Filling indian logbook...
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One of the BIGGEST MISCONCEPTIONS amongst Indian students ...
... that in USA, one can log "dual PIC", whereas in other ICAO countries including India, only SOLO time can be logged as PIC.
Nothing is further away from the truth !!
The reason you log PIC after you get your Private Pilot Licence or Certificate is because you are now a certified and qualified PILOT.
Yes, you are very much a legally qualified pilot by virtue of your licence (PPL), except that you may not be paid to fly and blah blah blah. (because you are not a CPL holder)
But that does NOT mean you can not act as Pilot in Command.
Ok, now, lets walk through a typical instructional flight for someone who is training towards an Instrument Rating.
The pilot under training is a PPL.
Remember, in a C-152, piper cherokee etc and other training aircraft, ONLY the left seat can be occupied by the legally stipulated "crew member".
Which means, any person, animal or humanoid
can NOT legally act as pilot in command if he/she/it sits on the RIGHT seat of those aircraft.
The ONLY two cases when a pilot can sit on the RHS and still log PIC in those training aircraft is IF they are flight instructors or ATPL holders.
Now in this typical instrument training lesson, YOU (the PPL holder), are the PIC because you are a licenced pilot and are occupying the left seat (which is meant to be occupied only by a licenced pilot).
Hence you log PIC time !
Now, why log dual time along with PIC time ??
Well, although you are the legal PIC in this flight, you are STILL UNDER TRAINING/SUPERVISION under an instructor because you are pursuing an Instrument rating.
Hence, the SAME flight in which you are PIC (by virtue of your License and the seat you are occupying), it so happens that you are ALSO getting training from the "passenger" on your RHS .. AKA .. the Instructor .. who can legally log PIC time in his logbook NOT because he is PIC, but BECAUSE the regulations allows him to do so (by virtue of his Instructor Ratings)
... that in USA, one can log "dual PIC", whereas in other ICAO countries including India, only SOLO time can be logged as PIC.
Nothing is further away from the truth !!
The reason you log PIC after you get your Private Pilot Licence or Certificate is because you are now a certified and qualified PILOT.
Yes, you are very much a legally qualified pilot by virtue of your licence (PPL), except that you may not be paid to fly and blah blah blah. (because you are not a CPL holder)
But that does NOT mean you can not act as Pilot in Command.
Ok, now, lets walk through a typical instructional flight for someone who is training towards an Instrument Rating.
The pilot under training is a PPL.
Remember, in a C-152, piper cherokee etc and other training aircraft, ONLY the left seat can be occupied by the legally stipulated "crew member".
Which means, any person, animal or humanoid
can NOT legally act as pilot in command if he/she/it sits on the RIGHT seat of those aircraft.The ONLY two cases when a pilot can sit on the RHS and still log PIC in those training aircraft is IF they are flight instructors or ATPL holders.
Now in this typical instrument training lesson, YOU (the PPL holder), are the PIC because you are a licenced pilot and are occupying the left seat (which is meant to be occupied only by a licenced pilot).
Hence you log PIC time !
Now, why log dual time along with PIC time ??
Well, although you are the legal PIC in this flight, you are STILL UNDER TRAINING/SUPERVISION under an instructor because you are pursuing an Instrument rating.
Hence, the SAME flight in which you are PIC (by virtue of your License and the seat you are occupying), it so happens that you are ALSO getting training from the "passenger" on your RHS .. AKA .. the Instructor .. who can legally log PIC time in his logbook NOT because he is PIC, but BECAUSE the regulations allows him to do so (by virtue of his Instructor Ratings)
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Contd. from above ...
What some people term as "Dual PIC" is basically a flight in which a legally Licensed pilot is getting trained by the person on the RHS (who happens to be a legally certified flight instructor).
In other ICAO countries, this so called "dual PIC" time is logged as P1 UNDER SUPERVISION/TRAINING.
Which is why you will not find this (P1 Under Supervision/Training) or P1/US or P1/UT column in FAA logbooks.
