Alice025

Have deep respect for you, technical men, who can match preliminary transcript of summer (produced between MAK and Polish experts) with the January update to the summer transcript (released by the Polish experts' team)(team 1?). With all those seconds shifted 5 sec or 2.5 anyway.

As I understand this update is not final either. Or, at least, it is not "formal". By the way, what or whose signature will "formalise it" in Poland?
Or will there be two, done by two teams?
I guess we don't know at this point.

Whatever emerges as the Polish transcript variant in the end (one team work result or their cross-version that both Polish teams agree about), it will have to match the plane's movements and its mechanisms' work as deciphered from the plane's black boxes.

So, Sad Pole, relax, even if all the talks in the plane are finally converted to each and every crew member saying "we are doing the Go-around - I repeat - we here are doing the Go-around - and it is 100 metres sharp" :o)))))))
(to the side: "No one but the crew here in the flight desk, I am taking the decision myself") :o))))

- it will still have to be matched somehow with the black boxes' engines and tangage, etc, technical readings.

Unless. The second Russian TU is tortured to death :o))))))) and from him is squeezed out a technical reading stating "I don't do the Go-around on principle and refuse to fulfill Polish commands (in particular :o)))))) in that respect. Go arounds aren't planned in me!
And when I do them - as an exception :o) - I do it discreetly - it doesn't get recorded anywhere in me and is not reflected in the work of my mechanisms and can't be detected don't even hope ;o))))))

Then the Russian ground control is the sole party to blame, as Kachinsky brother has repeated already several times in public and to much media attention (from both sides) - his words are as good as gold. Polish crew are un-influenced. They do the go-around. They do it at 100 metres or what they think is 100 metres as they are fooled by all height-metres (here we have a minor problem o, Russian plane, in its turn, doesn't respond to the pilots' desire o))))) or, alternatively, responds - but is doomed all the same by the controllers' wrong directions beforehand.

Here at the end I am not sure of the forecast :o), but it must end up either the Russian plane or the Russian controllers otherwise what Kachinsky said is a hoax.
o)))))

mary meagher

About 20 years ago, having landed my glider on the perimeter grass at Royal Aircraft Establishment Bedford, I was invited into the tower to listen to a GCA or ground controlled approach carried out in a professional manner.

After a certain point, the pilot of the aircraft doing the practice approach was told to say nothing, only to listen with all his intelligence to the instructions of the highly skilled controller and to follow those instructions right down to the ground.

There is no possible way that there could have been an agreement between the controller at Smolensk and the pilot of the Polish airplane to carry out such a critical exercise without proper arrangements. In both tower and cockpit, confusion reigned. Bold Polish aircraft approached and managed to land contrary to advice. Giving the impression that the Polish aircraft had unique and special equipment. The Russian military plane was ordered to go elsewhere and obeyed.

Its all very well to approach by instrument flight down to minimums; to continue to approach after that is tantamount to suicide.

SadPole

Well, in all the Polish forums, the first thing that eveyone says about those second Tu-154 tests is that they hope the second Kaczynski is onboard to oversee it. And, you know, there are a number of reasons:

1. Putin's or Tusk's agents might be contaminating the tests

2. Some of the experts on board might have been educated in Russia, you know, so we all know where their loyalties are, and it is hard to find Tu-154 pilots in the US.

3. Therefore, it is best if Kaczynski and his closest advisors pilot the plane themselves, Kaczynski being uniquely qualified with his bicycle riding permit (no joke – no driver's license ever).

Maybe is time for some "Nu Putin, pogodi" cartoon or something like this:

Video

MaxTGT

Further to it, from a Russian forum:
- But where will the Poles get 90 more officials?
- Well, we could spare some of ours for our Polish brothers ...

Alice025

Mary, yes I think up-to-point directions from the controllers, may be also taken account of by the plane, would be of paramount importance, as last chance to save the plane.

If they knew the experience of the crew, had no silly ideas of "No 1", "equipment" - but that it's boys twice younger than them or more - would have behaved differently. More patronising - and more in control!! I would say.

"In both tower and cockpit, confusion reigned."

From the transcript it seemed to me in strange contrast, actually.
While in the "tower" it's "fire in a brothel during a flood" :o))))) - "take those idiots out of run-way!" - "bla-bla business like to Yak" - "I'm telling you xxxxx have you checked it!" -"bla-bla something to IL" -'the lights! go check the lights!" -"in a different tone some numbers to IL" :o))))))), etc.

in the cockpit there is some strange estrangement, seems tome, all very relaxed and cool. Not a worry in the world. As if it happens not with them. If they were worried - they kept it internal, to themselves.

May be different temperaments that's all. But it seems to me to stand in contrast.

Alice025

"the first thing that eveyone says about those second Tu-154 tests is that they hope the second Kaczynski is onboard to oversee it."

No.
For a comparable replica other things are needed.

They should enter the glidepath not when controller tells them "500 metres", but after having discussed something with the cabin, they ought to find some mutually interesting subject, and do it late, on the third reminder.

Having entered the glidepath too high, they need to keep double vertical speed, and neglect it. Tell themselves - we can't control our vertical speed, no way of knowing what it is.

Then, when the tower tells them it's 745 - acknowledge it - but put 760 on one altimeter, 745 on the other - and never look on the correct one.

They should do the approach in some automatic mode against the TU manual. Just find something that is not in the book - and do it. May be it will work - who knows until you try?

