F/O reports incompetent captain in Emirates
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LaH...you're getting ahead of yourself...get your licences first and then talk to us! Let's face it, you might be selling used cars in 12 mths time!
Cerberus...spot on!
Who likes a "dobber", I don't! Could see no need for them when I was an F/O, can see no need for them now! Anybody out there who disagrees...you're in the wrong business! Get out of aviation and get into politics,law,finance or some other scumbag existence...but get out of aviation...believe me, you're not wanted...you're bad news!!
Cerberus...spot on!
Who likes a "dobber", I don't! Could see no need for them when I was an F/O, can see no need for them now! Anybody out there who disagrees...you're in the wrong business! Get out of aviation and get into politics,law,finance or some other scumbag existence...but get out of aviation...believe me, you're not wanted...you're bad news!!
Last edited by amos2; 6th Jun 2002 at 09:54.
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I am disgusted at your response and attitude towards me. So much for you being a captain. This is my point. With your 'whatever' attitude towards me, who knows what your like towards F/Os.
And as for selling cars, you ar**hole. That is so rude, and if you think you have a point, think again. Ive wanted this all my life, and pi** offs like you aint gonna dampen my commitment to the job. Hope you're retired by the time i start flying...
Dan...
And as for selling cars, you ar**hole. That is so rude, and if you think you have a point, think again. Ive wanted this all my life, and pi** offs like you aint gonna dampen my commitment to the job. Hope you're retired by the time i start flying...
Dan...
Chief PPRuNe Pilot
WARNING
The next person who finds themselves unable to discuss the topic and delves into personal abuse will find themselves banned and all their previous posts deleted. If you can't respond to the argument then don't bother posting anything because resorting to immature insults is not acceptable. Grow up!
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Lunar, CRM is "Cockpit (or Crew) Resource Management".
It has nothing to do with whether an FO justifiably or otherwise has a word with management about a Captain.
It is nothing to do with everyone on a flight deck having a nice, warm feeling about the person sitting next to them.
It is use of all resources available to you to complete a flight safely, legally and expeditiously.
Yes, it is taught. There is an initial course and then you are required to have annual refresher training.
As far as personality differences on the flight deck are concerned, it happens, as it happens in all other walks of life. Professionalism, however, dictates that you don't let that get in the way of a safe flight. You save arguments until you're on the ground. Thereafter, if you and a skipper want to go round the back of the building and resolve your differences, do so.
Similarly, personal problems can weigh heavily on a pilot's mind. A new baby, or divorce, or bereavement, or money troubles can all distract. Whilst these would not usually result in a pilot being unfit to fly, it is wise to give the other guy a "heads up" to let him know you may be a little distracted and to keep an eye on you. I did this with FO's I flew with just after my mother died. It's not a big deal. If it is, then there is nothing to stop a pilot requesting a bit of leave. If they know the circumstances, most Fleet Managers would be completely happy to grant it.
And finally, as far as discussing pilots' actions publicly, there is a fine line to be drawn. There's only one person who knows where it should be drawn, and he forgot. There's an old adage - "Learn from others' mistakes, because you won't have time to make them all yourself". Aviation works very much by sharing information, learning from other incidents and putting in place systems to prevent an incident that occurred in another airline recurring in yours. It's called being proactive. However, "publicly" is taking it a little far. Nobody within aviation that I know, for example, would be happy about CVR or Cockpit Video recordings of incidents being played on public radio or TV stations. The public have a right to know how an accident happened. They do not have the right to hear all the gruesome details of a pilot's last few minutes of life, nor do they have the right to those tapes to use in any lawsuit against his relatives and estate. Nor, further, should they be used in any criminal action against flightcrew.
Hope this all answers your questions.
It has nothing to do with whether an FO justifiably or otherwise has a word with management about a Captain.
It is nothing to do with everyone on a flight deck having a nice, warm feeling about the person sitting next to them.
It is use of all resources available to you to complete a flight safely, legally and expeditiously.
Yes, it is taught. There is an initial course and then you are required to have annual refresher training.
As far as personality differences on the flight deck are concerned, it happens, as it happens in all other walks of life. Professionalism, however, dictates that you don't let that get in the way of a safe flight. You save arguments until you're on the ground. Thereafter, if you and a skipper want to go round the back of the building and resolve your differences, do so.