You will find this column in JAA/other ICAO countries pilot logbooks.
What some people term as "Dual PIC" is basically a flight in which a legally Licensed pilot is getting trained by the person on the RHS (who happens to be a legally certified flight instructor).
In other ICAO countries, this so called "dual PIC" time is logged as P1 UNDER SUPERVISION/TRAINING.
Which is why you will not find this (P1 Under Supervision/Training) or P1/US or P1/UT column in FAA logbooks.
You will find this column in JAA/other ICAO countries pilot logbooks.
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Both FAA and DGCA rules related to logging PIC time is almost the same ...
For those who do not agree to what I have written above, please see the following link to the Aircraft's Act 1937 and specifically the rule 67(A) related to Logging of Flight time ...
67
quoted from that article ...
"(5) Flight time during which a pilot is under dual instruction shall be entered in his log book as “dual” and the pilot giving instruction shall make entries in the log book of the pilot under instruction showing the nature of the instruction given. (6) Flight time spent in performing, under supervision of a pilot-in-command, the duties and functions of a pilot-in-command may be logged as pilot-in-command provided the person is entitled and authorized to fly in command of that type of aeroplane by virtue of the ratings and privileges of his pilot’s licence. In all other cases, such flight time shall be logged as co-pilot with appropriate indication in the remarks column.
"
Rule sub part (5) is the reason why you log DUAL TIME after your PPL.
Rule sub part (6) is the reason why you log PIC.
It is the same rule above, by which first officers in airlines are finally able to meet the requirements for issue of an ALTP in India.
Another rule related to airline flying in India is that only half the number of such "Under Supervision PIC time" will be counted towards your ALTP requirement.
For those who do not agree to what I have written above, please see the following link to the Aircraft's Act 1937 and specifically the rule 67(A) related to Logging of Flight time ...
67
quoted from that article ...
"(5) Flight time during which a pilot is under dual instruction shall be entered in his log book as “dual” and the pilot giving instruction shall make entries in the log book of the pilot under instruction showing the nature of the instruction given. (6) Flight time spent in performing, under supervision of a pilot-in-command, the duties and functions of a pilot-in-command may be logged as pilot-in-command provided the person is entitled and authorized to fly in command of that type of aeroplane by virtue of the ratings and privileges of his pilot’s licence. In all other cases, such flight time shall be logged as co-pilot with appropriate indication in the remarks column.
"
Rule sub part (5) is the reason why you log DUAL TIME after your PPL.
Rule sub part (6) is the reason why you log PIC.
It is the same rule above, by which first officers in airlines are finally able to meet the requirements for issue of an ALTP in India.
Another rule related to airline flying in India is that only half the number of such "Under Supervision PIC time" will be counted towards your ALTP requirement.
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SHANX
100/100 but guys just to safe guard ur selves make sure u have 100 hours SOLO time while submitting ur paperwork..
Because the fact of the matter is NOBODY KNOWS OR FOLLOWS THE RULES though u can find them on the book..
My Friend was asked to submit his australian CPL by our great DGCA while he did all his flying in USA. An objection was raised in this issue during his conversion and he had to go to higher authorities to prove his point that he has never been to australia.
To protect myself i ll make sure i have (more than) what they are looking for..especially hours..
Also as Shanx said, u are legal as PIC even in India with all those hours..
But for god sake dont strike off any thing in ur log book.. it will cost u money ...
Happy Landings,
Ind Air 967.
100/100 but guys just to safe guard ur selves make sure u have 100 hours SOLO time while submitting ur paperwork..
Because the fact of the matter is NOBODY KNOWS OR FOLLOWS THE RULES though u can find them on the book..
My Friend was asked to submit his australian CPL by our great DGCA while he did all his flying in USA. An objection was raised in this issue during his conversion and he had to go to higher authorities to prove his point that he has never been to australia.
To protect myself i ll make sure i have (more than) what they are looking for..especially hours..
Also as Shanx said, u are legal as PIC even in India with all those hours..
But for god sake dont strike off any thing in ur log book.. it will cost u money ...
