Filling indian logbook...

[avalanche007]

hi
well 250 nm x country is no different
so you can log it as separate flights
however in the remarks column in the end u can write 250 nm x country across all of them to show to dgca
thats very important

[devyani_rao]

Well the problem now is, I have logged post PPL dual flights as PIC. any solutions?

dats no prblm.. my instructor (faa) told me u can log that way.. and i even got my license converted..

[Gulfstreamaviator]

no one really knows what to do anyway

Moons ago, when I went to get my UK/FAA ATPL, converted to DGCA as I was flying an Indian registered Citation, I was told not to bother, just have another validation, and shut up.

them were the days,

glf

[nikhilheb]

@avalanche007

yup, trained in the US, they say once you've gotten your PPL, you can fly a plane, so everything after is PIC. makes sense!

@devyani

How many total solo hours did u have? i have 81, and no instructor hours, so from what i gather, I have only 81 hours PIC whereas i require 100.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks!

[devyani_rao]

I had abt 30 solo. 190 pic and 253 total.

[avalanche007]

yup, trained in the US, they say once you've gotten your PPL, you can fly a plane, so everything after is PIC. makes sense!

well the same thing doesnt makes sense in canada and i guess in india too after your ppl
because even after ppl if you are learning something then its dual and not pic beacause you being trained by an instructor
we follow this rule and i made my logbook according to it

even the extract from aircraft rules 1937 says

Flight time during which a pilot is under dual instruction shall be entered in his log book as “dual” and the pilot giving instruction shall make entries in the log book of the pilot under instruction showing the nature of the instruction given.

doesnt mentions anywhere if after ppl or cpl one can log dual instruction as pic

this makes more sense

anyways if deyani has mentioned that she has done this and got her licence successfully converted then you can surely try

[t.a]

Faa Log book

Is the little FAA logbook accepted in india which is received along with the CMM kit of King's flight school?

Pls say yes or no!

Thx for being crisp.

[avalanche007]

affirmative
(well i had to type so big because system doesnt excepts yes or no)

[guitarboy]

@avalanche-

(6) Flight time spent in performing, under supervision of a pilot-in-command, the duties and functions of a pilot-in-command may be logged as pilot-in-command provided the person is entitled and authorized to fly in command of that type of aeroplane by virtue of the ratings and privileges of his pilot’s licence. In all other cases, such flight time shall be logged as co-pilot with appropriate indication in the remarks column.

Thus it does say that One Can log PIC even while under instruction if the person has the authorization of acting as a PIC which is obviously given by a PPL.

Thus i believe logging PIC & DUAL is the way to go for these flights.
But say for example a flight is for the duration of 1.6Hours, you may log as PIC for say 1.4 as even the instructor would take about 0.2 of an hour to teach something etc.

The above is also confirmed by devyani_rao

I had abt 30 solo. 190 pic and 253 total.

For anyone who is unsure about Filling the logbook etc please refer to:
67A

[t.a]

avalanche007

That's a good reply capt avalanche007

Thx man.

[guitarboy]

@Indair

in reply to your following post

Sim time is just Sim Time and nothing else .. You cant log it as PIC..

Well i know i cant log SIM time as PIC but was actually asking if in the Remarks Section i actually have to write the Name of the TRI i.e. The Type Rating Instructor. (Just phrased the question a li'l wrong, soz)

So my question is still unanswered.

Q. Does the SIM Time go in DUAL RECEIVED? or is it just for the FLIGHT SIMULATOR section of the logbook. (By Sim Time i mean PCATD and/or LEVEL D SIM Time)

Also as far as i know the SIM Time DOES NOT go into the TOTAL DURATION OF FLIGHT Column. Correct Me if im Wrong.

Please Clarify.

