Polish Presidential Flight Crash Thread
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"Two Polish hunters from Cleveland hired a pilot to fly them to Canada to hunt moose. They bagged four.
As they started loading the plane for the return trip home, the pilot tells them the plane can take only two moose.
The two Poles objected strongly, stating, "Last year we shot four moose, and the pilot let us put them all on board, and he had the same plane as yours."
Reluctantly, the pilot gave in and all four were loaded.
Unfortunately, even at full power, the little plane couldn't handle the load and crashed a few minutes after takeoff.
Climbing out of the wreck, Stanisilaw asked Wladek, "Any idea where we are?"
Wladek replied, "I think we're pretty close to where we crashed last year." "
As they started loading the plane for the return trip home, the pilot tells them the plane can take only two moose.
The two Poles objected strongly, stating, "Last year we shot four moose, and the pilot let us put them all on board, and he had the same plane as yours."
Reluctantly, the pilot gave in and all four were loaded.
Unfortunately, even at full power, the little plane couldn't handle the load and crashed a few minutes after takeoff.
Climbing out of the wreck, Stanisilaw asked Wladek, "Any idea where we are?"
Wladek replied, "I think we're pretty close to where we crashed last year." "
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.......Watched the BBC news anniversary special last night.
Plenty of fake audio/video archive, such as artistically muffled "Pull up....Terrain ahead", and repro radio coms, all somewhat surprisingly in English.
Anyway, apart from the naturally upsetting interview clips with surviving relatives, they did at least identify the main cause of the accident.
"The Navigator mis-read the Altimeter".
It is quite possible, of course, that something has got lost in translation. Maybe the word "Navigator" in Polish or Russian can also mean pilot in translation.......I wouldn't know.
Something that could be put across to people as a side issue for them to consider when attempting a rational understanding of final approach accidents that occur in mist and fog, is the true shock of discovering the trap engendered by the difference in slant and horizontal visibility. When the viz changes from 'something' to zero at 50 feet, it's not a happy moment. That's why clever ideas such as RVR measuring kit and published approach minima are a big help. At least, since many more have now got Cat3B Autoland to plug in at selected quality airfields, more pilots have had the chance to experience the low level viz disappearing trick.
Watching the BBC left me personally with no clear idea of what was going on, and of course, undershoot incidents can be a whole different thing, together with other lures and complexities. Going back to the 1990s, I seem to recall using QFE in Russia and China, but predictably, stuff such as Altimeter procedures, Polish Airforce SOPs, and Cat 1 (or other) minima will not get an airing at this level. The mildly suspect second guessing on this BBC one was pitched more at the standard expected a few pages into the documentary channel disaster listings. I felt that for instance the budget sensitive (UK) ITV Daybreak show would have made a much better job of it. I'm deliberately not comparing it to the main BBC news output.
I suppose we have to appreciate that without tension-building special sound and visual effects a portion of the audience will doze off or switch channels. It's a pity that an incident as solemn and current as this, couldn't have been handled with more genuine sympathy, and pitched a little more at grownups.
Plenty of fake audio/video archive, such as artistically muffled "Pull up....Terrain ahead", and repro radio coms, all somewhat surprisingly in English.
Anyway, apart from the naturally upsetting interview clips with surviving relatives, they did at least identify the main cause of the accident.
"The Navigator mis-read the Altimeter".
It is quite possible, of course, that something has got lost in translation. Maybe the word "Navigator" in Polish or Russian can also mean pilot in translation.......I wouldn't know.
Something that could be put across to people as a side issue for them to consider when attempting a rational understanding of final approach accidents that occur in mist and fog, is the true shock of discovering the trap engendered by the difference in slant and horizontal visibility. When the viz changes from 'something' to zero at 50 feet, it's not a happy moment. That's why clever ideas such as RVR measuring kit and published approach minima are a big help. At least, since many more have now got Cat3B Autoland to plug in at selected quality airfields, more pilots have had the chance to experience the low level viz disappearing trick.
Watching the BBC left me personally with no clear idea of what was going on, and of course, undershoot incidents can be a whole different thing, together with other lures and complexities. Going back to the 1990s, I seem to recall using QFE in Russia and China, but predictably, stuff such as Altimeter procedures, Polish Airforce SOPs, and Cat 1 (or other) minima will not get an airing at this level. The mildly suspect second guessing on this BBC one was pitched more at the standard expected a few pages into the documentary channel disaster listings. I felt that for instance the budget sensitive (UK) ITV Daybreak show would have made a much better job of it. I'm deliberately not comparing it to the main BBC news output.