Similarly, personal problems can weigh heavily on a pilot's mind. A new baby, or divorce, or bereavement, or money troubles can all distract. Whilst these would not usually result in a pilot being unfit to fly, it is wise to give the other guy a "heads up" to let him know you may be a little distracted and to keep an eye on you. I did this with FO's I flew with just after my mother died. It's not a big deal. If it is, then there is nothing to stop a pilot requesting a bit of leave. If they know the circumstances, most Fleet Managers would be completely happy to grant it.
And finally, as far as discussing pilots' actions publicly, there is a fine line to be drawn. There's only one person who knows where it should be drawn, and he forgot. There's an old adage - "Learn from others' mistakes, because you won't have time to make them all yourself". Aviation works very much by sharing information, learning from other incidents and putting in place systems to prevent an incident that occurred in another airline recurring in yours. It's called being proactive. However, "publicly" is taking it a little far. Nobody within aviation that I know, for example, would be happy about CVR or Cockpit Video recordings of incidents being played on public radio or TV stations. The public have a right to know how an accident happened. They do not have the right to hear all the gruesome details of a pilot's last few minutes of life, nor do they have the right to those tapes to use in any lawsuit against his relatives and estate. Nor, further, should they be used in any criminal action against flightcrew.
Hope this all answers your questions.
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Finally...
Well, thanks Captain Stable. I got the answers i seeked after three posts from others. I cannot believe myself that i had to be rude to another member. Captain PPRuNe, you have a point, but must not get annoyed and say what you said if it wasn't for people being rude to young wannabe's asking simple questions. I am very strong minded, and he was completely out of order. Should a simple answer be to complicated? I will say no more.
Smooth skies,
Dan...
Smooth skies,
Dan...
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Now that we have a few broad strokes on the personalities involved,courtesy of Cerebrus,the picture becomes clearer.
Pedantic book-worms dont mix well with the archetypal airmanship-oriented airline pilot.These pedants are usually unsure of their own abilities and seek refuge in the minutiae of the SOP manual as a defence mechanism.
Give me a pilot who knows his aircraft and who can extricate himself from a seemingly impossible situation using airmanship and improvisation(an often underrrated attribute for pilots).You can usually spot them.They might have a worn copy of the maintenance manual in their flight bag or they might spend twenty minutes in the hangar when the aircraft goes through a C check.Cognitive decision-making comes through experience and broad-based knowledge and understanding of the equipment you're operating.SOP rats excel through rote and very little imagination.Are SOP's important?Absolutely...but they have their place.Naturally,the two are not mutually-exclusive but one requires a cursory acknowledgement,the other is all-encompassing and saves lives.
Pedantic book-worms dont mix well with the archetypal airmanship-oriented airline pilot.These pedants are usually unsure of their own abilities and seek refuge in the minutiae of the SOP manual as a defence mechanism.
Give me a pilot who knows his aircraft and who can extricate himself from a seemingly impossible situation using airmanship and improvisation(an often underrrated attribute for pilots).You can usually spot them.They might have a worn copy of the maintenance manual in their flight bag or they might spend twenty minutes in the hangar when the aircraft goes through a C check.Cognitive decision-making comes through experience and broad-based knowledge and understanding of the equipment you're operating.SOP rats excel through rote and very little imagination.Are SOP's important?Absolutely...but they have their place.Naturally,the two are not mutually-exclusive but one requires a cursory acknowledgement,the other is all-encompassing and saves lives.
Grandpa Aerotart
Once upon a time at an airline I worked at we had a Captain who was old school without being old enough to have been around then.
He was an advanced alcoholic,
He was a known problem child...had been when he was an F/O and had been the bane of many an F/O since gaining his command.
The airline had always been a 'Captain's Airline' ie F/O's are seen and not heard. The older Captains, many of whom had NEVER been F/Os themselves actually referred to us as 'Dogs'.
Many years before when the airline sent it's first batch of crews to an early version of CRM this Captain was actually punched out at the bar the night before the course began...the puncher was sacked but the management pilots regretted not terminating the punchee ever after.
As an F/O I had joined this airline with 7000 hours within the small 3rd world country that it operated in...ie I knew the place like the back of my hand.
I was always a relaxed chap who never worried too much about the minutae and was always more interested in an enjoyable day spent doing 35 minute sectors around the mountains and coasts of this beautiful country in our company F28s. My attitude was stay close to SOPs, don't try and frighten/kill me, give me my fair share of sectors and I'll do my very best to be the best F/O you've ever flown with. My attitude then is as now(that I occupy the RHS generally only when conducting Checking/Training) the only effort worth anything is the team effort..If you are having a bad day it is my duty to make up the difference, when I'm having a bad day it is your duty to do the same. There are no such words in the cockpit as 'you' or 'me' only 'us' and 'we'.
