Another angle on automation dependancy

[Superpilot]

I try to request an approach with reduced levels of automation about once per week and even then if the weather is good. In about 400 hours of line flying, that request was refused by captains (mostly guys from the so-called brave age) with them kindly advising me: "I would rather you do that with a trainer thank you very much!". So the other day I flew with a trainer who let me fly raw data manual thrust from about 10,000 all the way down into a quiet airfield. The unfamiliarity of flying this way was astounding after so long of not being allowed to do it. As the instructor said: Those who prevent you from exercising your piloting skills are weak and will make you weak pilots over time too. This all in an airline where we are not prohibited from flying manually.

So from my experience, as a relatively new jet pilot and keen individual who wishes to remain in check, I find most of my senior colleagues have very little faith in the skills and abilities of their FOs. This is the nature of the beast we are dealing with and the attitude needs to change.

[de facto]

Or maybe the captain who refused your request and directed you to a line trainer did so because he did not feel like do extra than what he was paid for on the day.
He may have accepted another day,in any case is he obliged to answer your request.
One day you will be on the left with a greener than green asking you to fly manually when you just had a loooong week and cant be bothered,,,you will send him to the trainers too.

This is the nature of the beast we are dealing with and the attitude needs to change.

Both need to be willing to do extra work,YOUR attitude needs to be changed,the captain does NOT OWE you anything,join the ranks,and stop whining.

[de facto]

Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,279
-Completed modular Sept 2008
-A320 SSTR April 2009
-First turbo-prop offer May 2011
-A320 hours Aug 2011
-First A320 offer Jan 2012

Maybe you should have stayed longer flying those props manually before paying for your 320 line training.

[FlyingStone]

Originally Posted by Superpilot

I try to request an approach with reduced levels of automation about once per week and even then if the weather is good. In about 400 hours of line flying, that request was refused by captains (mostly guys from the so-called brave age) with them kindly advising me: "I would rather you do that with a trainer thank you very much!".

If the captain deems it's unsafe at the moment to fly manually due to condition of aircraft, crew (fatigue!), ATC, weather, etc. he has every right to ask you to stick with the autopilot in until reasonable altitude. Maybe captain was fatigued after a week of 4 sector days and decided it would be best if use autopilot untill 500ft or so, because PM has much more work to do if PF is flying manually and situational awareness is the first to degrade. There are many reasons why you weren't allowed to fly manually, but this is hardly a forum for this debate - first chance to have a talk is during daily debrief, but if it's a more widespread problem in the company, talk to an instructor or chief pilot.

You have to be aware - it's the captain who is fully responsible for the safety of everybody on the aircraft and he's the one who signs the aircraft. Cockpit is not a democracy, although suggestions from FO should be taken into account when the captain is making critical decisions. Try not to make everything in cockpit about you, more about the entire crew and how each of them thinks and operates and you'll see that captains mostly do very good decisions based on the entire crew's input. Of course there are exceptions, but they should be in minority.

Originally Posted by Superpilot

-First turbo-prop offer May 2011
-A320 hours Aug 2011

Speakes volumes. Too "super" for a TP?

Originally Posted by Claybird

Why did you have to request such an approach and not merely just perform it? Were you not the PF?

I disagree. The amount of automation used during the approach should be covered during the approach briefing (and discussed should any questions arise). It would be extremely poor CRM if FO as PF wouldn't mention that he will disconnect AP at FL100 (perhaps suspecting captain would disagree) and then surprising the captain.

[Superpilot]

I'm not going to justify why I held the the TP job for such a short time to the two sky-gods who think they know how all pilots should go about their career. Life throws many difficult choices at you that are not as black and white as some of you would like to assume. Age, money, location, family situation and level of danger are just some of the factors involved and as two of our guys (one whom was in my joining batch) crashed into the sides of mountains (2 separate incidents) just weeks after me leaving, I feel it was kind of a good move! Does anyone wish to discuss this further?

