Dual Control Input whilst landing

[John Citizen]

I have noticed that some captains like to keep their hand and feet on the contols whilst I am landing, and some occasionally even make a "dual input" (airbus).

I have several years on the type and my landings on average are just as good/bad as anyone else's.

However some captains don't seem to have confidence in their FO's whilst others are control freaks who like to be in complete control all the time, even when not their sector.

I get annoyed at this as :
- its an insult to my flying ability (to be able to fly myself, I am not at the pre-solo stage, I do have a licence)
- it distracts me as I am trying to land as well as trying to work out what the other pilot is doing with controls/about to do
- intereferes with my flying
- puts me off

As far as I am aware, dual input is not encouraged in the Airbus however some captains are aware that they can make very small inputs without the "dual input" audio (synthetic voice) activating. However I still see the "green arrow" (sidestick priority ligh) illuminate momentarliy up in front of me.

Twice recently the captain interfered with my landing, with the dual input resulting in a less than ideal landing. It was still ok, but it would have worked out just fine if the other pilot did not do anything.

Now should I :
- make a comment to the captain
- speak to management
- make a safety report to management
or
- do nothing and just put up with it

[Denti]

Hand over control. If a captain wants to land the plane it is within his rights to do so. After all he is the pilot in command. So just hand over control, a loud and clear "you have control" whilst removing your hands and feet from them should clear things up. Of course the flare is not the ideal place and time to do that, but it is still better than two pilots fighting for control and muddling up the landing.

[BOAC]

whilst removing your hands and feet from them should clear things up.

- you are joking, are you not? NEVER cease flying an aeroplane until you have confirmed the other pilot has control. '"I have control" is what you need to hear.

JC - I suggest you speak privately to a 'friendly' TC if you know one if you do not feel able to go 'formal'. I would suggest that if it is happening with several Captains, however, you may have a problem and might start with them first? Deal with them as we have suggested, but more than that? This is not normal in my experience - maybe 1 or perhaps 2 who 'interfere' (I had that once, and in my landing brief said that I would hand over if he continued to try to steer (silently) on the rudder pedals during my roll). It stopped.

[Piltdown Man]

John Citizen - This sort of thing hacks me off as well. But I'd suggest that you give the unconfident knob control with the appropriate phrase. On the ground, explain why you did and if he doesn't buy it, let him fly every sector. Then complain to the appropriate person AND do the safety paperwork. And it won't only be you who they do it to. People like this have to be retrained until they stop interfering. The more you allow them to continue, the worse they'll get.

PM

[411A]

Of course, it could be that the original poster is a lousy pilot, and scars the cr*p out of his Captains.

[BOAC]

Of course, it could be that was covered in post #3?

[John Citizen]

lousy pilot

I don't think so.

I already said that my landings are (on average) are just as good/bad as any one else's (on average). We all win some and loose some, no matter how good some think they are.

What if I have not ever flown with this captain before (as recently happened) but he still thinks he should apply a dual input ?

I haven't even had a chance to proove myself yet (lousy or not)

Next time I fly with these captains, I might just hold the sidestick priority pushbutton down during the last 100' (that will them now).

I am only doing it to prevent the other pilot interfering.

Some might say this is dumb/stupid/dangerous and non-SOP, but so is making a dual input to start with (without pressing the sidestick priority pushbutton down in the first place).

[AvMed.IN]

I suppose you are taking it as a personal affront to your professionalism. But if you could, just for a moment, empathise with the Captain, and see things from his perspective in line with his personality and professional skills...you may be able to get over this sentiment of 'being under watch'.

As I see it, you may be reacting to the situation where you feel you are under trial. The truth of the matter is, every time you do a fine job of landing, you not only prove your professional acumen but more importantly you prove it to those 'doubting' captains their lack of belief in their FO.

You have to remain professional in your approach and thus prove them wrong in having doubted your skills in the first place.

