Military/civilian Airprox Incident
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Military/civilian Airprox Incident
Reported in today's Scottish Daily Mail (sorry can't handle URL thingie !)
17 June pm,25 miles west of Glasgow, altitude 5000 feet,Shorts 360 ex Islay for Glasgow and unspecified military jet. Airprox report filed with CAA. The Shorts is reported as being in receipt of air traffic service from Glasgow.
Same article says that between January and June 2001 there were 44 airprox incidents involving civilair transport (not all of them involving the military I hope) 33 of which were assessed as having no risk of collision. So thats 7 incidents a month and 11 incidents in total which involved a risk of collision - presumably ranging from "slight risk" to "high risk" .
Gulp !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
17 June pm,25 miles west of Glasgow, altitude 5000 feet,Shorts 360 ex Islay for Glasgow and unspecified military jet. Airprox report filed with CAA. The Shorts is reported as being in receipt of air traffic service from Glasgow.
Same article says that between January and June 2001 there were 44 airprox incidents involving civilair transport (not all of them involving the military I hope) 33 of which were assessed as having no risk of collision. So thats 7 incidents a month and 11 incidents in total which involved a risk of collision - presumably ranging from "slight risk" to "high risk" .
Gulp !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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PETERJ,
Airproxs are a fact of life, especially outside of controlled airspace. I do not wish to suggest that they are not significant and it's quite right that they are investigated and lessons learnt.
Unfortuantly, after the recent sad event in Germany the press will now pick on these events and may not provide a full and balanced picture.
Two web sites that will put things in context:-
http://www.caa.co.uk/caanews/airprox.asp
http://www.ukab.org.uk/
Airproxs are a fact of life, especially outside of controlled airspace. I do not wish to suggest that they are not significant and it's quite right that they are investigated and lessons learnt.
Unfortuantly, after the recent sad event in Germany the press will now pick on these events and may not provide a full and balanced picture.
Two web sites that will put things in context:-
http://www.caa.co.uk/caanews/airprox.asp
http://www.ukab.org.uk/
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egff.
You are quite correct in your summation that, in the aftermath of the German midair, the press will be susceptible to such stories.
Sadly, you are incorrect in your assertion that "lessons are being learnt". They are not.
However, and unfortunately, our military colleagues are guilty of an ever-increasing number of airprox incidents. Read the latest UKAB report and it quite clearly highlights what an increasing danger mil aircraft represent to all other ofroms of aviation.
You are quite correct in your summation that, in the aftermath of the German midair, the press will be susceptible to such stories.
Sadly, you are incorrect in your assertion that "lessons are being learnt". They are not.
However, and unfortunately, our military colleagues are guilty of an ever-increasing number of airprox incidents. Read the latest UKAB report and it quite clearly highlights what an increasing danger mil aircraft represent to all other ofroms of aviation.
if your flying close to our military pals operating area leaving your
weather radar on may give them a clue your around. fast jets
will detect it,and may be able to avoid you .
weather radar on may give them a clue your around. fast jets
will detect it,and may be able to avoid you .
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Do fast jets use their radar as traffic avoidance aid when buzzing around the countryside? I've had my share of close encounters with jets and I do not like to see my tax money that close..
and my wx radar is of no use in detecting traffic.
and my wx radar is of no use in detecting traffic.
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The chance of your weather radar giving a fast jet mate a cue as to where you are is not that high. Any Air Defence aircraft will be using its radar to avoid or engage all traffic within about 50 nms of the nose within its route of flight. Mud movers do have systems that can help but are not optimised for the task.
One of the snags as a civvy is that when a Fast Jet spots you on radar or visually in its operational area it will continue with the operation unless it believes it is unsafe to do so. What we would consider close i.e. inside 5nms, the average fast jet mate feels completely comfortable with. Don't forget that most of the time they are actually trying to achieve a visual merge with other aircraft with seperations of around 1000' laterally.
In those circumstances the aircraft will probably give a wing flash to show its presence and then will re-route around you whilst continuing to the target or merge. It will miss the 'stranger' coming the other way by a couple of miles and a thousand feet or so. However, if the stranger will be involved in the visual merge (dogfight) the formation leader will terminate the exercise and reset.
There have been mid-air collisions between FJ and light aircraft in the past but these have generally occured when the civil aircraft was operating below 500ft in an area of intense activity. When the fast jet is trying to miss the rocks, some of the pilots attention is understandably drawn from visual lookout.
If you are a civil aircraft operating in controlled airspace, you are quite likely to see FJ aircraft routing around the edges of that airspace. The crews will be flying just outside the line following a moving map tactical display.