Thanks

[avalanche007]

@guitarboy

Flight time spent in performing, under supervision of a pilot-in-command, the duties and functions of a pilot-in-command may be logged as pilot-in-command provided the person is entitled and authorized to fly in command of that type of aeroplane by virtue of the ratings and privileges of his pilot’s licence. In all other cases, such flight time shall be logged as co-pilot with appropriate indication in the remarks column.

Thus it does say that One Can log PIC even while under instruction if the person has the authorization of acting as a PIC which is obviously given by a PPL.

Thus i believe logging PIC & DUAL is the way to go for these flights.
But say for example a flight is for the duration of 1.6Hours, you may log as PIC for say 1.4 as even the instructor would take about 0.2 of an hour to teach something etc.

The above is also confirmed by devyani_rao

well in your extract from aircraft rules wqhere does it mentions INSTRUCTIONS as mentioned by you in post
your copy of rules just mentions supervision
so that means if an instructor is just accompanying you just to supervise you or for any else apart from giving dual instructions than you can log it as pic

but if you are getting any instruction as you mentioned then it goes under dual no wonder in which country you are

also in indian logbook, there is no such provision at all
the column is there only for multi engine aircrafts

regarding partition of hours, well that can be done but logging all your flights after ppl as pic even though you do it dual is wrong

because even after ppl we learn many manoeuvres and we are surely not the pic for the whole duration of the aircraft

also regarding the logbook entry though you have asked it to indair, i will still reply: well i logged it only sim column and nowhere else not even in dual section also

@ta:
thanks

[shanx]

well in your extract from aircraft rules wqhere does it mentions INSTRUCTIONS as mentioned by you in post
your copy of rules just mentions supervision
so that means if an instructor is just accompanying you just to supervise you or for any else apart from giving dual instructions than you can log it as pic

One can not go by every minute WORD written in the CARs.
The above rules is what forms the basis of logging PIC time when you are qualified .. ie when you are a PPL holder but still getting instructions/supervision from an instructor.

but if you are getting any instruction as you mentioned then it goes under dual no wonder in which country you are

Thats not true. Every country though an ICAO member, has different interpretations for rules and definitions. Canadian rules are different from American rules which are again different from Indian CARs.

also in indian logbook, there is no such provision at all
the column is there only for multi engine aircrafts

A pilot logbook is purely a material for record keeping of the pilot's flight time in order to meet re-currency requirements or for adding additional privileges and ratings etc. There is no "official" logbook format. If the "Indian logbook" sold by English bookstore(Delhi) or Sterling (Mumbai) does not have columns for P1 UNDER SUPERVISION or P1 UNDER TRAINING, then CREATE A COLUMN. Simple.

regarding partition of hours, well that can be done but logging all your flights after ppl as pic even though you do it dual is wrong.
because even after ppl we learn many manoeuvres and we are surely not the pic for the whole duration of the aircraft

Logging flights as PIC after your PPL is perfectly true and legal.
Even the Indian CARs allow it. Those schools in USA and Canada who say that this is not allowed, and make the student fly more solo hours are just fleecing those students and sucking money from them. Most of the flying schools in USA and Canada and other countries anyway know that hardly any student in India knows anything about India's regulations and purely go by rumours. This is what they capitalise on.

Even if you learn maneuvers (American English), and other things after your PPL, you are still very much a LEGALLY RATED PILOT. You are not a plain vanilla STUDENT.
A Private Pilot (PPL) may not be knowing how to execute a Chandelle, or a lazy eight or do steep descending spirals, however that does not prevent him/her from logging PIC time.

Hence, you still log PIC because you occupy the LEFT SEAT of an aircraft for which you are rated on .. which in this case is a SINGLE ENGINE LAND aircraft. (Because your PPL states AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND).

From the same Aircraft Rules 67(A)

(8) The holder of a Private Pilot’s Licence may log as pilot-in-command only the flight time during which he acts as pilot-in-command.

[shanx]

This topic has been beaten to death, yet people seem to be asking about this "Indian Logbook" thing time and again !

I did not have any problem in submitting my FAA logbook. Nor did any of my friends who trained in USA.

