Taking less than flight planned fuel
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Was surprised once when approaching EDDM, with those high quality weather-experts, to find a lot of CBs hanging over the place instead of the predicted CAVOK; first we had to hold for some time, then during the approach a new CB came up a bit too quickly, and we initiated a GA due to a speed-increase of 40 knots in 2 seconds. Glad we had some precautionary extra fuel on board, because due to the CBs we couldn't land instantly after the GA!
I personally think it is insane to go away with less than minimum, there is no reason to do so; even better: there are 100s of reasons to take a little bit extra on board, even when the weather is good!
I had a fight with a captain once because he wanted to leave with minimum fuel, and I had several arguments to take some more on board (weather, traffic situation, non-ideal alternate etc.). He had no reply to my arguments, only that he personally felt fine with minimum only. After 5 minutes of trying I got up and said that if he wanted to fly unsafely, I wouldn't join the party. Before I could leave the cockpit, the captain had already agreed to take some more fuel with us. And yes, when we got a straight in at destination and landed with 1000kgs more on board than necessary, the captain said "see I was right" about a 1000 times, but in the event of a GA or diversion, I would be the one who could say exactly the same.
Also: If you feel unsafe: LEAVE!! Try to convince your skipper with arguments, and if he doesn't listen, and has no valid arguments for himself, then GET OUT. There is no chief pilot who will punish you, if you don't want to leave with less (!) than the minimum calculated (and legal!) fuel.
P77
I personally think it is insane to go away with less than minimum, there is no reason to do so; even better: there are 100s of reasons to take a little bit extra on board, even when the weather is good!
I had a fight with a captain once because he wanted to leave with minimum fuel, and I had several arguments to take some more on board (weather, traffic situation, non-ideal alternate etc.). He had no reply to my arguments, only that he personally felt fine with minimum only. After 5 minutes of trying I got up and said that if he wanted to fly unsafely, I wouldn't join the party. Before I could leave the cockpit, the captain had already agreed to take some more fuel with us. And yes, when we got a straight in at destination and landed with 1000kgs more on board than necessary, the captain said "see I was right" about a 1000 times, but in the event of a GA or diversion, I would be the one who could say exactly the same.
Also: If you feel unsafe: LEAVE!! Try to convince your skipper with arguments, and if he doesn't listen, and has no valid arguments for himself, then GET OUT. There is no chief pilot who will punish you, if you don't want to leave with less (!) than the minimum calculated (and legal!) fuel.
P77
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Re: Taking less than flight planned fuel
Pandora,
Sounds like you need to have a long discussion with your company chief pilot, talk about STUPID, INSANE, let alone endangering the passengers. Or talk with what ever governmental agency overlooks airline safety, this pilot has to be stopped before he makes the evening news.
Another suggestion, go to the NASA ASR web site and print out some stories about pilots running out of fuel (there are several about air carriers running out of fuel). Then the next time your favorite captain decides to go with less than planned fuel, hand him a few copies of the ASR Reports, and say I don't want to make the evening news like these guys did.
Finally, if that doesn't work don't get into the cockpit with him, I sure as hell wouldn't.
Mike
Sounds like you need to have a long discussion with your company chief pilot, talk about STUPID, INSANE, let alone endangering the passengers. Or talk with what ever governmental agency overlooks airline safety, this pilot has to be stopped before he makes the evening news.
Another suggestion, go to the NASA ASR web site and print out some stories about pilots running out of fuel (there are several about air carriers running out of fuel). Then the next time your favorite captain decides to go with less than planned fuel, hand him a few copies of the ASR Reports, and say I don't want to make the evening news like these guys did.
Finally, if that doesn't work don't get into the cockpit with him, I sure as hell wouldn't.
Mike
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Wasn't there a discussion of this on CHIRP or somewhere recently?. I seem to recall the outcome was that (in the uk) it was in fact in breach of the conditions set out in a companies AOC and therefore illegal.