Happy Landings,
Ind Air 967.
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Hi Guys, I am a newbie here, but I am about to finish my training for FAA CPL and will be doing the paperwork as well as filling up my "Indian" logbook
I wish to get help from all of you here who have experience and knowledge of converting to DGCA and will greatly appreciate the same.
I am posting some of my immediate concerns:
IndAir967 said that DGCA requires 100hrs of solo time. Unfortunately I do not have 100hrs of solo time because it took me more time to complete my instrument rating.
But from what shanx said, I should be able to log my post PPL dual hours as PIC time in Indian logbook.
I want to know if there are any pilots here who had less than 100hrs solo time (but more than 100hrs PIC time) and were able to get their license converted without making any amendments to the Indian logbook.
And this may sound stupid but I am not sure whether I could use Jeppesen Professional Pilot logbook as an Indian logbook or do I need to buy a proper Indian logbook (Himalayan, Sterling etc). It would be much more convenient for me to buy a Jeppesen from a local pilot shop than to order an Indian book from one of those shabby online stores based in India.
Thanks in advance,
I wish to get help from all of you here who have experience and knowledge of converting to DGCA and will greatly appreciate the same.
I am posting some of my immediate concerns:
IndAir967 said that DGCA requires 100hrs of solo time. Unfortunately I do not have 100hrs of solo time because it took me more time to complete my instrument rating.
But from what shanx said, I should be able to log my post PPL dual hours as PIC time in Indian logbook.
I want to know if there are any pilots here who had less than 100hrs solo time (but more than 100hrs PIC time) and were able to get their license converted without making any amendments to the Indian logbook.
And this may sound stupid but I am not sure whether I could use Jeppesen Professional Pilot logbook as an Indian logbook or do I need to buy a proper Indian logbook (Himalayan, Sterling etc). It would be much more convenient for me to buy a Jeppesen from a local pilot shop than to order an Indian book from one of those shabby online stores based in India.
Thanks in advance,
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Hi IndAir967,
As much as I stand by whatever I have said above (thanks to the extra strong coffee), I guess in the end, it all boils down to the one biggest (yet saddest) fact that you have mentioned ... which is ...
not only DGCA or WPC .. so many government department staff do not even know some of the basic rules related to their day-to-day work !!
As much as I stand by whatever I have said above (thanks to the extra strong coffee
), I guess in the end, it all boils down to the one biggest (yet saddest) fact that you have mentioned ... which is ...
Because the fact of the matter is NOBODY KNOWS OR FOLLOWS THE RULES though u can find them on the book..
not only DGCA or WPC .. so many government department staff do not even know some of the basic rules related to their day-to-day work !!
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AviatorHere,
As I have said before, according to the rules (both FAR and Indian Aircraft's act of 1937) related to logbooks and logging of flight time, you are good on the number of PIC hours required.
more specifically, take a look at this rule in the A/c Act 1937, SCHEDULE II, section J ... related to experience requirements for a CPL(Aeroplane) :
(e) Experience— He shall produce evidence of having satisfactorily completed as a
pilot of an aeroplane within a period of five years immediately preceding the date of
application for licence not less than two hundred hours of flight time, which shall
include—
(i) not less than one hundred hours of flight time as Pilot-in-Command of
which not less than fifteen hours shall have been completed within a period of
six months immediately preceding the date of application for licence;
(ii) not less than twenty hours of cross-country flight time as Pilot-in-
Command including a cross-country flight of not less than three hundred
nautical miles in the course of which full stop landings at two different
aerodromes shall be made;
(iii) not less than ten hours of instrument time of which not more than five
hours may be on an approved simulator; and
(iv) not less than five hours of flight time by night including a minimum of ten
take-offs and ten landings as Pilot-in-Command as (sole manipulator of
controls) carried out within six months immediately precedings the date of
application for licence.
Please note how DGCA has CLEARLY mentioned "AS PILOT IN COMMAND" .. it does NOT have to be SOLO.