Other F/Os had mentioned to me that among most of the Captains I was deemed very good at my job and pleasant to share a cockpit with...to my mind the ultimate professional compliment.
At some stage it became obvious to me that I was flying with this drunken idiot a lot more than 'rostering chance' would dictate...talking to the other F/os it became obvious that they were going sick rather than fly with him !
One of his worst habits was loading up his F/Os with extra work, like getting weather reports for other crews that would be coming on frequency soon (and going to different destos to us etc...my reply was "if you think they want us doing their job for them fill your boots...I'm busy"
On various occasions over a relatively short period of time, about 6 or 8 months probably, he tried,
* To descend below MSA in IMC at 6 or 7000'/min.
I ordered him, yes 411A 'ordered', to climb NOW!
* To change the temp/wind I gave the traffic officers to get more load in when the conditions hadn't changed...his reason? "Gotta get the job done for the company" Off a one way highland runway with a tailwind and ISA + 20
* To descended down a gorge with the IVSI pegged and the steeply sloping terrain less than 1000' below us. His response to my repeated deviation calls was of a similar tone to that we see here from 411A.
He actually tried to take a sector off the me once because
"The weather is forecast bad where we're going and I might have to bust the minimas to get in".
My response was "At the minima I will call MINIMA...you try and go below and my next call will be TAKING OVER"...the tone of my voice told him all he needed to know...I kept the sector, the weather was fine and we completed the day uneventfully.
And on and on through various scenarios.
Despite NUMEROUS conversations with him on my part, and MANY others over time, to try and change him....no joy!
Finally while crewing with a senior checkie I quietly voiced my concerns...his reaction?..."Ohh not him AGAIN!!!...If you're prepared to sign your name then go into print and I'll promise that we'll look into it"
Despite numerous warnings from other Captains that nothing would be done and stories of F/O's being reamed for doing the same over the years I went into print...nothing emotional just the facts...and the final paragraph was;
Quote:
If I am witness to any similar departures from SOPS in future I will be terminating my participation in the flight immediately, if on the ground or, if airborne, at the completion of the Parking Checklist.
End Quote:
I handed the letter to the Fleet Captain personally...he had heard what was going on and WAS NOT HAPPY about having to deal with the situation....luckily he liked/ respected me.
I said to him "N..do nothing if you want...it doesn't worry me, but be advised that one day you WILL get a phone call from me from an outport somewhere saying send another F/O cause I'm not budging...and I will NOT be talked into bringing the aircraft back!"
His reply was "You're one of the easiest F/Os we have to get along with...he will be dealt with!"
What I didn't learn until later was 6 other F/Os went into print after they heard I was.
They were going to demote him but another Captain said "No give him to me and I'll retrain him"...after 2 months that Captain, at his wits end, put him up for a check..which he passed..he was back in the LHS with the warning that the very next complaint from an F/O would cause instant demotion with no discussion whatsoever....he last 2 months! He resigned rather than be demoted and is now drinking himself to death...literally!
What's is really sad is that he was quite a good stick and rudder pilot and on the ground away from aircraft a very generous man.
In an aircraft he was a disaster...particularly as the day wore on and the booze wore off!
Do I pity him or feel sorry for him...of course...but we did the right thing.
Chuck.
He was an advanced alcoholic,
He was a known problem child...had been when he was an F/O and had been the bane of many an F/O since gaining his command.
The airline had always been a 'Captain's Airline' ie F/O's are seen and not heard. The older Captains, many of whom had NEVER been F/Os themselves actually referred to us as 'Dogs'.
Many years before when the airline sent it's first batch of crews to an early version of CRM this Captain was actually punched out at the bar the night before the course began...the puncher was sacked but the management pilots regretted not terminating the punchee ever after.
As an F/O I had joined this airline with 7000 hours within the small 3rd world country that it operated in...ie I knew the place like the back of my hand.
I was always a relaxed chap who never worried too much about the minutae and was always more interested in an enjoyable day spent doing 35 minute sectors around the mountains and coasts of this beautiful country in our company F28s. My attitude was stay close to SOPs, don't try and frighten/kill me, give me my fair share of sectors and I'll do my very best to be the best F/O you've ever flown with. My attitude then is as now(that I occupy the RHS generally only when conducting Checking/Training) the only effort worth anything is the team effort..If you are having a bad day it is my duty to make up the difference, when I'm having a bad day it is your duty to do the same. There are no such words in the cockpit as 'you' or 'me' only 'us' and 'we'.