Ghost
One of the snags as a civvy is that when a Fast Jet spots you on radar or visually in its operational area it will continue with the operation unless it believes it is unsafe to do so. What we would consider close i.e. inside 5nms, the average fast jet mate feels completely comfortable with. Don't forget that most of the time they are actually trying to achieve a visual merge with other aircraft with seperations of around 1000' laterally.
In those circumstances the aircraft will probably give a wing flash to show its presence and then will re-route around you whilst continuing to the target or merge. It will miss the 'stranger' coming the other way by a couple of miles and a thousand feet or so. However, if the stranger will be involved in the visual merge (dogfight) the formation leader will terminate the exercise and reset.
There have been mid-air collisions between FJ and light aircraft in the past but these have generally occured when the civil aircraft was operating below 500ft in an area of intense activity. When the fast jet is trying to miss the rocks, some of the pilots attention is understandably drawn from visual lookout.
If you are a civil aircraft operating in controlled airspace, you are quite likely to see FJ aircraft routing around the edges of that airspace. The crews will be flying just outside the line following a moving map tactical display.
Ghost
Last edited by Ghostflyer; 7th Jul 2002 at 06:49.
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My problem with the situation is that I don't know if the FJ has seen me, and if he (she?) has, what does the pilot expect ME to do..And even if I am comfortable with the separation, I still have to try to reason with a dozen or so upset pax who only saw something grey flashing past their window.
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S76Heavy,
Now being a civvy myself, I feel for you. For what its worth unless ATC tells you about their presence, 99% of the time when one goes past you won't even see it. Even with radar contact they are hard to spot coz thats their design.
You have no way of knowing whether or not he has seen you unless he waggles his wings which he would only be likely to do if transiting; not in the middle of an intercept. If you are worried though, all fast jets use the right hand traffic rule too. Good operators do try to make it clear that they have changed course by using 90° AOB to initiate the turn to give a heads up and enable you to see them easier.
If you start a turn to increase separation your big old wing flash and line of sight rate is going to give away your position visually beautifully. The worst thing that you can do is press to the merge and hope he has spotted you. As always early action helps.
I know there are times when you feel that you can't turn but if it wouldn't hurt your pax, you stay in your allocated airspace, make it a transient maneuvre and you think it would improve the situation, who is going to give you a hard time. If you have to take a big deviation then you will obviously have to coord with ATC if you are receiving a service. Out of interest that is how fast jets show their position to each other.
As to what to tell the pax, keep them informed just as you would were you hammering around the hold at LHR. Lots of the near miss horror stories in the press from pax around LHR come when they see an aircraft close aboard whilst whistling around the hold. A quick call from the crew would have explained it to them and put their minds at ease.
Sorry if this sounds like an egg sucking exercise I didn't mean it that way.
Ghost
Now being a civvy myself, I feel for you. For what its worth unless ATC tells you about their presence, 99% of the time when one goes past you won't even see it. Even with radar contact they are hard to spot coz thats their design.
You have no way of knowing whether or not he has seen you unless he waggles his wings which he would only be likely to do if transiting; not in the middle of an intercept. If you are worried though, all fast jets use the right hand traffic rule too. Good operators do try to make it clear that they have changed course by using 90° AOB to initiate the turn to give a heads up and enable you to see them easier.
If you start a turn to increase separation your big old wing flash and line of sight rate is going to give away your position visually beautifully. The worst thing that you can do is press to the merge and hope he has spotted you. As always early action helps.
I know there are times when you feel that you can't turn but if it wouldn't hurt your pax, you stay in your allocated airspace, make it a transient maneuvre and you think it would improve the situation, who is going to give you a hard time. If you have to take a big deviation then you will obviously have to coord with ATC if you are receiving a service. Out of interest that is how fast jets show their position to each other.
As to what to tell the pax, keep them informed just as you would were you hammering around the hold at LHR. Lots of the near miss horror stories in the press from pax around LHR come when they see an aircraft close aboard whilst whistling around the hold. A quick call from the crew would have explained it to them and put their minds at ease.
Sorry if this sounds like an egg sucking exercise I didn't mean it that way.
Ghost
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All these are valid concerns. Unfortunately, and I can say with some authority, the military do not see them as such.
I have worked (very) closely with some of the people involved with the above incidents, and I have to say I do not see any prospect of improvement in the situation for the foreseeable future. If anything, rather the opposite.