It can also be PIC because you are the sole manipulator of the controls .. since you are a Licenced pilot in the same category and class and/or type of the Airplane which you are flying with your instructor AND since you are occupying the LEFT SEAT which is the legal seat meant to be occupied by the required crew member and blah blah blah !!
So, the answer to your question is both YES and NO.
YES, going by whats written in the rule book, you can take a print out of the Aircraft's Act 1937 and highlight all these rules and argue with the babus if they raise any objections.
and my good wishes are with you.
but, then again .. also keep in mind that some babus will not like it if you try to act like a smart lawyer and teach them the rules which they are supposed to be knowing in the first place .. !
As I have said before, according to the rules (both FAR and Indian Aircraft's act of 1937) related to logbooks and logging of flight time, you are good on the number of PIC hours required.
more specifically, take a look at this rule in the A/c Act 1937, SCHEDULE II, section J ... related to experience requirements for a CPL(Aeroplane) :
(e) Experience— He shall produce evidence of having satisfactorily completed as a
pilot of an aeroplane within a period of five years immediately preceding the date of
application for licence not less than two hundred hours of flight time, which shall
include—
(i) not less than one hundred hours of flight time as Pilot-in-Command of
which not less than fifteen hours shall have been completed within a period of
six months immediately preceding the date of application for licence;
(ii) not less than twenty hours of cross-country flight time as Pilot-in-
Command including a cross-country flight of not less than three hundred
nautical miles in the course of which full stop landings at two different
aerodromes shall be made;
(iii) not less than ten hours of instrument time of which not more than five
hours may be on an approved simulator; and
(iv) not less than five hours of flight time by night including a minimum of ten
take-offs and ten landings as Pilot-in-Command as (sole manipulator of
controls) carried out within six months immediately precedings the date of
application for licence.
Please note how DGCA has CLEARLY mentioned "AS PILOT IN COMMAND" .. it does NOT have to be SOLO.
It can also be PIC because you are the sole manipulator of the controls .. since you are a Licenced pilot in the same category and class and/or type of the Airplane which you are flying with your instructor AND since you are occupying the LEFT SEAT which is the legal seat meant to be occupied by the required crew member and blah blah blah !!
So, the answer to your question is both YES and NO.
YES, going by whats written in the rule book, you can take a print out of the Aircraft's Act 1937 and highlight all these rules and argue with the babus if they raise any objections.
and my good wishes are with you.
but, then again .. also keep in mind that some babus will not like it if you try to act like a smart lawyer and teach them the rules which they are supposed to be knowing in the first place .. !
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but, then again .. also keep in mind that some babus will not like it if you try to act like a smart lawyer and teach them the rules which they are supposed to be knowing in the first place .. !
I dont know the rules as much as Shanx does and neither does those babus know them either..
All I know is if I have 100 hours SOLO Time they dont open their gob.
Which is exactly what i wanted..
Happy Landings,
IndAir967.
PS. : I had 150 hours of SOLO time when i had submitted for conversion..
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hey another noob question here, i understand that a type rating is required whenever the weight of the aircraft exceeds 12,500 pounds and is there any other reason why we should be doing type rating on an a/c
Thank you
Thank you
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Different nations, different rules.
FAA requires only Category and Class rating for a/c less than 12,500 lbs (5700 Kgs) and logbook endorsements if the a/c is Complex or High Performance.
In India, you require a type endorsement/rating for each aircraft you wish to act as PIC.
Thats why FAA certificates read "Airplane Single/Multi Engine Engine Land" etc .. whereas in India and most other JAA nations, you would also find different A/c endorsements stamped on the pilot licenses.
FAA requires only Category and Class rating for a/c less than 12,500 lbs (5700 Kgs) and logbook endorsements if the a/c is Complex or High Performance.
In India, you require a type endorsement/rating for each aircraft you wish to act as PIC.
Thats why FAA certificates read "Airplane Single/Multi Engine Engine Land" etc .. whereas in India and most other JAA nations, you would also find different A/c endorsements stamped on the pilot licenses.