Other F/Os had mentioned to me that among most of the Captains I was deemed very good at my job and pleasant to share a cockpit with...to my mind the ultimate professional compliment.
At some stage it became obvious to me that I was flying with this drunken idiot a lot more than 'rostering chance' would dictate...talking to the other F/os it became obvious that they were going sick rather than fly with him !
One of his worst habits was loading up his F/Os with extra work, like getting weather reports for other crews that would be coming on frequency soon (and going to different destos to us etc...my reply was "if you think they want us doing their job for them fill your boots...I'm busy"
On various occasions over a relatively short period of time, about 6 or 8 months probably, he tried,
* To descend below MSA in IMC at 6 or 7000'/min.
I ordered him, yes 411A 'ordered', to climb NOW!
* To change the temp/wind I gave the traffic officers to get more load in when the conditions hadn't changed...his reason? "Gotta get the job done for the company" Off a one way highland runway with a tailwind and ISA + 20
* To descended down a gorge with the IVSI pegged and the steeply sloping terrain less than 1000' below us. His response to my repeated deviation calls was of a similar tone to that we see here from 411A.
He actually tried to take a sector off the me once because
"The weather is forecast bad where we're going and I might have to bust the minimas to get in".
My response was "At the minima I will call MINIMA...you try and go below and my next call will be TAKING OVER"...the tone of my voice told him all he needed to know...I kept the sector, the weather was fine and we completed the day uneventfully.
And on and on through various scenarios.
Despite NUMEROUS conversations with him on my part, and MANY others over time, to try and change him....no joy!
Finally while crewing with a senior checkie I quietly voiced my concerns...his reaction?..."Ohh not him AGAIN!!!...If you're prepared to sign your name then go into print and I'll promise that we'll look into it"
Despite numerous warnings from other Captains that nothing would be done and stories of F/O's being reamed for doing the same over the years I went into print...nothing emotional just the facts...and the final paragraph was;
Quote:
If I am witness to any similar departures from SOPS in future I will be terminating my participation in the flight immediately, if on the ground or, if airborne, at the completion of the Parking Checklist.
End Quote:
I handed the letter to the Fleet Captain personally...he had heard what was going on and WAS NOT HAPPY about having to deal with the situation....luckily he liked/ respected me.
I said to him "N..do nothing if you want...it doesn't worry me, but be advised that one day you WILL get a phone call from me from an outport somewhere saying send another F/O cause I'm not budging...and I will NOT be talked into bringing the aircraft back!"
His reply was "You're one of the easiest F/Os we have to get along with...he will be dealt with!"
What I didn't learn until later was 6 other F/Os went into print after they heard I was.
They were going to demote him but another Captain said "No give him to me and I'll retrain him"...after 2 months that Captain, at his wits end, put him up for a check..which he passed..he was back in the LHS with the warning that the very next complaint from an F/O would cause instant demotion with no discussion whatsoever....he last 2 months! He resigned rather than be demoted and is now drinking himself to death...literally!
What's is really sad is that he was quite a good stick and rudder pilot and on the ground away from aircraft a very generous man.
In an aircraft he was a disaster...particularly as the day wore on and the booze wore off!
Do I pity him or feel sorry for him...of course...but we did the right thing.
Chuck.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 6th Jun 2002 at 14:18.
Chimbu, right up until I read your (very good) post, I was going to suggest that some of the airlines should instigate a 'Happy Hour' for their crews, a la military, as the bar is a very good place to get together and sort minor problems and personality clashes out before they become major problems in the air.
However, this might not have helped the guy in your story as he probably would have either started a fight or drunk himself unconscious at every opportunity.
For the rest of us the CRM issue never goes away and as you get older, despite how great you were when you were young, you make mistakes; maybe only little errors at first, but unless you recognise your fallibility and learn to use the rest of the crew wisely you are committing the worst of sins in aviation - allowing arrogance and self importance to get in the way of Flight Safety.
However, this might not have helped the guy in your story as he probably would have either started a fight or drunk himself unconscious at every opportunity.
For the rest of us the CRM issue never goes away and as you get older, despite how great you were when you were young, you make mistakes; maybe only little errors at first, but unless you recognise your fallibility and learn to use the rest of the crew wisely you are committing the worst of sins in aviation - allowing arrogance and self importance to get in the way of Flight Safety.
Grandpa Aerotart
Crabetc,
We had a 'happy hour' setup...most of us were based offshore and when doing our 4 or 5 days a week on duty in country were housed in the same hotel.