The AOC is granted on the basis that a proven and reliable system of fuel planning is in place for each flight.That may be a complex manual PLOG or more comonly a CFP (sword etc).You can't just ignore the data suplied as that data has been judged to be integral to the legal operation of every flight. In flight replanning / decision point procedures etc are a different thing and must be described in your companies approved manuals (also a requirement of the AOC)
The AOC is granted on the basis that a proven and reliable system of fuel planning is in place for each flight.That may be a complex manual PLOG or more comonly a CFP (sword etc).You can't just ignore the data suplied as that data has been judged to be integral to the legal operation of every flight. In flight replanning / decision point procedures etc are a different thing and must be described in your companies approved manuals (also a requirement of the AOC)
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Hi Pandora,
Others have covered most of the relevant points, may I just raise a couple?
Please don't think I'm having a go at you, because I'm not, but I do think you need to be able to answer them, because they are likely to be some of the first ones asked by the CAA / BA in the event of a formal investigation into a fuel incident.
1) If you thought that the fuel flight plan was illegal (as opposed to just being less than you would have liked to have taken) then why did you go?
I know it's a lot easier said than done, but if you can't see how the final fuel figure was arrived at, and are not sure that it is legally sufficient, don't go.
It's your licence on the line as well, if something goes wrong.
2) What happened about the PAN call hat FCOs required you to make? Only 3 minutes from reserve fuel would appear to make it likely that you may land with less than reserve fuel remaining.
I ask because, if you report someone formally, you must be sure that you have discharged all your licence responsibilities correctly, otherwise you may get dragged into the manure as well.
I'm no suggesting you didn't, just asking!
Others have covered most of the relevant points, may I just raise a couple?
Please don't think I'm having a go at you, because I'm not, but I do think you need to be able to answer them, because they are likely to be some of the first ones asked by the CAA / BA in the event of a formal investigation into a fuel incident.
1) If you thought that the fuel flight plan was illegal (as opposed to just being less than you would have liked to have taken) then why did you go?
I know it's a lot easier said than done, but if you can't see how the final fuel figure was arrived at, and are not sure that it is legally sufficient, don't go.
It's your licence on the line as well, if something goes wrong.
2) What happened about the PAN call hat FCOs required you to make? Only 3 minutes from reserve fuel would appear to make it likely that you may land with less than reserve fuel remaining.
I ask because, if you report someone formally, you must be sure that you have discharged all your licence responsibilities correctly, otherwise you may get dragged into the manure as well.
I'm no suggesting you didn't, just asking!
Join Date: May 2002
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just a small thought guys
if atc say no delay, this could still mean a hold of up to 20 mins, certainly within the uk ( not sure about non uk )
most times when this short term holding occurs atc will say how long they anticpate you to hold, but not always
cheers
prof
if atc say no delay, this could still mean a hold of up to 20 mins, certainly within the uk ( not sure about non uk )
most times when this short term holding occurs atc will say how long they anticpate you to hold, but not always
cheers
prof
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Deadey Dick,
I agree that your questions are relevant and I fully understand that I would be responsible if an incident occurred. However I do seem to have a problem with this one captain and it was to prevent it happening again that I asked my questions here.
To answer your first question; of the two instances I mentioned, one took the correct flight planned fuel but nothing more, though I would have liked more. The second took a bit below flight planned fuel and when I expressed discomfort my relatively small amount of experience was held up for comparison by the captain to his decades of flying without killing himself. I know that these are not excuses but in the circumstances the patronising tone set by the captain and various other incidents on 2 earlier sectors (which do not have an effect on the fuel decision but had started to lead to a breakdown in communication and undermining of my confidence) meant that it was becoming increasingly difficult for me to assert myself to him. Now anyone out there who knows me will know that I am very outspoken and don't usuallly have a problem stating my opinion. I have asked here how to deal with this situation in the future, as my own experience is limited compared to some people here, and have been given some very good replies. In the future my FCO's will be out of the library in a flash, or I will refuse to stay on the aircraft. This will be followed up by a Flight Crew Report once the captain has put the extra fuel on because I can't see even him being daft enough to delay a flight for 300 kg.
Your second question. We had 3 minutes to reserve fuel once on stand. I would definitely have made a Pan call had we gone around or had we been asked to go again round the hold. I didn't make the call in the hold because we did have the amount that in good weather would have been enough. As it was we carried out the world's longest SRA. Again the attitude of the captain was one of not wanting to discuss the obvious, though I did try initiating the debate, and I resorted to making the list of planned actions in my own head. Who knows if he was doing the same. As is being currently and actively discussed on another thread in this forum, it is very difficult for an FO to take controlling action from a captain (especially one who has been flying for the company since befroe I was born, and likes to remind me of the fact).
