Filling indian logbook...
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@Shanx
there is no such thing as "simulated IFR conditions" or "VFR conditions"....
The weather is either IMC or VMC, and you operate flights under VFR or IFR.
actual or simulated IMC has nothing do with with IFR. If you are operating under IFR then you need to have the appropriate ratings in order to operate as PIC.
there is no such thing as "simulated IFR conditions" or "VFR conditions"....
The weather is either IMC or VMC, and you operate flights under VFR or IFR.
actual or simulated IMC has nothing do with with IFR. If you are operating under IFR then you need to have the appropriate ratings in order to operate as PIC.
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@WIKI44
If you read once again what I have written.....
VFR conditions = VMC = Visual Meteorological Conditions
Simulated IFR conditions = Simulating IMC = Simulating Instrument Meteorological Conditions = Simulating IMC when the weather is VFR = Trainee wearing Hood or Jeppshades or any view limiting device with Instructor/Safety pilot on the right seat.
You got to be kidding !!! 
If you read once again what I have written.....
VFR conditions = VMC = Visual Meteorological Conditions
Simulated IFR conditions = Simulating IMC = Simulating Instrument Meteorological Conditions = Simulating IMC when the weather is VFR = Trainee wearing Hood or Jeppshades or any view limiting device with Instructor/Safety pilot on the right seat.
there is no such thing as "simulated IFR conditions" or "VFR conditions"....
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no i'm not kidding! you operate either VFR or IFR. You may simulate the conditions being IMC by wearing a hood.
"Simulated IFR conditions = Simulating IMC = Simulating Instrument Meteorological Conditions = Simulating IMC when the weather is VFR = Trainee wearing Hood or Jeppshades or any view limiting device with Instructor/Safety pilot on the right seat."
vfr or ifr are not conditions, but a set of rules you apply to operate an aeroplane. you can be in VMC and still operate IFR,
What you are failing to understand is that if you are training for an instrument rating, then presumably you are operating the aeroplane under IFR, whether that entails simulated or actual IMC is meaningless. In operating under IFR, you are required to be appropriately qualified in order to log time as PIC i.e. you need an instrument rating!
"Simulated IFR conditions = Simulating IMC = Simulating Instrument Meteorological Conditions = Simulating IMC when the weather is VFR = Trainee wearing Hood or Jeppshades or any view limiting device with Instructor/Safety pilot on the right seat."
vfr or ifr are not conditions, but a set of rules you apply to operate an aeroplane. you can be in VMC and still operate IFR,
What you are failing to understand is that if you are training for an instrument rating, then presumably you are operating the aeroplane under IFR, whether that entails simulated or actual IMC is meaningless. In operating under IFR, you are required to be appropriately qualified in order to log time as PIC i.e. you need an instrument rating!
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What you are failing to understand is that if you are training for an instrument rating, then presumably you are operating the aeroplane under IFR, whether that entails simulated or actual IMC is meaningless. In operating under IFR, you are required to be appropriately qualified in order to log time as PIC i.e. you need an instrument rating!
The ONLY time a non Instrument Rated Private Pilot can log PIC and the Instrument approaches and time, is when the flight is conducted under VFR and he/she has a SAFETY PILOT on the right seat who is appropriately qualified. In such flights, the Instrument student requests for a "Practice Instrument Approach" from the ATC.
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Copy paste from the net :
FAR... Sec. 61.51 - Pilot logbooks.
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person --
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
Indian CARs : (A/c Act 1937)
(6) Flight time spent in performing, under supervision of a pilot-in-command, the duties and functions of a pilot-in-command may be logged as pilot-in-command provided the person is entitled and authorized to fly in command of that type of aeroplane by virtue of the ratings and privileges of his pilot’s licence. In all other cases, such flight time shall be logged as co-pilot with appropriate indication in the remarks column.
(11) Instrument flight time may be logged by the pilot manipulating the controls of an aircraft in flight only when the aircraft is flown solely by reference to instruments, either under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions. Over-the-top flying shall not be logged as instrument flying time.
FAR... Sec. 61.51 - Pilot logbooks.
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person --
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
Indian CARs : (A/c Act 1937)
(6) Flight time spent in performing, under supervision of a pilot-in-command, the duties and functions of a pilot-in-command may be logged as pilot-in-command provided the person is entitled and authorized to fly in command of that type of aeroplane by virtue of the ratings and privileges of his pilot’s licence. In all other cases, such flight time shall be logged as co-pilot with appropriate indication in the remarks column.