The Hotel, undoubtedly wanting to keep us away from other guests, had given us a large room complete with full size pool table, huge carved wooden bar, big glass fronted bar fridge, TV with cable and sufficient low tables and soft lounge chairs. They sold us booze at cost and room 217
was administered by myself and two other F/os....after the Captain in question was banned by the company from being anywhere near it and had been forced to attend counciling for his problem in Australia...where we were all nominally based. Banning him didn't work as he just drank himself into oblivion alone in his room...and after a few months when things 'quitened down' he started frequenting the bar again...having a few beers and then taking a sh!tload back to his room for later.
It was as good as any RAF/RAAF Officers Mess setup I've ever heard of and the drinking and parties were something to behold
The airline in question also had a VERY good CRM course which had been put together by a senior airbus captain....which was essentially wasted on captains like this guy and a few others but which prepared us younger blokes as well as could be expected...it even had a pretend section labeled by the head CRM bloke specially for this captain and named after him....as I said, he'd been a well known problem... for about 15 years!
Yes he was an extreme example...and there were a couple of less extreme examples we also had to deal with on a daily basis...but that's life in the big bad world!
Chuck.
We had a 'happy hour' setup...most of us were based offshore and when doing our 4 or 5 days a week on duty in country were housed in the same hotel.
The Hotel, undoubtedly wanting to keep us away from other guests, had given us a large room complete with full size pool table, huge carved wooden bar, big glass fronted bar fridge, TV with cable and sufficient low tables and soft lounge chairs. They sold us booze at cost and room 217
was administered by myself and two other F/os....after the Captain in question was banned by the company from being anywhere near it and had been forced to attend counciling for his problem in Australia...where we were all nominally based. Banning him didn't work as he just drank himself into oblivion alone in his room...and after a few months when things 'quitened down' he started frequenting the bar again...having a few beers and then taking a sh!tload back to his room for later.It was as good as any RAF/RAAF Officers Mess setup I've ever heard of and the drinking and parties were something to behold
The airline in question also had a VERY good CRM course which had been put together by a senior airbus captain....which was essentially wasted on captains like this guy and a few others but which prepared us younger blokes as well as could be expected...it even had a pretend section labeled by the head CRM bloke specially for this captain and named after him....as I said, he'd been a well known problem... for about 15 years!
Yes he was an extreme example...and there were a couple of less extreme examples we also had to deal with on a daily basis...but that's life in the big bad world!
Chuck.
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Whoa everyone, keep chillin'!
Regarding the rights and wrongs of going behind someone's back, well many people just don't deal well with confrontation. Captains often say that they would expect the F/O to raise any issues with them first, but not everyone is cut out for that and often that in itself can lead to tension. Also, it's fine for the small stuff but when we get to be talking about SOP's and standards, well, that often becomes the job of someone else higher up the food chain from the F/O. At work we could discreetly bid to avoid flying with a particular captain that we had a problem with. Nobody but the computer got involved until a flying block couldn't be built around him. The system worked great for all those little personality clashes, and eventually showed firm evidence of a problem. Just some thoughts of mine......Bye the way I think those comments about there being no "You" or "Me" just "Us" and "We" were spot on. Remember, if the Captain has wound up high and fast there is a good chance that the F/O's support has been lacking. Also, I think those comments about the company not backing up the Captain are the opposite of spot on. I actually had a guy say the same thing to me one day. He had lots of no fly bids against him I understand....................
Regarding the rights and wrongs of going behind someone's back, well many people just don't deal well with confrontation. Captains often say that they would expect the F/O to raise any issues with them first, but not everyone is cut out for that and often that in itself can lead to tension. Also, it's fine for the small stuff but when we get to be talking about SOP's and standards, well, that often becomes the job of someone else higher up the food chain from the F/O. At work we could discreetly bid to avoid flying with a particular captain that we had a problem with. Nobody but the computer got involved until a flying block couldn't be built around him. The system worked great for all those little personality clashes, and eventually showed firm evidence of a problem. Just some thoughts of mine......Bye the way I think those comments about there being no "You" or "Me" just "Us" and "We" were spot on. Remember, if the Captain has wound up high and fast there is a good chance that the F/O's support has been lacking. Also, I think those comments about the company not backing up the Captain are the opposite of spot on. I actually had a guy say the same thing to me one day. He had lots of no fly bids against him I understand....................
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Flightlevel Collegues.......
All crews these days don't spend their time in the Flight Levels......or have their command seat on the left side...??