I suppose we have to appreciate that without tension-building special sound and visual effects a portion of the audience will doze off or switch channels. It's a pity that an incident as solemn and current as this, couldn't have been handled with more genuine sympathy, and pitched a little more at grownups.
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Catchup?
Could you provide more details on that programme? Would you be able to point me to it on IPlayer perhaps - very keen to see it and all my searches on their website are fruitless 
. Thanks.
=================
S'ok - just found it - and for anyone else interested (as it took a LOT of hunting to find it!) here's the link:
BBC iPlayer - Our World: Tragedy at Smolensk
. Thanks.=================
S'ok - just found it - and for anyone else interested (as it took a LOT of hunting to find it!) here's the link:
BBC iPlayer - Our World: Tragedy at Smolensk
Last edited by TikkiRo; 10th Apr 2011 at 22:44.
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Yes, it's one year anniversary.
All goes as usual. We took away their plaque on the crash site, Poles burned Putin dummy? mummy? by Russian embassy in Warsaw.
Russia was unhappy the plaque is in Polish only, and mentions Katyn massacre, so it was re-placed by two-language one stating it's a crash site etc. - taking out references to Katyn'.
Poles in Warsaw demanded "a Nurenberg" for Putin. either for crashing the plane :o)))), or for Katyn'.
Tomorrow will be commemorative events again, out two presidents meet there. We're all in anticipation.
I suppose one will tell the other - Where is our plaque, monsters.
while the other tells him What for did you burn Putin, he is my prime-minster, I find him handy around :o))))
Then they embrace and go to commemorate.
Of achievements, if only, one might hope that artificial fog will disappear from the agenda; there was such a mighty fog in Smolensk in the morning yesterday, 200m visibility - began at 7 am, though, not at 10, like a year ago. Anyway the first Polish delegation were already there, and even had to delay the event by 1 hour, because of the weather.
They all experienced it on themselves; the fog - then the snow-storm and rain - all in umbrellas - then clear blue skies and sunshine as of 2pm.
How Smolensk weather is changeable this time of the year.
All goes as usual. We took away their plaque on the crash site, Poles burned Putin dummy? mummy? by Russian embassy in Warsaw.
Russia was unhappy the plaque is in Polish only, and mentions Katyn massacre, so it was re-placed by two-language one stating it's a crash site etc. - taking out references to Katyn'.
Poles in Warsaw demanded "a Nurenberg" for Putin. either for crashing the plane :o)))), or for Katyn'.
Tomorrow will be commemorative events again, out two presidents meet there. We're all in anticipation.
I suppose one will tell the other - Where is our plaque, monsters.
while the other tells him What for did you burn Putin, he is my prime-minster, I find him handy around :o))))
Then they embrace and go to commemorate.
Of achievements, if only, one might hope that artificial fog will disappear from the agenda; there was such a mighty fog in Smolensk in the morning yesterday, 200m visibility - began at 7 am, though, not at 10, like a year ago. Anyway the first Polish delegation were already there, and even had to delay the event by 1 hour, because of the weather.
They all experienced it on themselves; the fog - then the snow-storm and rain - all in umbrellas - then clear blue skies and sunshine as of 2pm.
How Smolensk weather is changeable this time of the year.
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If anyone is interested, I recorded the BBC programme last night as it was repeated on Sky 503 (BBC News Channel), and can send a DVD. It was full of emotion and a bit light on facts and I was little better informed after seeing it.
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>We took away their plaque on the crash site, Poles burned Putin dummy? mummy? by Russian embassy in Warsaw.
[...]
>Poles in Warsaw demanded "a Nurenberg" for Putin.
[...]
>Poles in Warsaw demanded "a Nurenberg" for Putin.
And more on-topic, yesterday finally an experiment was conducted after it's been announed for months, using the remaining Tu-154M (102): near the military airfield in Powidz the 102 crew re-created the way the 101 approached the Smolensk Severnyj airfield up to the height of c. 200m, and then executed a go-around, to test:
a) whether the "go-around" button doesn't in fact work without the ILS system support turned on, and
b) whether the use of the button leaves a record in the FDR or the "service box".
Officially the experiments were classified, unoffcially we have a (poor quality) amateur video of one of the tests:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/846025/102-experiment.flv
as well as four "Charlie" records:
113 TSA08ACD A035 F240 06:00 07:00 EPWA T154/KLZ
114 TSA08ACD GND F240 07:00 09:00 EPWA T154/KLZ/U.ASM3/W
115 TSA08B F135 F240 06:00 08:30 EPWA T154/KLZ
116 TSA08E A065 F240 06:00 08:30 EPWA T154/KLZ
and an unofficial leak confirming that the "go-around" button DID in fact work during the experiment.