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it is not difficult for any reasonably smart pilot to keep track of the number of hours flown/logged per month or week etc.
and anyway, there are plenty of software which do the same thing much in a more organized manner .. heck you can just keep a back up on MS Excel if you know the basics!
All this stuff about monthly summary, 3 months summary and stamp etc is ONLY if you're flying in India because only flying clubs in India practice this thing of getting monthly summary stamped etc.
It is not done elsewhere as far as I know.
and anyway, there are plenty of software which do the same thing much in a more organized manner .. heck you can just keep a back up on MS Excel if you know the basics!
All this stuff about monthly summary, 3 months summary and stamp etc is ONLY if you're flying in India because only flying clubs in India practice this thing of getting monthly summary stamped etc.
It is not done elsewhere as far as I know.
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quick question..
may sound stupid but oh well cant expect better at 2 am..
can any-one temme how to log the complex time in jeppesen logbooks.. as in should i make separate columns or what.. also.. after my endorsement i did a few solo flights.. and they are logged as pic in faa logbook.. soo how should i go about in indian thingy should i do like Complex + solo + pic.. or what? anywayz thanks ..
may sound stupid but oh well cant expect better at 2 am..
can any-one temme how to log the complex time in jeppesen logbooks.. as in should i make separate columns or what.. also.. after my endorsement i did a few solo flights.. and they are logged as pic in faa logbook.. soo how should i go about in indian thingy should i do like Complex + solo + pic.. or what? anywayz thanks ..
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and they are logged as pic in faa logbook.. soo how should i go about in indian thingy should i do like Complex + solo + pic.. or what? anywayz thanks ..
be it FARS or CARS u log it the same way...
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Ok guys,, I am ready to start filling up my Jeppesen Indian book. Which extra columns I need to have?
The first I've noticed is arrival and departure time,, anything else?
Also, is it necessary to fill in the name of instructor? if yes, can I put it in the remarks section?
If I am not asking for too much, can one of you please upload a scan copy of a page in your jeppesen Indian logbook? preferably one where you have logged multi hours. That will make it so much easier.
Thank you
The first I've noticed is arrival and departure time,, anything else?
Also, is it necessary to fill in the name of instructor? if yes, can I put it in the remarks section?
If I am not asking for too much, can one of you please upload a scan copy of a page in your jeppesen Indian logbook? preferably one where you have logged multi hours. That will make it so much easier.
Thank you
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@Everyone confused regarding logging of flight time.
The Americans are NOT doing anything different regarding logging of PIC time.
Just different terms and columns and way of putting it in the logbook.
In the USA, once you get your Private Certificate (PPL), you are a proper certified pilot and can act as PIC of any single engine land airplane. (Not high performance or Complex unless you have those logbook endorsements blah blah etc)
When you are training towards an Instrument Rating after your PPL, you are still very much PIC because you are sitting on the left seat and you are the SOLE MANIPULATOR OF THE CONTROLS.
The instructor is merely instructing you when you are doing the instrument training sorties/lessons and is there as a safety pilot since you are under the hood.
The instructor (USA CFI) logs PIC as well because the FARs (Regs) ALLOW HIM TO DO SO by virtue of his certificates. (ie .CFI)
hence in these flights you log the flight time under BOTH PIC AND UNDER THE DUAL received columns ... because there is no separate P1 UNDER SUPERVISION or P1 UNDER TRAINING COLUMN like those found in JAA/Indian logbooks.
If you have understood the above and also religiously gone through the Indian CARS, you'll understand and appreciate the fact that logging DUAL and PIC in the USA is equivalent to logging P1 UNDER TRAINING/SUPERVISION here in India.
BUT ... HERE LIES THE BIGGEST PROBLEM ...
The babus in the DGCA who are finally the big bosses/lords unfortunately are not very interested in reading the CARs and applying those regulations to their day to day work.
From my experience, if your luck is good you hopefully should not have a problem while converting your licence if all other papers are in order.