Helicopter crews spend their day in the weather, not above it........however Human Factors is just as big an issue down low.
I find that a few minutes [even seconds] dedicated to a debrief of all flights between the players, always seems to allow the potential of conflict to be rationalised. To date, this has always allowed all parties the necessary forum to air their viewpoints........
All crews these days don't spend their time in the Flight Levels......or have their command seat on the left side...??
Helicopter crews spend their day in the weather, not above it........however Human Factors is just as big an issue down low.
I find that a few minutes [even seconds] dedicated to a debrief of all flights between the players, always seems to allow the potential of conflict to be rationalised. To date, this has always allowed all parties the necessary forum to air their viewpoints........
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Wayne's final paragraph touches on one of the most important directions state of the art CRM programmes are moving towards.
It's going to be a long and rocky road seeing it happen but the debrief, even one taking a minute, is going to prove itself a vital tool for safety. It's difficult biting our tongues and holding back 18 months on from seeing the initial and utterly extraordinary results of the safety/CRM survey from Lufthansa which, I believe, will change many companies views on the subjects discussed on this forum.
Rob
It's going to be a long and rocky road seeing it happen but the debrief, even one taking a minute, is going to prove itself a vital tool for safety. It's difficult biting our tongues and holding back 18 months on from seeing the initial and utterly extraordinary results of the safety/CRM survey from Lufthansa which, I believe, will change many companies views on the subjects discussed on this forum.
Rob
Complaints are like performance reviews: they tell you as much about the reviewer as the person being reviewed.
Recognising this, in a well run organisation, people will not be scared of making a justified complaint: they will think hard about whether the complaint is justified, but not about whether they should complain. Further, they will be confident that if their complaint is justified 'something will be done', and they will not suffer for coming forward.
Managers in such organisations will know their people well enough to be able to make value judgements about the people involved, and if they can't to find people who can. They will recognise genuine complaints that have merit, and will act on them.
I have a lot of people working for me. A few are serial complainers, recognised as such, and are periodically told to go away and grow up. Some will come with what they think is a serious issue, but I don't. I'll tell them why they are wrong, and expect them to respect my decision. (Sometimes, I will be wrong, but that's life.) Every now and again someone will come and tell me something that I need to know, and could not have identified for myself. Almost always, I will hear it from several places at once. Occasionally, I'll have to be patient, or find a way to verify it for myself. No-one is going to get crucified on one persons whim. But for the overall health of the organisation individuals who are underperforming need to be identified, and the company (and public) needs to be protected from them. Sometimes (alcoholics) they need to be protected from themselves.
Once the door of the cockpit closes there is very little a management can do to check on what goes on. One of the depressing things about Pprune, particularly in the context of something as important as flying commercial aircraft, is that it seems that pilots are prepared to fly with conspicuous underachievers, or people with serious personal problems, and do nothing about it. Is this because airline managments are all serially bad, or out of a misplaced sense of loyalty to the pilot community?
If Emirates are half the airline people claim, and the incidents were as trivial as people are saying, the captain should know he has nothing to fear. The F/O should have been told to grow up, in terms appropriate to the nature of his problem, and might have learnt one of life's lessons. Pilots in the bar, sipping iced tea, (as I'm sure they always do), would have commented 'silly sod', (if they ever heard about it) and left it at that.
And 411A would have had nothing to comment on. Utopia at last!
Recognising this, in a well run organisation, people will not be scared of making a justified complaint: they will think hard about whether the complaint is justified, but not about whether they should complain. Further, they will be confident that if their complaint is justified 'something will be done', and they will not suffer for coming forward.
Managers in such organisations will know their people well enough to be able to make value judgements about the people involved, and if they can't to find people who can. They will recognise genuine complaints that have merit, and will act on them.
I have a lot of people working for me. A few are serial complainers, recognised as such, and are periodically told to go away and grow up. Some will come with what they think is a serious issue, but I don't. I'll tell them why they are wrong, and expect them to respect my decision. (Sometimes, I will be wrong, but that's life.) Every now and again someone will come and tell me something that I need to know, and could not have identified for myself. Almost always, I will hear it from several places at once. Occasionally, I'll have to be patient, or find a way to verify it for myself. No-one is going to get crucified on one persons whim. But for the overall health of the organisation individuals who are underperforming need to be identified, and the company (and public) needs to be protected from them. Sometimes (alcoholics) they need to be protected from themselves.