(11) Instrument flight time may be logged by the pilot manipulating the controls of an aircraft in flight only when the aircraft is flown solely by reference to instruments, either under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions. Over-the-top flying shall not be logged as instrument flying time.
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all those who are planning to write their IFR training hrs under PIC,
should know that the babus at the dgca will not accept this. if u
r not rated and are under training, you may not necessarily be the
sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft.
should know that the babus at the dgca will not accept this. if u
r not rated and are under training, you may not necessarily be the
sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft.
Last edited by babboo57; 7th Aug 2009 at 08:21. Reason: incorrect english
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Once again ... and for the LAST time ...
A private pilot who is under training for an Instrument Rating when flying under the hood (simulated instrument), IS NOT THE ACTING PIC.
He LOGS PIC TIME because the regulations allow him to do so.
The CFI (the instructor), is the PIC who is responsible for the ultimate safety of the flight.
Now if the same student and instructor are doing an Instrument training flight ... and this time they are in IMC (clouds, dense fog etc), then AGAIN .. STUDENT IS JUST LOGGING PIC since he is CLASS AND CATEGORY RATED.
INSTRUCTOR THIS TIME LOGS PIC BECAUSE HE IS THE ACTING PIC, and IN ADDITION TO THIS, he can log the Instrument Approaches as well since they are in IMC.
Please get the following concept clear :
There is a difference between LOGGING PIC TIME and Acting as PIC !!!
A private pilot who is under training for an Instrument Rating when flying under the hood (simulated instrument), IS NOT THE ACTING PIC.
He LOGS PIC TIME because the regulations allow him to do so.
The CFI (the instructor), is the PIC who is responsible for the ultimate safety of the flight.
Now if the same student and instructor are doing an Instrument training flight ... and this time they are in IMC (clouds, dense fog etc), then AGAIN .. STUDENT IS JUST LOGGING PIC since he is CLASS AND CATEGORY RATED.
INSTRUCTOR THIS TIME LOGS PIC BECAUSE HE IS THE ACTING PIC, and IN ADDITION TO THIS, he can log the Instrument Approaches as well since they are in IMC.
Please get the following concept clear :
There is a difference between LOGGING PIC TIME and Acting as PIC !!!
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Certain parts of the regulations do allow us to LOG PIC time in order to meet the requirements of any Additional Rating or higher Certificate/Licence.
The instructor or CFI ACTS as PIC because by ICAO definition, he is the one responsible for the safety of the flight... and hence he logs PIC because he is the PIC.
I can not explain this any clearer.
As another example ...
In India, in the airlines ... rookie Rookie First Officers with barely 250 hours total time can LOG PIC TIME (P1 under training) after they pass certain checks and meeting certain criteria.
Thats the ONLY WAY they can meet the PIC time requirements for the issue of an ATPL later on.
The instructor or CFI ACTS as PIC because by ICAO definition, he is the one responsible for the safety of the flight... and hence he logs PIC because he is the PIC.
I can not explain this any clearer.
As another example ...
In India, in the airlines ... rookie Rookie First Officers with barely 250 hours total time can LOG PIC TIME (P1 under training) after they pass certain checks and meeting certain criteria.
Thats the ONLY WAY they can meet the PIC time requirements for the issue of an ATPL later on.
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I know some students who train in India also log this "P1 under supervision" time as SPIC (Student PIC)
Once again ...
STUDENT ---> LOGS PIC TIME (PPL .. same category, class, type rating if applicable etc)
INSTRUCTOR(CFI) ---> ACTS AS PIC (The one who is responsible for the safety of the flight and has the final say)
Once again ...
STUDENT ---> LOGS PIC TIME (PPL .. same category, class, type rating if applicable etc)
INSTRUCTOR(CFI) ---> ACTS AS PIC (The one who is responsible for the safety of the flight and has the final say)
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"(6) Flight time spent in performing, under supervision of a pilot-in-command, the duties and functions of a pilot-in-command may be logged as pilot-in-command provided the person is entitled and authorized to fly in command of that type of aeroplane by virtue of the ratings and privileges of his pilot’s licence. In all other cases, such flight time shall be logged as co-pilot with appropriate indication in the remarks column.
(11) Instrument flight time may be logged by the pilot manipulating the controls of an aircraft in flight only when the aircraft is flown solely by reference to instruments, either under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions. Over-the-top flying shall not be logged as instrument flying time."
The two point above are not mutually exclusive.