[Neptunus Rex]

John C

Don't even think about pressing the takeover button. I hope that was a 'tongue in cheek' remark.

Captains who 'ghost' on the controls are revealing their own shortcomings and lack of self-confidence. However, it should be discussed or reported on the A320. Making a second input gives the algebraic sum of the two sidesticks and can have the opposite effect to that intended.

It will all go away when you get your own command.

[Piltdown Man]

It will all go away when you get your own command.

It should do, but I'm afraid it doesn't. For example, I have to fly with one total and utter spanner every now and again and his concept of being PNF is that he is ready to take over at a moment's notice and (heavily) rides the controls or that if his thinks that you haven't pushed a button he'll do it for you. For instance, if you get a new heading and level, he'll do the one you don't. Time and time again this git ruins your day... Yes, I do tell the obnoxious **** what I'm doing and yes I do tell him to leave things alone... The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.

PM

[411A]

Next time I fly with these captains, I might just hold the sidestick priority pushbutton down during the last 100' (that will them now).

JC can't be all that good if he has to resort to this nonsense.
No wonder the Captain is concerned.

Frankly, if I was JC's Captain, JC would be PNF all the time.

[Dan Winterland]

It's our company's policy that the PNF follows through below 'circuit height'.

[Twinstar2007]

JC

I have had similar problems and can totally understand where you are coming from.

How I personally look at it, is that the Capt is under a lot of pressure, and license is on the line, so they will do what is required to protect that within reason of course.

I also think to myself, that they are experienced Pilots and may see something you don't, it would be better for them to react before its too late.

I would maybe talk to the Capts concerned, and ask them why they are interfering with the controls, if you do not get a satisfactory response, I would as others have said, is approach a nice Training Capt.

Whwn you see the TC, explain at first you don't want to mention any names, but explain what is happening on your flight.

I noticed you said that you are quite experienced, so this may sound harsh, but maybe tell the TC if he wouldn't mind rostering you on some flights with TC, although on record it would not be classed as a training sector, but therefore it would give you an opportunity to discover if you any problems.

If the TC's are happy, then that just proves your case and then you can move up to the next level.

I had the same situation and it still happens with certain Capts, but speaking to other FO's they say exactly the same.

I flew with some TC's and they do not interfere or anything, and I work much better.

I had one normal line Capt, it was a strong 18kts X wind in rain, he told me that he is not going to make any inputs, he will as per SOP, cover the controls, but the rest is up to me, as he said your Command Training starts when you are in the Right Seat.

Without boasting, I did a really nice landing and got in nicely on the Centre Line, and it made me more confident and determined to do better each flight and think for myself.

I wish you the best of luck.

[John Citizen]

prove them wrong

How can I prove them wrong if they always interfere ? (make a dual input)

JC can't be all that good

Now I must repeat for the third time :

my landings on average are just as good/bad as anyone else's.

How can I achieve the occasional greaser completely on my own ( an FO can actually land a plane on his own ) with some captains who leave me alone then other captains think they always must make a dual input to help me out like I am some type of cripple ?

if he has to resort to this nonsense.

What nonsense ?

Take a read of this extract from the Airbus manuals :

When the Pilot Flying (PF) makes an input on the sidestick, an order (an electrical signal) is sent to the fly-by-wire computer. If the Pilot Not Flying (PNF) also acts on the stick, then both signals/orders are added.

Therefore, as on any other aircraft type, PF and PNF must not act on their sidesticks at the same time.

If the PNF (or Instructor) needs to take over, the PNF must press the sidestick takeover pushbutton, and announce: "I have control".

These captains are coming up with the nonsense to start with and doing something in deliberate breach of Airbus manuals.

Who is doing something wrong (nonsense) to start with ?

FO has every right to be concerned because clearly it is the captain who is doing something wrong here.