MOST of our colleagues in the FJ fraternity are thoroughly professional and competent and adult. Sad to say this is not true of all of them. It is time that this fact was recognised and addressed by those with the authority to do something about it instead of saying to themselves "boys will be boys - it's good for them to get it out of their systems - no real problems here - etc."
If you get anyone from the FJ fraternity on one side away from any possibility of being quoted, thet will confirm that all is not as it might be.
It is well past time that the RAF, the CAA, the AAIB and the UKAB stopped trying to fool themselves and everyone else that everything in the garden is rosy.
I have worked (very) closely with some of the people involved with the above incidents, and I have to say I do not see any prospect of improvement in the situation for the foreseeable future. If anything, rather the opposite.
MOST of our colleagues in the FJ fraternity are thoroughly professional and competent and adult. Sad to say this is not true of all of them. It is time that this fact was recognised and addressed by those with the authority to do something about it instead of saying to themselves "boys will be boys - it's good for them to get it out of their systems - no real problems here - etc."
If you get anyone from the FJ fraternity on one side away from any possibility of being quoted, thet will confirm that all is not as it might be.
It is well past time that the RAF, the CAA, the AAIB and the UKAB stopped trying to fool themselves and everyone else that everything in the garden is rosy.
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Unfortunately Capt'n Stable, the same is true in the USA. Even though very large parts of the US airspace are set aside for military operations, FAR too many of these guys regularally traverse civvy airspace and, like the incident not so long ago in the Tampa area, never call ATC to advise accordingly.
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Ghostflyer,
thanks for the lengthy reply. As I fly a helicopter on offshore flights, even if I bank hard, I won't show that much more profile than when flying straight and level. My airspeed is obviously limited and we do operate in controlled airspace as well as on special routes in uncontrolled airspace. Unfortunately, there are several military ranges nearby and the jets have no obligation to talk to ATC relevant to our flights. In the most extreme event, I had a heads up call from ATC 2 seconds before they went past me on opposite tracks, they had just zoomed up from out of their range and crossed my track, one at my level a few hundred feet away, the other one underneath. NOT FUNNY! Especially as our radar service is SSR only.
Capt Stable, I am still waiting for an official reply to the airprox report, now 3 years ago. It seems as though the military just don't give a flying F*** and it really upsets me that they do not take these things seriously. Not even after a couple of collisions between fighters and civil traffic, with fatalities.
There is only so much we can do to avoid tragedy, being low and slow..
thanks for the lengthy reply. As I fly a helicopter on offshore flights, even if I bank hard, I won't show that much more profile than when flying straight and level. My airspeed is obviously limited and we do operate in controlled airspace as well as on special routes in uncontrolled airspace. Unfortunately, there are several military ranges nearby and the jets have no obligation to talk to ATC relevant to our flights. In the most extreme event, I had a heads up call from ATC 2 seconds before they went past me on opposite tracks, they had just zoomed up from out of their range and crossed my track, one at my level a few hundred feet away, the other one underneath. NOT FUNNY! Especially as our radar service is SSR only.
Capt Stable, I am still waiting for an official reply to the airprox report, now 3 years ago. It seems as though the military just don't give a flying F*** and it really upsets me that they do not take these things seriously. Not even after a couple of collisions between fighters and civil traffic, with fatalities.
There is only so much we can do to avoid tragedy, being low and slow..
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"There have been mid-air collisions between FJ and light aircraft in the past but these have generally occured when the civil aircraft was operating below 500ft in an area of intense activity. When the fast jet is trying to miss the rocks, some of the pilots attention is understandably drawn from visual lookout. "
What a way to describe a pilot going about his business quite legitemately. The military do what they want when they want (or so it seems). Perhaps they should be reminded that their sole purpose is to PROTECT us from any enemy and not for them to be the enemy. Any AAIB report between civilian and military a/c inevitabely comes down on the side of the military and I for one would like to know why. Take the case in Wales where a Cessna was hit from about the 7 o'clock position by a FJ and the resultant deaths were attributed by the AAIB as "failure of the pilots to see each other" How in God's name can you see something coming from that angle at 500knots? Even using the Low Level notification systems does not ensure you are avoided by the military as has been seen time and time again.
What a way to describe a pilot going about his business quite legitemately. The military do what they want when they want (or so it seems). Perhaps they should be reminded that their sole purpose is to PROTECT us from any enemy and not for them to be the enemy. Any AAIB report between civilian and military a/c inevitabely comes down on the side of the military and I for one would like to know why. Take the case in Wales where a Cessna was hit from about the 7 o'clock position by a FJ and the resultant deaths were attributed by the AAIB as "failure of the pilots to see each other" How in God's name can you see something coming from that angle at 500knots? Even using the Low Level notification systems does not ensure you are avoided by the military as has been seen time and time again.