Not having an instrument rating, while one is training, and flying under IFR does not allow you to log PIC, just becasue you are the sole manipulator of the controls. In order to log PIC you need to have the appropriate ratings! Just like it says in your post!
"When flying in the clouds ie under ACTUAL IMC, you are still PIC by virtue of your licence/certificate(PPL) and because you are sole manipulator of the controls."
That is what you posted previously. If flying in actual IMC, you need an instrument rating to log PIC because you need to operate under IFR. Otherwise it is dual. Having a PPL without additional ratings, only authorizes you to fly by VFR.
As for being the sole manipulator.... The instructor sitting next to you will make inputs at some point during the flight in terms of decision making and control inputs. After all you are under training.
"Whether the flight is conducted under VFR or IFR here is irrelevant because a student during his training flights will ALWAYS have an Instructor with him on the right seat."
It is very relevant if the flight is conducted under VFR or IFR. That is the whole point. Student pilots will not always have an instructor on board. Whatever do you think happens when you go first solo?
It seems people want to log PIC as soon as they get anywhere near an aeroplane. Can I also log flight engineer time if i sit sideways in the back seat of a 172, and monitor the engine guages every now and then? Funny how some people end up having at least 10 logbooks, all with very different numbers.....
(11) Instrument flight time may be logged by the pilot manipulating the controls of an aircraft in flight only when the aircraft is flown solely by reference to instruments, either under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions. Over-the-top flying shall not be logged as instrument flying time."
The two point above are not mutually exclusive.
Not having an instrument rating, while one is training, and flying under IFR does not allow you to log PIC, just becasue you are the sole manipulator of the controls. In order to log PIC you need to have the appropriate ratings! Just like it says in your post!
"When flying in the clouds ie under ACTUAL IMC, you are still PIC by virtue of your licence/certificate(PPL) and because you are sole manipulator of the controls."
That is what you posted previously. If flying in actual IMC, you need an instrument rating to log PIC because you need to operate under IFR. Otherwise it is dual. Having a PPL without additional ratings, only authorizes you to fly by VFR.
As for being the sole manipulator.... The instructor sitting next to you will make inputs at some point during the flight in terms of decision making and control inputs. After all you are under training.
"Whether the flight is conducted under VFR or IFR here is irrelevant because a student during his training flights will ALWAYS have an Instructor with him on the right seat."
It is very relevant if the flight is conducted under VFR or IFR. That is the whole point. Student pilots will not always have an instructor on board. Whatever do you think happens when you go first solo?
It seems people want to log PIC as soon as they get anywhere near an aeroplane. Can I also log flight engineer time if i sit sideways in the back seat of a 172, and monitor the engine guages every now and then? Funny how some people end up having at least 10 logbooks, all with very different numbers.....
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@shanx, I agree with you. However, how does the DGCA view the whole 'logging PIC time, post Private Pilot Certification?
Is it not true that they will not consider your time as PIC time (even though your category and class rated) if you're flying with a CFI, and that only solo time is considered PIC time?
Is it not true that they will not consider your time as PIC time (even though your category and class rated) if you're flying with a CFI, and that only solo time is considered PIC time?
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@WIKI44
If it is'nt already very obvious to you, we're talking ONLY ABOUT ALL DUAL TRAINING FLIGHTS... and Im sure you'll agree all dual training flights need an Instructor on board !
(More specifically about Private Pilots who are training towards an Instrument Rating)
Obviously we're not talking about a non instrument rated private pilot going into the clouds solo or with his grandma on right seat.
If it is'nt already very obvious to you, we're talking ONLY ABOUT ALL DUAL TRAINING FLIGHTS... and Im sure you'll agree all dual training flights need an Instructor on board !
(More specifically about Private Pilots who are training towards an Instrument Rating)
Obviously we're not talking about a non instrument rated private pilot going into the clouds solo or with his grandma on right seat.
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@WIKI44
A clarification ... When I say student pilot .. I mean an Instrument Student pilot. ie. a Private Pilot who is under training.
I'll agree to one point you have mentioned somewhere above.
ie. Incase Instructor gives any flight control inputs during the flight, then during that portion of the flight, student is NOT sole manipulator of the controls.
There could be some situations like that. I can think of only 2 :
1. During "Unusual Attitude Recovery" training. When student hands over the controls to the instructor and he manipulates the controls to put the airplane in an unusual atittude, then THAT TIME, only instructor can log PIC, not the student.
Thats how I logged my flight time.