If I (the FO as PF) press and hold down my sidestick pushbutton (for not more than 40 seconds), it will prevent any dual input (as it is not encouraged by Airbus). I would only do this to prevent any nonsense from the captain, which is a dual input

If the insecure and underconfident captain wants to take over control, he still can by pressing his sidestick priority pushbutton down. Isn't this the way it is supposed to happen anyway ? Press the button to take over control !

JC can't be all that good if he has to resort to this nonsense.
No wonder the Captain is concerned

I have not resorted to this "nonsense" yet (to counteract the Captains nonsense). I was speaking hypothetically. The captain has no wonder to be concerned.

Now if my captains are coming up with this nonsense, and I should not react with my own nonsense (as some say), should I report these captains now or just put with it (with their non-standard ways) ?

Frankly, if I was JC's Captain, JC would be PNF all the time

Maybe if you were my captain doing this to me, I would report you. Just because you are captain it does not mean you can do fly with own non-standard techniques.

[411A]

Well, it certaily looks as though JC is balanced...a chip on both shoulders.
Perhaps he believes he is somehow a better pilot than the Captains he flies with.
IF this was so, I'm sure the airline might consider a command assessment.

[Tee Emm]

It's our company's policy that the PNF follows through below 'circuit height'.

What a strange and weird company policy. Has your company experienced more than usual pilot total incapacitation in the circuit area that would dictate the precaution of both pilots on the controls simultaneously?

[de facto]

Dual inputs are monitored by ACAM in your airline certainly,your ops must be aware of pilots who abuse the dual input.
Meanwhile,you may include in your brief that you accept if your capt takes over control by clearly stating so if in doubt on app/landing.
This mayhelp.

Are these capt junior ones? Hours on left?

[Big Pistons Forever]

I had this exact issue come up once with a Capt while flying as a new hire on a T Prop airliner. I found it extremely disconcerting and talked to the Captain who replied that he always "helped" the FO's on landing and was not going to change how he ran "his" airplane. I then raised the issue with the CP who was surprised and shocked at what was going on. The result was a memorandum that gave clear direction that Capt's were not to make any control inputs without first making the "I have control call". The Captain in question eventually left the company as he was about to be demoted for general incompetence.

Bottom line is you are either PF or PNF , there are no SOP's for "Pilot flying a little bit". This practice is completely unacceptable and as was noted can lead to unexpected aircraft reactions, particularly inn FBW control systems.

411A , I am betting you never shadow the controls as you have enough skills and experience to know how far to let an FO go and when the line is crossed just take full control. If when acting as a TRE you observed a Captain "help" an FO with unannounced control inputs, what would you do ?

[John Citizen]

Don't even think about pressing the takeover button. I hope that was a 'tongue in cheek' remark

Yes, thanks, I agree. After more thought and from reading the replies here, I will never do it, nor have I ever done it before.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

It was tongue in cheek.

Perhaps he believes he is somehow a better pilot than the Captains he flies with

I do not believe this at all, nor did I ever try and portray this belief. I apologise if did.

Just because I raise concern regarding the behaviour of some captains does not automatically mean that I think that I am better than them.

I admit that I am not ready to be a captain yet, however I am competent enough to be able to land an aeroplane on my own without interference.

I am just annoyed at captains who like to interfere with my landings, which is a big "MUST NOT DO" according to Airbus.

Now back to the original question, how to ideal with this "safety" issue ?

I don't like to dob in my mates (report fellow workers to the company), however from the responses here, it looks like some captains might be offended if I directly express my concern to them.

Obviously some captains (who think they know better than the manuals) think this is their "right".

Looks like I might just have to quietly put up with it.

[411A]

411A , I am betting you never shadow the controls as you have enough skills and experience to know how far to let an FO go and when the line is crossed just take full control.

You would win that bet, I never interfere, unless a dire situation is developing.

If when acting as a TRE you observed a Captain "help" an FO with unannounced control inputs, what would you do ?

Suggest that he find somewhere else to work.