YOU DO NOT NEED A SEPARATE INDIAN LOGBOOK !!!

Anyway, for those who like complicating their lives, here are 3 WAYS TO LOG YOUR FLIGHT TIME and submit to DGCA for conversion :


1. Just submit your FAA/CAA/JAA/CASA etc Logbook.

but no .. you want to complicate things and enjoy making more logbooks, so fine .. you have 2 more options !

2. Log all the time after PPL as P1 UNDER TRAINING .. ie P1 U/T column. If there's no column like that then god damn CREATE ONE ! you wont be breaking any rules by making an additional column .. thats why you have those blank columns in the first place !!

3. Or, if you dont like this method of P1 UNDER TRAINING funda, then you have one more option.
Create a new column called SPIC (STUDENT PILOT IN COMMAND).
Under this column, log all your flights after PPL.
You are a rated pilot but you are still a student as far as getting an instrument rating or a CPL goes.
This is also very much legal.

Refer to A/c act 1937, Schedule II, Section L, SubPart (E) for requirement for issue of Commercial Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes with IR) :

(e) Experience – He shall produce evidence of having satisfactorily completed
as a pilot of an aeroplane within a period of five years immediately
preceding the date of application for licence not less than two hundred hours
of flight time, which shall include –
(i) not less than hundred hours of flight time as Pilot-in-Command
out of which not less than thirty hours flight time as Student
Pilot-in-Command which shall include not more than twenty
hours of cross country flight time and not more than ten hours

circuits-landings with minimum ten landings;


Further, please refer to Aircraft's Act 1937, PART 1, SubPart 3 (DEFINITIONS AND INTERPRETATIONS)
And in that please see def. 52(A) :

(52A) “Student Pilot-in-Command” means a trainee pilot, acting as Pilot-in-Command under observation of a flight instructor, who shall not manipulate the flight controls of an aircraft or influence the flight during flight time except when the safety of the aircraft
is jeopartised.

Note: In the event the instructor manipulates the flight controls during the flight, the flight shall be deemed to be a dual instructional flight.


So there you have it folks ! 3 ways to submit your logbook for conversion. ALL 3 ACCEPTABLE. (100% GUARANTEE )
1 easy method, 2 complicated methods or for those who just like killing time by making new logbooks.

[avalanche007]

One can not go by every minute WORD written in the CARs.
The above rules is what forms the basis of logging PIC time when you are qualified .. ie when you are a PPL holder but still getting instructions/supervision from an instructor.

do you really mean not going not going with every word
well if there is rule written down specially for dual flights which has the words instructions in it then why cant you take that straight away instead just taking another and meding it your way and saying you cant follow cars word by word

havent you seen dgca reg exams
options are always close
that means dgca expects us to know each and every word
though its not practical but still what is part of your daily flying, we should know it

Thats not true. Every country though an ICAO member, has different interpretations for rules and definitions. Canadian rules are different from American rules which are again different from Indian CARs.

well does faa rules clearly states that after you have got your ppl, even if you are getting dual instructions still you can log the flight as pic
weird

Logging flights as PIC after your PPL is perfectly true and legal.
Even the Indian CARs allow it. Those schools in USA and Canada who say that this is not allowed, and make the student fly more solo hours are just fleecing those students and sucking money from them. Most of the flying schools in USA and Canada and other countries anyway know that hardly any student in India knows anything about India's regulations and purely go by rumours. This is what they capitalise on.

Even if you learn maneuvers (American English), and other things after your PPL, you are still very much a LEGALLY RATED PILOT. You are not a plain vanilla STUDENT.
A Private Pilot (PPL) may not be knowing how to execute a Chandelle, or a lazy eight or do steep descending spirals, however that does not prevent him/her from logging PIC time.