Once the door of the cockpit closes there is very little a management can do to check on what goes on. One of the depressing things about Pprune, particularly in the context of something as important as flying commercial aircraft, is that it seems that pilots are prepared to fly with conspicuous underachievers, or people with serious personal problems, and do nothing about it. Is this because airline managments are all serially bad, or out of a misplaced sense of loyalty to the pilot community?
If Emirates are half the airline people claim, and the incidents were as trivial as people are saying, the captain should know he has nothing to fear. The F/O should have been told to grow up, in terms appropriate to the nature of his problem, and might have learnt one of life's lessons. Pilots in the bar, sipping iced tea, (as I'm sure they always do), would have commented 'silly sod', (if they ever heard about it) and left it at that.
And 411A would have had nothing to comment on. Utopia at last!
Join Date: May 2002
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Guys,
It seems to me that; despite all the crm courses given all over the world, some people just do not want to accept the use of it.
I totally agree, when two (or more) people work as a crew on board of an aircraft, nobody should file a rapport behind the other ones their backs....
Arent we being told that we should talk to eachother in order to solve the problem? Only if this does not work a rapport is in place, but with the knowledge of the one concerned! And even than a rapport is a really bad way to solve the situation.
I do have to admit thouigh that it is very unfortunately that in some companies it is not generally accepted that a copilot files a rapport! The consequences than are " no more flying, bullying by the capt,.......
These actions are really devostating for the fligfht safety and I think that should be our major concern!
We are all supposed to be grown ups.....well than, act as one! Captains, dont misuse your power. Try to be a little understanding and talk it out with your F/O. Most probably he will have misunderstood something you said or misinterpreted an action you did!
Copilots, dont be childish and talk to your skipper! He might just appreciate your comment as this should be part of your airmanship required for your possible upgrade!
Remember: it takes two to fly our modern airplanes. And this does not mean just being in the cockpit, no, your brain has to be there aswell in order to function as a team!
To end Ill post a poem (
) I found out of in the beginning of my carreer as a pilot! It has been accopnanying me since than on all my trips, just to remind me of how it used to be! ENJOY!
THE COPILOT
I'm the copilot, I sit on the right,
Its up to me to be quick and bright.
I never talk back for I have regrets,
I have to remember what the captain forgets.
I make up the flight plan and study the weather,
Pull up the gear and stand by to feather.
Make out the forms and do the reporting,
and fly the old crate while the captain is courting.
I take the readings and adjust the power,
Put on the heaters when we're in a shower.
I give him his bearings in the darkest of nights,
And do all the bookwotrk without any lights.
I call for my captain and give him a Coke,
And I always laugh at his corniest joke.
And once in a while, when his landings are rusty,
I always come by with: " By gosh, but it's gusty!"
So all in all, I am a general stooge.
As I sit on the right of the man I call "scrooge"
I suppose you think thats past understanding,
But maybe some day he'll give me a landing!
Nice atmosphere, isnt it?
It seems to me that; despite all the crm courses given all over the world, some people just do not want to accept the use of it.
I totally agree, when two (or more) people work as a crew on board of an aircraft, nobody should file a rapport behind the other ones their backs....
Arent we being told that we should talk to eachother in order to solve the problem? Only if this does not work a rapport is in place, but with the knowledge of the one concerned! And even than a rapport is a really bad way to solve the situation.
I do have to admit thouigh that it is very unfortunately that in some companies it is not generally accepted that a copilot files a rapport! The consequences than are " no more flying, bullying by the capt,.......
These actions are really devostating for the fligfht safety and I think that should be our major concern!
We are all supposed to be grown ups.....well than, act as one! Captains, dont misuse your power. Try to be a little understanding and talk it out with your F/O. Most probably he will have misunderstood something you said or misinterpreted an action you did!
Copilots, dont be childish and talk to your skipper! He might just appreciate your comment as this should be part of your airmanship required for your possible upgrade!
Remember: it takes two to fly our modern airplanes. And this does not mean just being in the cockpit, no, your brain has to be there aswell in order to function as a team!
To end Ill post a poem (
) I found out of in the beginning of my carreer as a pilot! It has been accopnanying me since than on all my trips, just to remind me of how it used to be! ENJOY!THE COPILOT
I'm the copilot, I sit on the right,
Its up to me to be quick and bright.
I never talk back for I have regrets,
I have to remember what the captain forgets.
I make up the flight plan and study the weather,
Pull up the gear and stand by to feather.
Make out the forms and do the reporting,
and fly the old crate while the captain is courting.
I take the readings and adjust the power,
Put on the heaters when we're in a shower.