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I have to differ, Working.
The UKAB have now (thankfully) started in the latest Report to attribute the blame. And the story it tells is not good news for the FJ mates. Reading between the lines, it shows some of them in a (justifiably) poor light.
Having been part of the investigation into a few mil/civil encounters, it appears that most of the time they are caused by going against briefing - either not paying attention, or not understanding the briefing, or simply not caring and "buzzing" civil traffic by attempting simulated intercepts on them.
Yes, yes, ghost, I know that everyone denies officially that such illegal practice intercepts happen. But everyone inside the FJ fraternity also know that, actually, they DO - and often.
Liaison between military and civil controllers is poor in the extreme, with civil controllers finding it very difficult indeed to contact whoever is controlling a particular blip on their screen and, compared to many civil aircraft, many mil jets have very limited equipment thanks to Her Majesty's Government wishing to save a couple of bob here and there.
There is also a very poor attitude on the part of some pilots on both sides of the mil/civil divide, insisting upon thinking of Class F/G airspace as "theirs". It is not.
It is practically impossible to get to quite a few regional airports without going through Class G airspace. This needs to change. There need to be some protected routes. This will not stop the FJs going over or under such airways, or through with permission and crossing clearance from the controlling authority. CANP also needs beefing up. And finally, there needs to be severe penalties for some of the high jinks that lots of us have seen.
The UKAB have now (thankfully) started in the latest Report to attribute the blame. And the story it tells is not good news for the FJ mates. Reading between the lines, it shows some of them in a (justifiably) poor light.
Having been part of the investigation into a few mil/civil encounters, it appears that most of the time they are caused by going against briefing - either not paying attention, or not understanding the briefing, or simply not caring and "buzzing" civil traffic by attempting simulated intercepts on them.
Yes, yes, ghost, I know that everyone denies officially that such illegal practice intercepts happen. But everyone inside the FJ fraternity also know that, actually, they DO - and often.
Liaison between military and civil controllers is poor in the extreme, with civil controllers finding it very difficult indeed to contact whoever is controlling a particular blip on their screen and, compared to many civil aircraft, many mil jets have very limited equipment thanks to Her Majesty's Government wishing to save a couple of bob here and there.
There is also a very poor attitude on the part of some pilots on both sides of the mil/civil divide, insisting upon thinking of Class F/G airspace as "theirs". It is not.
It is practically impossible to get to quite a few regional airports without going through Class G airspace. This needs to change. There need to be some protected routes. This will not stop the FJs going over or under such airways, or through with permission and crossing clearance from the controlling authority. CANP also needs beefing up. And finally, there needs to be severe penalties for some of the high jinks that lots of us have seen.
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Captain Stable, re your previous, unfortunately they happened over another (European) country's territory..but I agree, it's not good.
And as Workinhard states correctly, how can you see anything moving at 500 Kts from behind? But how much time do I have if I do see him approaching me from the front at a combined speed of 500 kts? Has anybody done the maths on that ?
A bit off topic, would the need for buzzing and showing off of some jet pilots have anything to do with the relatively low hours the military fly compared to commercial aviation?
And as Workinhard states correctly, how can you see anything moving at 500 Kts from behind? But how much time do I have if I do see him approaching me from the front at a combined speed of 500 kts? Has anybody done the maths on that ?
A bit off topic, would the need for buzzing and showing off of some jet pilots have anything to do with the relatively low hours the military fly compared to commercial aviation?
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We were having a discussion about this problem as our routes are close to military practice zones. We fly RIS /RAS and with that are provided with some cover, but comparing notes we all have AT LEAST 2-3 "avoiding action" EACH with military a month. My concern was such to raise it as a topic with ATC forum. Very helpful they were too. Yes frighteningly sometimes at 5 nm "passing down your left side" we see....NOTHING. Sometimes we see them in advance of ATC positioning (once passing below and ahead of us, when ATC said they were behind going away)....... of course because of the lag in ATC radar didn't pick up his 180 turn. The wx radar does help in a way as you can see the interrogation traces come up. But does that paint the full picture. I don't know.
I applaud any improvements that could be made. Military have to practice, and one would like to think that they aren't all doing TC's Top Gun antics. Certainly in LATCC military are integrated with civilian controllers, but anyone caring to watch the North Sea area (Clacton) as I had the chance to, will realise the complexity of having to deal with everything from fat alberts, to dogfights overspilling out of DAs, low level around the Kent coast, all interspersed with civilian traffic.