Hence, you still log PIC because you occupy the LEFT SEAT of an aircraft for which you are rated on .. which in this case is a SINGLE ENGINE LAND aircraft. (Because your PPL states AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND).

well i never objected to logging flights after ppl as pic but if you are getting dual instructions then surely you cant log it in canada and also in india as per the cars and aircraft rules (sorry mate you will have to read word by word)

and if you are learning maneuvers even after ppl or cpl that means you are under dual instruction and the flight time will go in dual

i just conducted a fam flight in a multi and had to log it in dual
if i had wishes i could have logged it as pic because forget ppl i have cpl and its just a fam flight without any dual instructions

i also inquired with dgca but they mentioned that it will go under dual and not pic

and so it doesn't mean where you sit
but what you act as, according to this you log your hours
i never knew that the side on which you seat influences in loging our flight times

[avalanche007]

52A) “Student Pilot-in-Command” means a trainee pilot, acting as Pilot-in-Command under observation of a flight instructor, who shall not manipulate the flight controls of an aircraft or influence the flight during flight time except when the safety of the aircraft
is jeopartised.

Note: In the event the instructor manipulates the flight controls during the flight, the flight shall be deemed to be a dual instructional flight.

One can not go by every minute WORD written in the CARs.
The above rules is what forms the basis of logging PIC time when you are qualified .. ie when you are a PPL holder but still getting instructions/supervision from an instructor.

buddy you are contradicting your own statemnets which you mentioned in 2 posts

if someone is receiving instructions from instructor then ofcourse first instructor will demonstrate by taking controls in his hand
so the whole flight cannot be pic even after ppl

[shanx]

Err ... you havent understood what I meant by saying that you "can not go by every MINUTE WORD".

Anyway .. simply disregard that.

What I meant was, the rules says SUPERVISION, but that also means/includes INSTRUCTION.

I DID NOT mean bending or mending rules etc. I guess I should have simply said "Supervision and Instruction" mean the same as far as that rule goes for CPL conversions.

If it was illegal, then DGCA would not be accepting logbooks with flight time logged under P1 UNDER SUPERVISION or P1 UNDER TRAINING.


Anyway .. I have clearly mentioned in my previous post about the 3 options to submit your logbook, along with the references to the different sections of CARs.

I did not have problems in conversion, just like the hundreds (or thousands) of students who trained in US/Canada etc and submitted their logbooks.

[shanx]

well i never objected to logging flights after ppl as pic but if you are getting dual instructions then surely you cant log it in canada and also in india as per the cars and aircraft rules (sorry mate you will have to read word by word)

If you had read word by word of the Indian regs, then Im sure you would have come across the term STUDENT PILOT IN COMMAND. (SPIC)

[avalanche007]

If it was illegal, then DGCA would not be accepting logbooks with flight time logged under P1 UNDER SUPERVISION or P1 UNDER TRAINING.

well that can be done very well but then no one mentioned this
people just mentioned pic
so it cant be purely pic but yes you can log it under p1 u/s o rp1 u/t

in my canadian and indian logbook i did had this column so did not knew if just by pic people meant these columns

What I meant was, the rules says SUPERVISION, but that also means/includes INSTRUCTION.

well you should also refer this rule

Flight time during which a pilot is under dual instruction shall be entered in his log book as “dual” and the pilot giving instruction shall make entries in the log book of the pilot under instruction showing the nature of the instruction given.

which clearly mentions instruction

however i guess the matter is solved as yes you can log under those 2 columns

I did not have problems in conversion, just like the hundreds (or thousands) of students who trained in US/Canada etc and submitted their logbooks.

even i did not and i hope no one else has it too
thats why i ask people to go as simple as possible with dgca and its process
you never know when they can screw you up

[avalanche007]

If you had read word by word of the Indian regs, then Im sure you would have come across the term STUDENT PILOT IN COMMAND. (SPIC)

well yes i did
when i gave the exams of my indian spl at that time we needed to study all this
but then in my canadian logbook though i had empty columns but still couldnt write this and indian logbook did not have any empty columns

so couldnt make use of it