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not talking about isolated incidents here. I'm talking about most of the guys who I have flown with habitually and routinely turning down such requests, and YES, most certainly, all requests come during the approach briefing and as I stated originally, I only ask when the the situation allows it. In addition to good weather, of course it's got to be a quiet airfield, and as a crew we must be in good shape for it. Please don't assume the naivety of a newbie so easily!

OK, so I've hit a couple of nerves, clearly. I'm sorry, it was not my intention to come across as a selfish glory hunting ****. I was just painting a picture of what I feel some of the obstacles are in trying to avoid automation dependency. The suggestion about asking some of them in the debrief about their reasons for not allowing manual flight is a good one but the backgrounds and cultures of some of the people I fly with make this a move that I might regret.

[Centaurus]

Both need to be willing to do extra work,YOUR attitude needs to be changed,the captain does NOT OWE you anything,join the ranks,and stop whining.

What a rude and arrogant reply to a perfectly reasonable post by Superpilot. You should be bloody ashamed of yourself

From my experience, keen and enthusiastic pilots generally retain those attributes long into their flying career. First officers fortunate enough to share the cockpit with such personalities should thank their lucky stars.

As D.P. Davies stated in his fine book, Handling the Big Jets, quote: "The demand of jet transport flying can best be met by enthusiasm. Personal enthusiasm for the job is beyond value because it is a built-in productive force, and those who have it do not have to be poushed into practice and search for knowledge.

Enthusiasm thus generates its own protection. This is the frame of mind which needs to be developed for the best execution of the airline pilot's task" Unquote.

It is usually the lazy captain that has allowed himself to become so automation dependant that he simply cannot be bothered to let his first officer practice his manual flight skills. The common excuse is "workload." Most probably too, he has lost his own youthful passion for technical excellence. He has been there, done that. On autopilot of course. He sees enthusiasm in his F/O as irritating and a damned nuisance. The same personality type is quick to dredge up excuses because all he wants is to sit back and take it easy in the LH seat. In other words don't rock the boat, son. Again, D.B Davies covers that nicely when he states: "As we get older we all become slightly more lazy, slightly more tired."

If the F/O asks to turn off the FD for some hand flying practice, then be thankful he is that keen and enthusiastic for his job; even if you are just in it for the money and nothing else.

Maybe captain was fatigued after a week of 4 sector days and decided it would be best if use autopilot untill 500ft or so, because PM has much more work to do if PF is flying manually

Jesus wept!! Here comes more excuses. It wasn't that long ago in another life that this scribe was flying four engine Lincoln bombers on ten hour flights with no weather radar and most of it manual single pilot flying because of old fashioned unreliable autopilots. A week of four sector days would have been most welcome. PM has much more work to do if PF is flying manually? I am quite astonished at such tosh.

[de facto]

What a rude and arrogant reply to a perfectly reasonable post by Superpilot. You should be bloody ashamed of yourself

Centaurus,your post makes me think of a daddy chicken running to the rescue of his little chick...seriously,come on Centaurus,why should i feel ashamed?
What you quoted me writing was a direct answer to the OP modest:

This is the nature of the beast we are dealing with and the attitude needs to change.

It is very easy to blame the oh so poor manual skills of a captain who denies manual flying to his colleague.

It is usually the lazy captain that has allowed himself to become so automation dependant that he simply cannot be bothered to let his first officer practice his manual flight skills. The common excuse is "workload."

Dont you think YOU are being arrogant ?? How do you know the captain in question doesnt fly as well as you?maybe the fo should ask for his captain sim checks??
Is refusing an fo to fly manually a lack of enthusiasm,laziness?maybe.
Does it mean the captain cant fly if he has to?probably not!
Recommending such fo to ask the trainers instead such a bad idea?i think not!
The trainers are there for a reason,and selected for the principles you seem to soooo cherish and certainly not the money..

I have never denied manual flying to fos,quite the opposite,but I wouldnt blame a captain for refusing,it is his right.
For the OP,use each captain for his strenghts and one day you will decide as a Captain what you believe is most important for your fos to learn from you.
In any case respect your captain for his choice as you would like him to respect you for your request.