought efforts & threats of CC to just keep base salaries in line with CPI, you seem to think CX management will just do this out of a matter of course from time to time?? 404Titan's words should ring home - unless you also decide to ignore those facts or taint them by some other means.

denigrate CX's standards
Eh? I merely commented on CX's reduction of FFS training for (CEP) SO's that has reduced from 12 to now only 6 as I understand it. What other airlines do was never bought into comment. My point is that CX has lowered it standards in recruitment & training for nothing but GREED. So, are 12 x FFS better than 6 for training a kid with nothing but a fresh CPL? Are 12 FFS's more expensive that just 6? Again Voice, you need to get real about what your airline is doing & not seek back-slapping justification of "but at other airlines...". Saying that "at other airlines" they do this or that does not negate the fact that CX's own standards have been reduced. Again - wake up!

And there we have it - we finally get to the core of the issue. You are personally upset that the goalposts have changed. CX has widened the net to attract more people into the industry, and you are saddened because you are no longer one of the "privileged few" (I use that term loosely, so don't go overboard in criticising me for it) who gets invited for a DESO interview.
No mate - you understate the movement of the goalposts. They have been made so wide that a blind person in a wheelchair facing the wrong direction could kick a goal and feel "entitled" to do so. And you think that makes a person "privileged"! It took experience, knowledge, study & discipline to kick the goals in the former game that was being played. Previous to this discussion, I thought more of you. I thought you could argue with substance. I over estimated you. My time in GA was nothing special but for teaching respect for the industry and fellow pilots. And I will go to town on you for the term you used. The likes of you feel that the efforts other guys went through to get where we wanted to be is worthless. You think we deemed ourselves as "the privileged few". No. We deem ourselves as EARNING the privilege to join and contribute to aviation. Nowadays those with the experience that CX used to attract rarely apply and in fact turn CX down. There is a reason for that if you would only choose to open your damn eyes. Are you trying to tell me that if pilots with the experience that used to make them competitive for a DESO job applied today that these kids with zero hours, zero credentials & zero experience could compete? There is a reason they are being interviewed. They are the result of those with experience, credentials & hours not applying or taking the job. They are the CHEAPEST OPTION, not the best candidates in the market. These kids are the product of lower standards in recruitment born by an insulting remuneration package to those who know what airline pilots are worth. They are what's left from others turning it down or not applying.

Can you seriously blame the guys going for it?
Yes. Generally speaking they detract from the industry, not contribute to it by this entry means.

If it's no longer as tiresomely difficult to get in, how, again, is that your problem?
Let me replace "tiresomely difficult" to what those of us who once sat CX on a pedestal as "privileged to be considered". My problem? With your polarised view of CX's greatness, you refuse to see a bigger picture. You don't think other airlines see CX for what it was & what they are doing now? Personally I've had many cockpit conversations as well as layover bar chats with other pilots about CX's massive backward steps. And before you try, no:- not all conversations were started by me. Some of the most outspoken have been CX crews themselves. It is the problem of all airline pilots when they see their job and career spat on by greed and ignorance from airline management as well as new joiners alike. You on the other hand prefer to sit pretty & defend it, because in your eyes YOU are better off (naively so), despite the long term airline and industry effects of this behaviour.

What you were saying, however (or at least how it seemed) was that the entry level standard of cadets has been lowered. I dispute this wholeheartedly.
You're so very wrong. The ONLY avenue for ANY applicant to CX is via the CEP. A kid with zero hours is a cadet as is an applicant with 10,000 hrs as PIC of widebody jets. So by CX's deliberate default of course the entry level standards have been lowered!! Put your money where your mouth is. Let's put the average iCadet interviewee in the 747 Classic sim and get them to perform the entire sequence on raw data, taking off from Kai Tak, tracking outbound via the backcourse, climbing/descending turns onto VOR & ADF radials & bearings, engine failures and raw data ILS to go-around, then land. If standards have not been lowered, then what's the problem? That was the minimum standards "we privileged few" had to deal with as opposed to "What do your parents think about you becoming a pilot?" Still dispute this wholeheartedly bearing in mind that ALL new joiners to CX are "cadets" now??

You seem to be both attacking those who are making the offer (CX) and those who choose to accept it.
Yes. What's your point? Greedy & immoral management as well as those condoning it by acceptance.

This is a business transaction defined by market economics.
What a defeatist load of BS. How did CX management by the likes of TT and now JS or that chief pilot sell-out RH adapt their own salary packages by market economics? They cut new joiner remuneration & as a result receive massive bonuses. That is not market economics. That is sheer and unadulterated GREED. CX's record profits came prior to the CEP taking any form of affect to their bottom line. Again, remove your head from management's sand pit.