Edit: guys from a polish aviation forum confirm that the latter should have been expected, and that at least the quick access recorder should have recorded the event of pressing the "go-around" button. That's the recorder that was sent by Russians to the Polish manufacturer a few days after the crash, as they weren't equipped to read it.
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an unofficial leak
confirming that the "go-around" button DID in fact work during the experiment.
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Quote:
confirming that the "go-around" button DID in fact work during the experiment.
after at first pressing ZAHOD and GLISS buttons, with all three recorded?
confirming that the "go-around" button DID in fact work during the experiment.
after at first pressing ZAHOD and GLISS buttons, with all three recorded?
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For some reason the QAR was handed to the experts (including manufacturer's personnel) only last November
Another test flight day for the "102" today.
Taking into account the source of that information, well, it's less than credible.
Anyway, the ABSU (Tu-154 AP system) manual is quite clear here. It won't work. Based on electrical schematics of the system, in the situation we are talking about, that switch should be just electrically disconnected. So, unless something very weird was done when installing FMS onboard, it won't work and little chance anything was recorded by the FDR.
That switch will work without ILS only in one situation. During a ground test of the system before the flight.
Arrakis
and an unofficial leak confirming that the "go-around" button DID in fact work during the experiment.
Anyway, the ABSU (Tu-154 AP system) manual is quite clear here. It won't work. Based on electrical schematics of the system, in the situation we are talking about, that switch should be just electrically disconnected. So, unless something very weird was done when installing FMS onboard, it won't work and little chance anything was recorded by the FDR.
That switch will work without ILS only in one situation. During a ground test of the system before the flight.
Arrakis
Last edited by ARRAKIS; 15th Apr 2011 at 14:54.
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Hi,
Russia Offers Poland New Probe on Plane Crash
See full article:
Russia Offers Poland New Probe on Plane Crash
Russia Offers Poland New Probe on Plane Crash
See full article:
Russia Offers Poland New Probe on Plane Crash
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Not connected I know but maybe food for thought.
From my 11th floor Polish apartment yesterday, I watched quite a violent thunder storm lasting about 2 hours. I observed a Polish military helicopter flying in and out of the main storm cell for at least 1 hour. At one point I saw 4 bolts of lightening more or less at the same time surrounding the helicopter. My first thought was storm training, my second thought madness.Surely you train to avoid storms. Could the rotor blades have been blasted off?
What about micro bursts etc.Am I correct in thinking this dangerous?
I don't work in the industry.
From my 11th floor Polish apartment yesterday, I watched quite a violent thunder storm lasting about 2 hours. I observed a Polish military helicopter flying in and out of the main storm cell for at least 1 hour. At one point I saw 4 bolts of lightening more or less at the same time surrounding the helicopter. My first thought was storm training, my second thought madness.Surely you train to avoid storms. Could the rotor blades have been blasted off?
What about micro bursts etc.Am I correct in thinking this dangerous?
I don't work in the industry.
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Polish remarks on the MAK Report
Link to Polish remarks on the MAK Report (published January, 2011) recently translated into English:
WRZUTA - Remarks-on-the-mak-report
WRZUTA - Remarks-on-the-mak-report
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Here's the report in Polish:
http://doc.rmf.pl/rmf_fm/store/rkm.pdf
http://doc.rmf.pl/rmf_fm/store/rkm_zal.pdf (annexes)
http://mswia.datacenter-poland.pl/Ra...owyTu-154M.pdf
http://mswia.datacenter-poland.pl/Za...uKoncowego.pdf
English version:
http://mswia.datacenter-poland.pl/Fi...ortTu-154M.pdf
http://mswia.datacenter-poland.pl/An...inalReport.pdf
http://doc.rmf.pl/rmf_fm/store/rkm.pdf
http://doc.rmf.pl/rmf_fm/store/rkm_zal.pdf (annexes)
http://mswia.datacenter-poland.pl/Ra...owyTu-154M.pdf
http://mswia.datacenter-poland.pl/Za...uKoncowego.pdf
English version:
http://mswia.datacenter-poland.pl/Fi...ortTu-154M.pdf
http://mswia.datacenter-poland.pl/An...inalReport.pdf
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The Polish final report with annexes - there is no surprise and no big diference with MAK report. Especially annexes was done very good and detailed. I hope that will stop all conspiracy theories and suspicions.