I give him his bearings in the darkest of nights,
And do all the bookwotrk without any lights.
I call for my captain and give him a Coke,
And I always laugh at his corniest joke.
And once in a while, when his landings are rusty,
I always come by with: " By gosh, but it's gusty!"
So all in all, I am a general stooge.
As I sit on the right of the man I call "scrooge"
I suppose you think thats past understanding,
But maybe some day he'll give me a landing!
Nice atmosphere, isnt it?
Join Date: Sep 1999
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Some excellent points, Airbusser. Sadly, there are people in this industry who lack the ideal level of professionalism that most of us aspire to.
For example, I know of an experienced pilot, TRE/IRE and "entrepreneur" who frequently refers to his FOs as "secretaries". I know of another, now, thankfully, retired from a job as Fleet Manager at a second-line airline who has slapped the hands of an FO who reached over to change a frequency on the RT, and said in the hearing of several that an FO of his would touch the controls "over my dead body".
As you say, CRM has a long way to go.
Incidentally, I found it slightly confusing reading your post. I appreciate that English is not your first language, so am not intending to criticise, just to explain, but just for future reference, "rapport" means much the same in English as in French - an understanding, a good working relationship, co-operation. I think you meant to use "report" which, in the context of your post, is a document filed with management on how the flight went, performance of the crew, etc. A couple of times in reading your post, I was not sure whether we were talking about the relationship between the two pilots, or what one says to management about the other!
SLF, you also make some very good points. I wish that all my managers had been like you! As for your question about why pilots don't complain more, yes, to a certain extent it might be the closed nature of the profession. However, a more significant reason, I might suggest, could be that, particularly when complaining about a relatively senior Captain, he will probably have known for some time (and therefore be good friends with) the management pilots to whom the complaint is made. Aviation is a very small world, everyone knows everyone, and most people don't want to get a reputation, or to upset people above them. If they want to move on a couple of years from now, it may well be the Captain about whom they registered a complaint who is asked for a reference...
For example, I know of an experienced pilot, TRE/IRE and "entrepreneur" who frequently refers to his FOs as "secretaries". I know of another, now, thankfully, retired from a job as Fleet Manager at a second-line airline who has slapped the hands of an FO who reached over to change a frequency on the RT, and said in the hearing of several that an FO of his would touch the controls "over my dead body".
As you say, CRM has a long way to go.
Incidentally, I found it slightly confusing reading your post. I appreciate that English is not your first language, so am not intending to criticise, just to explain, but just for future reference, "rapport" means much the same in English as in French - an understanding, a good working relationship, co-operation. I think you meant to use "report" which, in the context of your post, is a document filed with management on how the flight went, performance of the crew, etc. A couple of times in reading your post, I was not sure whether we were talking about the relationship between the two pilots, or what one says to management about the other!
SLF, you also make some very good points. I wish that all my managers had been like you!
As for your question about why pilots don't complain more, yes, to a certain extent it might be the closed nature of the profession. However, a more significant reason, I might suggest, could be that, particularly when complaining about a relatively senior Captain, he will probably have known for some time (and therefore be good friends with) the management pilots to whom the complaint is made. Aviation is a very small world, everyone knows everyone, and most people don't want to get a reputation, or to upset people above them. If they want to move on a couple of years from now, it may well be the Captain about whom they registered a complaint who is asked for a reference...
Join Date: Apr 2002
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amos2.......while the guys at this thread have been implying the necessity of CRM, u come out of the blue and ask a guy of 17 to finish his training and then 'talk to us.'
i, for once, didnt notice a tone of anger or short-sightedness in his voice. he merely asked the people here few questions regarding the friendship\relationship between a captain and a first officer. now, this wannabe has so many questions in his mind which he looks forward to being answered.
if such is your tone, then i advise u to work on it. not gonna take u anywhere in life. not sure about your age though.
i myself, like the canadian 17 year old guy, am learning a lot from pilots around the world surfing this site. dont come out with brash tone and knock us down.
chill amos2......chill!
richie-rich
i, for once, didnt notice a tone of anger or short-sightedness in his voice. he merely asked the people here few questions regarding the friendship\relationship between a captain and a first officer. now, this wannabe has so many questions in his mind which he looks forward to being answered.
if such is your tone, then i advise u to work on it. not gonna take u anywhere in life. not sure about your age though.
i myself, like the canadian 17 year old guy, am learning a lot from pilots around the world surfing this site. dont come out with brash tone and knock us down.
chill amos2......chill!
richie-rich