They make the choice they feel is right for them. It is egotistical in the extreme for you to assume that you know their needs/wants better than they do.
As the overwhelming evidence proves, nearly every CEP hopeful on this thread shows little to NO knowledge of the job they seek, nor has the minimal desire to read about it first, let alone seek first hand clarification from the source. The right choice for them is, by admittance recently, due a feeling of "entitlement" or that other paths are "too hard" despite never even trying. You personally condone this because you personally came from the CX HK National cadet scheme. I have NEVER mentioned or laid claim to know what is better for them. I KNOW what is better for the industry or what will make them better pilots, or even pilots with some iota of credibility.

Last edited by ChinaBeached; 12th Nov 2011 at 07:54.
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Old 12th Nov 2011, 08:54
  #3367 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: DRC/Lanseria
Posts: 108
goaorund737 why are you apologising?

It has become more of an entertaining 1st year economics lecture. While it is quite interesting, it is becoming more a clash of heads between already employed or previously employed CX crew over what affects the rental rates etc etc. With all due resect gentlemen, it has become tiresome to read and extremely technical, most of which I dont believe many will understand or care to read anyway!

In threads previously, it also seems that a few players are taking constant digs at eachother just for the sake of it, pulling each others sentences apart time and time again to prove a point, very seldom admitting they are wrong, thus it looks like there will be no end to the arguments. Maybe it deserves its own thread then?! I personally do not think any of it is contributing to the subject of this thread AT ALL!

The apology by goaround737 to ask a direct question about the programme (which was ignored completely, whether it was a repeated question or not) is clear evidence of this...I dont think thats really fair.

Again, with all due respect, thus please treat me with the same respect.
CharlieVictorSierra is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2011, 09:34
  #3368 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Not for Sale
Posts: 331
CVS - the terms & conditions are technical in nature & very few if any iCadet hopeful has tried to seek any knowledge of them, let alone listen to both sides of the debate. Let's see if in the next 5 pages we get another "How do I update my file" or "How long does it take....." or "what is the salary / housing allowance / time as SO, etc...."

This argument is extremely well placed on this thread.

I have admitted I have been wrong in previous posts and apologised when it has been pointed out.

Not contributing to the thread?? How so?? You'll find find that nearly every question asked has been asked countless times previously. Those asking just can't be bothered to read - and yes there is a lot of sifting to be done, as with any research. But if this "passion" is there as they claim then a few hours shouldn't hurt? Least of all a direct call to CX!!!???

If this "argument" has done anything I trust it highlights the emotions this iCadet program evokes, the detriment to the airline industry it makes as well as the long term ramifications of one's decision to join CX under these terms.

Tiresome & extremely technical? welcome to long haul flying.
ChinaBeached is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2011, 09:47
  #3369 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Future
Posts: 23
stage 2/3

goaround737 and glassjacket

i am just arrived back home from stage 2/3 it was a good experience, mostly friendly staff exept one who was rude. Mine interview was general same as the ones previous posted except the order they were in. Technical question is hardest part for me, but i studied good to answer most question with confident. The HR side was easy just usual why do you want to fly for us crap etc etc. You can prepare for most of parts the interviews but not all of. I am not bother to write same things. Look back at tech/HR questions posted before it was similar to those.

CharlieVictorSierra

No it all makes sense to me and interest me to see what everyone in this has to say. I am learnt recently that its good to have other opinions rather than same agreement nobody is lean anything from that. Having that said, i am agree with the likes of CB and 404-titan. That is why this CP is means to end for me if am get offered. Voice you are "entitled" to your own opinion.. even if you are wrong pal!

CX-A330
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Old 12th Nov 2011, 17:37
  #3370 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Newark
Posts: 10
stage 2

I have my stage 2 next week and I on my itinerary, there is no mention of sim check. Are Cx still doing a sim check for the advanced applicants (280 hrs) or has this been scrapped?

Regards
Wannaberightseat is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2011, 17:44
  #3371 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: up here, everyone looks like ants!
Posts: 956
Rightseat

All intermediate and advanced applicants do a sim check.

BTW with 280 hours, you're "intermediate", 30+ weeks course.

At the end of the day, you're still selling out, and the Cathay Pacific you aspire to will NOT be the one you may eventually join.

Grow a pair and walk away from this insult. You deserve better.
Cpt. Underpants is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2011, 17:55
  #3372 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: London
Posts: 66
CharlieVictorSierra,

haha, no admittedly the apology was with a measure of sarcasm!

