Adding flaps DURING takeoff roll on 737

[tica011]

Hi,

First to make it clear that I am not a professional pilot, albeit am an aerospace engineer, with over 2000 hrs of private, instrument and multi-engine time.

I was a passenger yesterday on a flight from Frankfurt to Belgrade on JAT Airways that left me very disturbed. The FP did not during taxing and runway positioning deploy flaps, rather decided to start extending them at the same time when he started adding power for take off. At the time that he nose wheel lifted off the runway the flaps were still in motion, and were fully extended at the moment the mains left the runway. The weather was MVFR and no particular cross wind existed.

I thought this is, based on all my eduction and training (both as an engineer and a pilot) to be a major breach of safety. The consequence of flaps not fully deploying or uneven deployment, could be fatal (isn't SpanAir accident of (similar cause??). I actually found it so disturbing that I alerted the cabin crew to this as we were lined up on the runway (and they did talk to the front of the plane, but have no idea if my intervention had any consequences). I don't even want to mention that the controls were never check for "free and correct" during preflight, cockpit door was open for half of the flight etc...

I am considering filing a formal complaint with the airline and the civil aviation authorities, since I believe this kind of behavior puts the flying public in danger. But before doing so, I would appreciate any input from professional flying community, if I am missing something or if there is a procedure that I am not aware of.

Thanks in advance.

[JanetFlight]

Well, i recognize this wont answer your interesting questions, but as a mere example i've seen along all these years a quite handful of A300's and 767's taking off in Flapless config.. (regarding trailing and not leading/slats)

Photos: Airbus A300B4-622R Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
Photos: Boeing 767-201/ER Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (interesting comment)
Almost Flapless in this one:
Photos: Boeing 757-2G5 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

[stansdead]

Both of those Boeings have slats and flaps deployed.

Perhaps only the very first stage, but you can clearly see them in the pictures posted.

[john_tullamarine]

I suspect the OP's concerns lie more with the apparent selection during the roll rather than the setting per se.

The former observation, if correct, probably is a bit undesirable .... and, potentially, very fatal ...

[JanetFlight]

Yeap Stansdead, you're right, in both Boeing pics we can see that...however in A300 climb we can only observe the Leading EF deployed while the Trailing EF remains fully null.

[dwshimoda]

Dependant on type...

...but if you started the TO roll in my type without a correct flap setting, then you would get a config warning which is an instant RTO.

I'm being very picky here, and perhaps mis-intepreting the phrase, but:

and were fully extended at the moment the mains left the runway. The weather was MVFR and no particular cross wind existed.

Again, on my type, you would never see flaps fully extended for take off - that is for landing only.

A little bit of trolling perhaps?

[Brian Abraham]

The A300 is approved for takeoff with the following slat/flap configurations:. .. .15/0. .15/15. .15/20.

[BOAC]

ASSUMING this is not a troll, the answer is most definitely yes, report if. Report it to the German authorities as well. IF it is as described it should be preserved on the Flight Data recorder. I do, however, have my doubts......................could we be confusing delayed flap extension in adverse weather?

As far as I know, JAT operates 737-300's and ATRs. Why are we talking about flapless take-off s in A300's?

[tica011]

To clarify...

Thanks for all the responses.

Just to clarify, I meant fully extended to the selected take-off position (which in this case was 10 I believe), not full possible deflection on-take off.

As somebody noted, my concern is that the flaps were being extended during the roll itself, and were still in motion at rotation, which is potentially a "deadly sin" imho.

I fully understand that anybody can make a mistake (less likely though if checklist are followed, and we are talking professional flying here), but continuing into a dangerous situation with disregard for safety is what left me beyond puzzled and frustrated...

Thanks again for feedback.

[tica011]

BOAC,

...could we be confusing delayed flap extension in adverse weather?

This is the METAR at the approximate time of departure, I doubt that it is considered adverse (from meteocentre.com)

EDDF 25/1420 6.2 1002.0 3/1 87% 110 2 -RA FEW007 SCT011 BKN018 TEMPO BKN010=
I am being extra cautious, and verifying information with the professional flying community since I do not want to put the crew in an uncomfortable position to answer questions on safety if it is any mistake in my observations. But, now, unfortunately it seems it's not...

Thx.

[decurion]

The flaps selected for takeoff have a direct influence on the V speeds (e.g. the rotation speed). If they don’t match with the flaps selected you can get into serious trouble. There have been a number of occurrences in which the pilots had forgotten to set the takeoff flaps correctly and decided to do so during the takeoff run (despite the takeoff config warning they got). The result was (in some of the cases I known of) that the stick shaker came on after lift-off.

[Nimer767]

decurion

I agree

[galaxy flyer]

The CRJ overrun at KCRW was caused when, the flaps incorrectly set on the taxi out, were reset during the roll at high speed, near V1. The take-off configuration warning sounded because the flaps were NOT in either if the two permitted settings, but in-transit. The captain then elected to stop, resulting in an overrun saved by EMAS.

GF

[Sciolistes]

This is the METAR at the approximate time of departure, I doubt that it is considered adverse (from meteocentre.com)

EDDF 25/1420 6.2 1002.0 3/1 87% 110 2 -RA FEW007 SCT011 BKN018 TEMPO BKN010=

Not a METAR format that I am used to, but it appears to be adverse weather at 3 deg in the rain it certainly calls and engine run up and delayed flap extention. Also the METAR says nothing about the ground conditions. However, the engines should have been runup and the flaps extended and checked prior to the roll. I would imagine passengers may believe they have started to takeoff during the runup.

[BOAC]

(calls for) delayed flap extention.

- where do you see that?

[aterpster]

decurion:

The flaps selected for takeoff have a direct influence on the V speeds (e.g. the rotation speed). If they don’t match with the flaps selected you can get into serious trouble. There have been a number of occurrences in which the pilots had forgotten to set the takeoff flaps correctly and decided to do so during the takeoff run (despite the takeoff config warning they got). The result was (in some of the cases I known of) that the stick shaker came on after lift-off.

I'll likely be sent to the woodshed for this: More than a few crews have forgotten to set the flaps for takeoff, then when the warning sounds off with application of takeoff power the crew wakes up and selects takeoff flaps and presses on with the takeoff.

[BOAC]

One has to hope that most airlines now have an event monitoring system which would catch these cowboys?

[decurion]

FDM

These cases will show on the FDM system within an airline. Not many of them are reported by the pilots via an ASR.

[aterpster]

BOAC:

One has to hope that most airlines now have an event monitoring system which would catch these cowboys?

Yes, more opportunity to catch the cowboys after a successful shoot-out at the OK Corral, so to speak.

[BOAC]

If, as may appear to be the case, your "More than a few crews have forgotten to set the flaps for takeoff, then when the warning sounds off with application of takeoff power the crew wakes up and selects takeoff flaps and presses on with the takeoff." is correct, it appears that training and airmanship have failed - I have no other solution - do you? At least, stopping the 'cowboys', even AFTER a "a successful shoot-out" might prevent another from the same?