For example .. me and my instructor took off on a flight in VFR conditions, I was under the hood. Total flight time was 1.5 hours. I did all the taxiing, take off and landing EXCEPT for the little time when instructor had the controls when he put the plane in an unusual attitude. Maybe totally ten or fifteen minutes.
Hence out of 1.5 hours ... 1.2 was PIC time, and 0.3 was logged as dual time.
2. Another situation could possibly be if the student suddenly feels unwell or does something to jeopardize safety of the flight, because of which Instructor would take the controls.
A clarification ... When I say student pilot .. I mean an Instrument Student pilot. ie. a Private Pilot who is under training.
I'll agree to one point you have mentioned somewhere above.
ie. Incase Instructor gives any flight control inputs during the flight, then during that portion of the flight, student is NOT sole manipulator of the controls.
There could be some situations like that. I can think of only 2 :
1. During "Unusual Attitude Recovery" training. When student hands over the controls to the instructor and he manipulates the controls to put the airplane in an unusual atittude, then THAT TIME, only instructor can log PIC, not the student.
Thats how I logged my flight time.
For example .. me and my instructor took off on a flight in VFR conditions, I was under the hood. Total flight time was 1.5 hours. I did all the taxiing, take off and landing EXCEPT for the little time when instructor had the controls when he put the plane in an unusual attitude. Maybe totally ten or fifteen minutes.
Hence out of 1.5 hours ... 1.2 was PIC time, and 0.3 was logged as dual time.
2. Another situation could possibly be if the student suddenly feels unwell or does something to jeopardize safety of the flight, because of which Instructor would take the controls.
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Indian CAR 67A
(5) Flight time during which a pilot is under dual instruction shall be entered in his log book as “dual” and the pilot giving instruction shall make entries in the log book of the pilot under instruction showing the nature of the instruction given.
(6) Flight time spent in performing, under supervision of a pilot-in-command, the duties and functions of a pilot-in-command may be logged as pilot-in-command provided the person is entitled and authorized to fly in command of that type of aeroplane by virtue of the ratings and privileges of his pilot’s licence. In all other cases, such flight time shall be logged as co-pilot with appropriate indication in the remarks column.
(7) The holder of a Student Pilot’s Licence may log as pilot-in-command only that portion of the flight time during which he is the sole occupant of an aircraft provided that, in the case of an aircraft which requires more than one pilot in accordance with sub (7) of rule 38A and rule 6B, he may log as pilot-in-command that portion of the flight time during which he acts as pilots-in-command of the aircraft.
(8) The holder of a Private Pilot’s Licence may log as pilot-in-command only the flight time during which he acts as pilot-in-command.
(9)The holder of a Commercial, Senior Commercial or Airline Transport Pilot’s Licence may log as pilot-in-command the flight time during which he acts as pilot-in-command. He shall log as co-pilot the flight time during which he acts as co-pilot.
Things might be different under FAA rules, but I think they are quite clear under DGCA rules.
If you are a PPL/CPL holder you can log flight time as PIC only when you are acting as PIC. In order to act as PIC, you need to have the appropriate ratings and endorsements. When under supervision, you may also log as PIC but again you need to have the appropriate ratings and endorsements. Supervision is not the same as training. When you are receiving training, flight time is to be logged as dual.
(5) Flight time during which a pilot is under dual instruction shall be entered in his log book as “dual” and the pilot giving instruction shall make entries in the log book of the pilot under instruction showing the nature of the instruction given.
(6) Flight time spent in performing, under supervision of a pilot-in-command, the duties and functions of a pilot-in-command may be logged as pilot-in-command provided the person is entitled and authorized to fly in command of that type of aeroplane by virtue of the ratings and privileges of his pilot’s licence. In all other cases, such flight time shall be logged as co-pilot with appropriate indication in the remarks column.
(7) The holder of a Student Pilot’s Licence may log as pilot-in-command only that portion of the flight time during which he is the sole occupant of an aircraft provided that, in the case of an aircraft which requires more than one pilot in accordance with sub (7) of rule 38A and rule 6B, he may log as pilot-in-command that portion of the flight time during which he acts as pilots-in-command of the aircraft.
(8) The holder of a Private Pilot’s Licence may log as pilot-in-command only the flight time during which he acts as pilot-in-command.
(9)The holder of a Commercial, Senior Commercial or Airline Transport Pilot’s Licence may log as pilot-in-command the flight time during which he acts as pilot-in-command. He shall log as co-pilot the flight time during which he acts as co-pilot.
Things might be different under FAA rules, but I think they are quite clear under DGCA rules.