Nevertheless, i am thankful to the guys like Chinabeached who take the time to post and to fill us in on the pitfalls of the icadet course and what to expect in HK. At least there will be no surprises further down the line. Having weighed all of their feedback up, and with all the negative aspects to the contract/life in mind, Iím still not put off.

CX-A330

Iíve read all the previous posts, quite interested in what areas they concentrated on with you? I will PM you in a moment!

Wannaberightseat

I have roughly the same experience as you, i havenít been given a sim session either. i believe this was sacked off in favour of flight grading some time ago, as were the computerised tests like the slalom etc (hasnít appeared on my itinerary anyway)
goaround737 is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2011, 21:25
  #3373 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Newark
Posts: 10
sim

Thanks for all your posts.

As for all the positive and negative points on this forum (and yes, I have read all of them), I would still jump at the opportunity should Cathay offer me a position. No doubt a select few will tell me i'm mad and shouldn;t go for it. Sorry, its my choice and I have made it.

For the sim, when I was on stage 1, there were 4 guys on stage 2/3 and they did have the sim check which is why I was unsure when it didn't show on my itinerary. So, conflicting replies from Capt Underpants and Goaround737.

Has anybody been to Stage 2/3 in the last couple of weeks? If so, can you post if you did have the sim check please.

Regards
Wannaberightseat is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2011, 21:29
  #3374 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: up here, everyone looks like ants!
Posts: 956
rightseat PM for you
Cpt. Underpants is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2011, 21:34
  #3375 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Sky
Posts: 444
A few years ago Flight Training Adelaide provided a training to become a commercial pilot, working 3yrs as an instructor for FTA and then join CX as a SO. For this training there was no selection stages or things like that. Maybe some tests before the training but not after. Does this course still exist?
captain.weird is online now  
Old 12th Nov 2011, 22:39
  #3376 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: up here, everyone looks like ants!
Posts: 956
Weird, that program has to be the albatross of disgrace on this whole wannabes program:

No, it's no longer offered. Why not?

CX reneged on its contract that HAD BEEN SIGNED AND AGREED TO BY THE COMPANY AND THE PROSPECTS.

CX tore them up. Yes, just like that. It's newest employees were told that there was a new contract and if they wanted to work for CX, these were the new T&C. No expat conditions (as contractually agreed), no housing (as contractually agreed) and yes, you can try and sue, but there will be no job for you if you try.
Cpt. Underpants is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2011, 22:56
  #3377 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Newark
Posts: 10
pm

Capt Underpants. you have a PM
Wannaberightseat is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2011, 06:06
  #3378 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Taking a snooze
Posts: 24
Expat conditions

Cpt underpants,

When you speak of 'no expat conditions'.... Is that other that HKPLA that others were posting about? Or is there something else that has been removed?
Krashman is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2011, 06:10
  #3379 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 64
Thank you CB for confirming what I should have done a long time ago - simply stayed out of your blinkered "I and all others like me are worth more" mindset. If you were actually a CX pilot, I might actually continue this debate, but most likely over a beer in HK sometime. As you aren't, I simply don't understand the anger that possesses you to keep on at this. You went for a position with CX, according to you, you turned it down because the package wasn't sufficient. Case closed, in my book.

MOVE ON!

I will sign off (once and for all this time) by simply saying this: no, my bosses are no angels. Noone is. However, I will say they are employed to do the best by the company, not themselves. They are there to ensure share-holder profit. I rely on this simple example of market economics to dictate that when CX salaries are not high enough to attract enough people, they increase them. They cannot pay the lowest salaries, because they would park planes. Just as they do for accountants, engineers, cabin crew and others. No doubt you will fling the 49ers book in my face and spout some conspiracy theory about how people in positions of authority are only there to safeguard their own wealth and security, but don't waste your time: I'm simply not interested in those arguments. If you want to go through the rest of your life thinking that CX management's only reason for existence is to continually make pilots' lives a living hell, go ahead. I choose to think CX management's reason for existence is to ensure a growing, thriving company continues to make good profit. One part of that is ensuring costs don't get too high, granted. But salaries can not stop growing so as to compromise the growth of the airline.

If anyone wants to continue this debate at any time in CX City, I'd be more than happy to oblige. There are many things that CX has done wrong, but on the whole, they look after their employees.

Last point - to whoever was asking about whether the HKPA could be spent on buying an overseas property - of course! It's an allowance for you to do with as you please. Guess what - you don't even have to spend it on property if you don't want to. It has nothing to do with housing.

Thank you and good luck to all those who apply.
Voiceofreason is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2011, 06:32
  #3380 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: with the other ex-CX pond scum (a zoologist was once head of Flight Ops)
Posts: 0
Which one of the stooges are you, V.O.R.?

Larry, Curly or Moe?
Captain Dart is offline  

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