BUT I also know several people who have faced difficulties because of this issue (PIC time)
Hence, sadly and unfortunately, the SAFEST thing to do would be to talk to your school instructors/management about the nonsense and crap you guys face here back home. Tell them that unless the disgruntled and sadist officers see 100 SOLO hours, they will throw away your logbook into the bin.
Maintain a separate logbook and log all those PIC dual times as SOLO.
Most schools dont seem to have a problem with that as they tend to understand the hassles faced by Indian students upon returning home.
The Americans are NOT doing anything different regarding logging of PIC time.
Just different terms and columns and way of putting it in the logbook.
In the USA, once you get your Private Certificate (PPL), you are a proper certified pilot and can act as PIC of any single engine land airplane. (Not high performance or Complex unless you have those logbook endorsements blah blah etc)
When you are training towards an Instrument Rating after your PPL, you are still very much PIC because you are sitting on the left seat and you are the SOLE MANIPULATOR OF THE CONTROLS.
The instructor is merely instructing you when you are doing the instrument training sorties/lessons and is there as a safety pilot since you are under the hood.
The instructor (USA CFI) logs PIC as well because the FARs (Regs) ALLOW HIM TO DO SO by virtue of his certificates. (ie .CFI)
hence in these flights you log the flight time under BOTH PIC AND UNDER THE DUAL received columns ... because there is no separate P1 UNDER SUPERVISION or P1 UNDER TRAINING COLUMN like those found in JAA/Indian logbooks.
If you have understood the above and also religiously gone through the Indian CARS, you'll understand and appreciate the fact that logging DUAL and PIC in the USA is equivalent to logging P1 UNDER TRAINING/SUPERVISION here in India.
BUT ... HERE LIES THE BIGGEST PROBLEM ...
The babus in the DGCA who are finally the big bosses/lords unfortunately are not very interested in reading the CARs and applying those regulations to their day to day work.
From my experience, if your luck is good you hopefully should not have a problem while converting your licence if all other papers are in order.
BUT I also know several people who have faced difficulties because of this issue (PIC time)
Hence, sadly and unfortunately, the SAFEST thing to do would be to talk to your school instructors/management about the nonsense and crap you guys face here back home. Tell them that unless the disgruntled and sadist officers see 100 SOLO hours, they will throw away your logbook into the bin.
Maintain a separate logbook and log all those PIC dual times as SOLO.
Most schools dont seem to have a problem with that as they tend to understand the hassles faced by Indian students upon returning home.
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just a question shanx....
if you are training for the IR then how can you log those hours as PIC? If you are operating under IFR, then you need an IR in order to act as pilot in command.
Same deal as logging PIC in a complex aeroplane without having the endorsement i.e. illegal.
if you are training for the IR then how can you log those hours as PIC? If you are operating under IFR, then you need an IR in order to act as pilot in command.
Same deal as logging PIC in a complex aeroplane without having the endorsement i.e. illegal.
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just a question shanx....
if you are training for the IR then how can you log those hours as PIC? If you are operating under IFR, then you need an IR in order to act as pilot in command.
Same deal as logging PIC in a complex aeroplane without having the endorsement i.e. illegal.
if you are training for the IR then how can you log those hours as PIC? If you are operating under IFR, then you need an IR in order to act as pilot in command.
Same deal as logging PIC in a complex aeroplane without having the endorsement i.e. illegal.
When flying in the clouds ie under ACTUAL IMC, you are still PIC by virtue of your licence/certificate(PPL) and because you are sole manipulator of the controls. However in this case, your CFI gets to log PIC as well as the Instrument Approaches.
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Does the DGCA examine each and every entry in the logbook ?
Anyway, it is a widely accepted fact in India that the entries in a fresh CPL holder's logbook are not exactly matching his real world experience, especially if he/she did his training in India. hence no one bothers as long as all the multitudes of paperwork are in place.
The Airlines can anyway find out easily which candidate has genuinely worked hard and earned his CPL and which are the rotten ones who logged all their "flight time", while actually being in their apartment, ramp or other socializing places.