If you are a PPL/CPL holder you can log flight time as PIC only when you are acting as PIC. In order to act as PIC, you need to have the appropriate ratings and endorsements. When under supervision, you may also log as PIC but again you need to have the appropriate ratings and endorsements. Supervision is not the same as training. When you are receiving training, flight time is to be logged as dual.
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If a private pilot is working towards his IR, with his CFI occupying the right seat, the pilot logs all of the time as PIC and Dual Received, while the CFI logs the time under PIC and Dual Given.
'Supervision' would be when the pilot is taking his check ride, and all of the time can be logged as PIC time (no dual received), while under 'training', he can still log all of the time as PIC (provided he is category and class rated) and 'dual received'.
My query is, whether or not the DGCA views it the same way.
'Supervision' would be when the pilot is taking his check ride, and all of the time can be logged as PIC time (no dual received), while under 'training', he can still log all of the time as PIC (provided he is category and class rated) and 'dual received'.
My query is, whether or not the DGCA views it the same way.
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Log books with instrument p.i.c time logged by faa ppl holders before getting the ir rating are generally accepted by the dgca during the conversion process. So far I don't know anyone who had a problem with that. I could be wrong though, with the DGCA generally being capricious most of the time...
So what do student pilots in india flying solo log before getting their ppl under the dgca rules-dual received with the cessna ???
So what do student pilots in india flying solo log before getting their ppl under the dgca rules-dual received with the cessna
???
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(7) The holder of a Student Pilot’s Licence may log as pilot-in-command only that portion of the flight time during which he is the sole occupant of an aircraft provided that, in the case of an aircraft which requires more than one pilot in accordance with sub (7) of rule 38A and rule 6B, he may log as pilot-in-command that portion of the flight time during which he acts as pilots-in-command of the aircraft.
While there might be a distinction between logging PIC and acting as PIC for the FAA, that distinction does not exist for the DGCA i.e if you are logging PIC then you must be acting as PIC also.
While there might be a distinction between logging PIC and acting as PIC for the FAA, that distinction does not exist for the DGCA i.e if you are logging PIC then you must be acting as PIC also.
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I also trained in the US and all my Instrument time was logged as PIC.
I did not face problems while converting.
But then ofcourse, with the DGCA, you can never be sure.
But then, think about it this way.
If you have done your training in another country, is'nt it logical that you fly and log your flying time according to THAT particular country's rules and regulations ?
I did not face problems while converting.
But then ofcourse, with the DGCA, you can never be sure.
But then, think about it this way.
If you have done your training in another country, is'nt it logical that you fly and log your flying time according to THAT particular country's rules and regulations ?
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Looks like I might have a problem. I have been keeping trail for several years of flying with solely the aircraft logbook copies (trips). I have been "lucky" to stick with a charter operator for a LONG time, with records of Pilot Position, IFR/ Night/ Approaches and all the rest. When you think of it what is more accurate and genuine than the actual flight log/release itself. Ok, maybe I am a bit lazy on this one...
Now It seems that I might need an Indian Validation for a new opportunity very soon. I can see the DGAC saying what is this?????
Now It seems that I might need an Indian Validation for a new opportunity very soon. I can see the DGAC saying what is this?????
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@Cyrilroy21
I logged my Instrument training flights under DUAL, PIC, and SIMULATED INSTRUMENT columns.
One more thing ... contrary to what my peers were doing I DID NOT maintain a separate "Indian logbook", and all my flight hours were logged in decimals like how it is normally done in the US.
ie. 1.5 Hours rather than 1hour 30 Minutes.
In the end, the frustrating thing for people looking for help and/or guidance is that NOTHING IS CRYSTAL CLEAR.
I converted my license without separate Indian logbook without problems, while others faced problems. Many others converted without problems when they showed DGCA their Indian Logbook. while some others faced problems even with an Indian logbook.
I logged my Instrument training flights under DUAL, PIC, and SIMULATED INSTRUMENT columns.
One more thing ... contrary to what my peers were doing I DID NOT maintain a separate "Indian logbook", and all my flight hours were logged in decimals like how it is normally done in the US.
ie. 1.5 Hours rather than 1hour 30 Minutes.
In the end, the frustrating thing for people looking for help and/or guidance is that NOTHING IS CRYSTAL CLEAR.
I converted my license without separate Indian logbook without problems, while others faced problems. Many others converted without problems when they showed DGCA their Indian Logbook. while some others faced problems even with an Indian logbook.