Guess we'll still keep good lookout but frankly relative velocities at 900kts+???? What chances.
I applaud any improvements that could be made. Military have to practice, and one would like to think that they aren't all doing TC's Top Gun antics. Certainly in LATCC military are integrated with civilian controllers, but anyone caring to watch the North Sea area (Clacton) as I had the chance to, will realise the complexity of having to deal with everything from fat alberts, to dogfights overspilling out of DAs, low level around the Kent coast, all interspersed with civilian traffic.
Guess we'll still keep good lookout but frankly relative velocities at 900kts+???? What chances.
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Stable,
Tosh! What is an 'illegal practice intercept' Years ago, there used to be a slot on flight plans that you could fill in asking to get 'embellished'. This meant that you wanted to be intercepted, not now.
FJs do not go looking for civilian aircraft to intercept, on all but about 10 of over 3000+ sorties in the UK FIR I had someone that was cooperating with me. i.e. We had agreed to meet so that I could carryout offensive maneuvring and he could perform his defensive tactics. An FJ mate really doesn't have any interest in meeting some mate that wants to fly straight and level; there is ZERO training value.
If there is civilian traffic in a play area at the same time as their playmates FJs will 'Haul Off' the strangers once the traffic is identified.
Think about it this way would you rather have someone who knows you are coming initiate an intercept but then abort it whilst maintaining separation. OR, would you prefer some mate who is clueless to just blunder through your path.
As an aside, separation is separation, 99.99999% of the time separation is maintained. When a civvy pilot or ATC makes a mistake it is seen as 'A professional error'. When an FJ pilot makes a mistake it is 'FJ Cowboys wazzing the FIR'.
The height of arrogance that I saw was the way in which some civil guys wouldn't recoqnise the confines of a MATZ and would only accept that it was like other airfields in the open FIR with a 2 mile circle; the rest advisory. Talk about lack of understanding! A Cessna 150 and a Tornado have slightly different performance. How would Heathrow feel if it was 'wazzed' by Cessna 150s? If an FJ mate gets within 10 miles of an 'advisory airway' the world is up in arms.
I am now a civvy pilot and I can understand how both parties make mistakes. If you are carrying out a demanding job, and like it or lump it, most modern civvy aviation isn't*, you are bound to make more mistakes. (*Apologies to North Sea Rotary Guys) In my new environment, it horrifies me how often 'professional pilots' screw up even the basic things.
What I see is the root cause of all of these problems is lack of understanding on both sides of the fence.
Ghost
Tosh! What is an 'illegal practice intercept' Years ago, there used to be a slot on flight plans that you could fill in asking to get 'embellished'. This meant that you wanted to be intercepted, not now.
FJs do not go looking for civilian aircraft to intercept, on all but about 10 of over 3000+ sorties in the UK FIR I had someone that was cooperating with me. i.e. We had agreed to meet so that I could carryout offensive maneuvring and he could perform his defensive tactics. An FJ mate really doesn't have any interest in meeting some mate that wants to fly straight and level; there is ZERO training value.
If there is civilian traffic in a play area at the same time as their playmates FJs will 'Haul Off' the strangers once the traffic is identified.
Think about it this way would you rather have someone who knows you are coming initiate an intercept but then abort it whilst maintaining separation. OR, would you prefer some mate who is clueless to just blunder through your path.
As an aside, separation is separation, 99.99999% of the time separation is maintained. When a civvy pilot or ATC makes a mistake it is seen as 'A professional error'. When an FJ pilot makes a mistake it is 'FJ Cowboys wazzing the FIR'.
The height of arrogance that I saw was the way in which some civil guys wouldn't recoqnise the confines of a MATZ and would only accept that it was like other airfields in the open FIR with a 2 mile circle; the rest advisory. Talk about lack of understanding! A Cessna 150 and a Tornado have slightly different performance. How would Heathrow feel if it was 'wazzed' by Cessna 150s? If an FJ mate gets within 10 miles of an 'advisory airway' the world is up in arms.
I am now a civvy pilot and I can understand how both parties make mistakes. If you are carrying out a demanding job, and like it or lump it, most modern civvy aviation isn't*, you are bound to make more mistakes. (*Apologies to North Sea Rotary Guys) In my new environment, it horrifies me how often 'professional pilots' screw up even the basic things.
What I see is the root cause of all of these problems is lack of understanding on both sides of the fence.
Ghost
Last edited by Ghostflyer; 15th Jul 2002 at 08:33.