Again these are not meant to be excuses, but just an insight that I have analysed my actions, found them wanting in some way and am trying to fix the holes in my knowledge. My bag of luck is a little bit emptier, and I want to make sure my bag of experience has been topped up by the same amount.
I agree that your questions are relevant and I fully understand that I would be responsible if an incident occurred. However I do seem to have a problem with this one captain and it was to prevent it happening again that I asked my questions here.
To answer your first question; of the two instances I mentioned, one took the correct flight planned fuel but nothing more, though I would have liked more. The second took a bit below flight planned fuel and when I expressed discomfort my relatively small amount of experience was held up for comparison by the captain to his decades of flying without killing himself. I know that these are not excuses but in the circumstances the patronising tone set by the captain and various other incidents on 2 earlier sectors (which do not have an effect on the fuel decision but had started to lead to a breakdown in communication and undermining of my confidence) meant that it was becoming increasingly difficult for me to assert myself to him. Now anyone out there who knows me will know that I am very outspoken and don't usuallly have a problem stating my opinion. I have asked here how to deal with this situation in the future, as my own experience is limited compared to some people here, and have been given some very good replies. In the future my FCO's will be out of the library in a flash, or I will refuse to stay on the aircraft. This will be followed up by a Flight Crew Report once the captain has put the extra fuel on because I can't see even him being daft enough to delay a flight for 300 kg.
Your second question. We had 3 minutes to reserve fuel once on stand. I would definitely have made a Pan call had we gone around or had we been asked to go again round the hold. I didn't make the call in the hold because we did have the amount that in good weather would have been enough. As it was we carried out the world's longest SRA. Again the attitude of the captain was one of not wanting to discuss the obvious, though I did try initiating the debate, and I resorted to making the list of planned actions in my own head. Who knows if he was doing the same. As is being currently and actively discussed on another thread in this forum, it is very difficult for an FO to take controlling action from a captain (especially one who has been flying for the company since befroe I was born, and likes to remind me of the fact).
Again these are not meant to be excuses, but just an insight that I have analysed my actions, found them wanting in some way and am trying to fix the holes in my knowledge. My bag of luck is a little bit emptier, and I want to make sure my bag of experience has been topped up by the same amount.
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Pandora,
Taking less than required fuel is UNSAFE , some pilots may cheat death for years but eventually they will end up becoming a statistic. Our hope is that when they do they don't take anyone else with them.
Mike
FWA
Taking less than required fuel is UNSAFE , some pilots may cheat death for years but eventually they will end up becoming a statistic. Our hope is that when they do they don't take anyone else with them.
Mike
FWA
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Ah ! The old "Never been involved in a fatal accident in all my years..."line. What a load of utter mince!!
There is not a single pilot flying anywhere in the world no matter how good or bad who has been involved in a fatal accident.
There is not a single pilot flying anywhere in the world no matter how good or bad who has been involved in a fatal accident.
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Pandora,
Thanks for the replies.
...these are not meant to be excuses, but just an insight that I have analysed my actions, found them wanting in some way and am trying to fix the holes in my knowledge. My bag of luck is a little bit emptier, and I want to make sure my bag of experience has been topped up by the same amount...
A very professional approach, one that will stand you in good stead during your aviation career.
Like all of us after something has happened in the air that we didn't like, you're now a little older, a little wiser, and better prepared for a similar incident should it happen again.
We've all been there! Best wishes for the future.
Dick
Thanks for the replies.
...these are not meant to be excuses, but just an insight that I have analysed my actions, found them wanting in some way and am trying to fix the holes in my knowledge. My bag of luck is a little bit emptier, and I want to make sure my bag of experience has been topped up by the same amount...
A very professional approach, one that will stand you in good stead during your aviation career.
Like all of us after something has happened in the air that we didn't like, you're now a little older, a little wiser, and better prepared for a similar incident should it happen again.
We've all been there! Best wishes for the future.
Dick