Then they close the curtains on the window, fly over some ravine intermitted with hills and keep to their promise not to look on the correct altimeter. For the cleanliness of the experiment there should also be a tower voice assuring them they are on course on glideslope at intervals.
Accompanied by TAWS shouts telling them they aren't :o)

And, of course, the critical thing is to keep going down

SadPole

Seeing thinking like that, I get a glimmer of hope that one day Slavs will be able to break away from our prevailing idiocy of each of our governments saying things like: "we have the greatest leaders in the world, and if it wasn't for those other guys conspiring against us, we could to great things."

Or, more likely, they are not relaxed but so intimidated and pissed off about their predicament they cannot/do not say anything. With the controllers, you at least know what's on their mind. At the cockpit, something is completely wrong. Flying so low through complete fog and being relaxed? I don't buy that.

I am now almost certain that the whole purpose of the recent Polish presentations is to cofuse the issue. Why (for example) decipher and report the "I cannot see anything" phrases but not give the timing of them? Perhaps because it would spoil the whole story. Even if we assume that it somehow is forgivable that they used RA for decision height, they still did not try to do goaround upon reaching 100 m RA, not by a long shot. They seem to be determined to land and only rapidly jumping RA manages to persuade them out of it. But, it's a little too late.

mary meagher

Sort of like using Radio Altimeter for Decision Height at Los Rodeos, Tenerife, on a foggy morning......

Kulverstukas

SadPole is there any chance to know where was President seat at the plane? Or, better, get photos and schematic of VIP salon. Is it possible that this strange silence was a result of somebody looking through the cabin door pilots was ashsmed to swear in presence of.

ATC Watcher

Ah TFN ! ....with its famous StatoCu "sitting" suddendly on the runway.

This thread is slowly but surely going to end up in jetblast . Plus there is nothing new since a few pages.

Azrael229

The presidents suite was actually right behind flight deck. The general had to actually walk throught the president's suite to get there.

MaxTGT

Well, actually the 2nd pilot cursed at 10:37:04 just after the greetings for a newcomer. Would he have cursed in the presence of the president?

SadPole

Here is the exact layout. As pointed out by Azrael, nobody could physically go into cockpit without bumping into the President first. So, how does one end up there unless told to go there by the President?




Kaczynski has been reported to be so interested in piloting aspects of things, he even had a camera installed in the nose of the plane that fed signal to his lounge. How do you like that setup? Maybe there was also one with the signal from the cockpit?

But, note it is now certain there were 2 non-crew members in the cockpit. Blasik was identified as one, who was the other? MAK report ignores the issue for some reason. Kaczynski in the cockpit was the leading theory at the beginning, then it was hashed up for some reason. Some deal made so the sheep are not confused? If so, it sure backfired for everyone.

Kulverstukas

If it was like this one, then VIP salon is not "right behind" and not too close also.

ARRAKIS

No. There was a corridor you could take and go to the cockpit without entering president's suite.
Wrong again, but that information wasn't really in the newspapers. They don't care about such details

Arrakis

SadPole

The only new thing was the new Polish "preliminary" presentation, that was to show the guilt of the ATCs. But yes, now it most certainly looks like nothing but propaganda and misinformation.

SadPole

Misinformation. See the official drawing of the plane's layout above. Do you have some proof that it was changed?

kontrolor

polish accusation of the ATCOs for the crash is immoral to say the least. Did they told the crew to continue the approach? And whoever is whispering in their ears should at least consult ICAO DOC 4444 or Annex 11, not to mention Annex 2. The responsibilites are precisely divided between ATC and crew. The silence after the "gorizont!" shout was just politeness of ATCO - all ATCOS don't give any other commands, comments or even speak over radio with crew performing or belived-to be in GA manouvre, since we know how much work is going on in the cockpit!

altimeter settings wrong or right, it was proven, that the crew was doing RA approach, period.

ARRAKIS

I can see, that at all cost you want to prove the pressure theory, late president storming into the cockpit, etc.. and to hell with the facts. I'm sorry for ruining you theories, but there was a corridor

Arrakis

SadPole

What proof short of hi-res video of Kaczynski sticking a gun into the pilot's head would you accept?

Fact 1: Per all transcripts, pilots explain the situation and state they need decision on where to divert Minsk or Witebsk. Kazana clearly says in the transcript that President makes a decision on that one. That already proves that pilots were not allowed to make decision on their own. Soon afterwards, they do landing approach instead of diverting. You really think it is such a good idea for the politicians not the pilot to make land/not land decisions?

Fact 2: Kaczynski has been known to order pilots around ALL THE TIME to do stupid things. Such as flying into war zone without diplomatic clearance during war in Georgia, or "stretching" weather conditions so there would be no fog in the reports, thus making dangerous landing in fog legal on paper. If they (pilots and Kaczynski) would risk landing in fog just to save several hours on a weekend trip to the seaside, they would never try that when critical election time dog and pony show was at stake?

Come, on man, you accuse me of posting misinformation, but when asked to support your assertion that there was some passage made across the presidential lounge, you state that it was some top secret venture? Get real. Journalists were on that plane all the time because Kaczynski craved the attention.

So, was that secret corridor through baggage hold, or did Kaczynski surrender half of his cabin, or his bathroom to build such corridor?

Meanwhile, Poland pursues truly IDIOTIC theories to show that it was all ATCs fault. Like those:

1. The pilot was not responsible for the situation as per ICAO rules because it was a military and not a commercial flight.
2. Russians can never be trusted, their military are all incompetent and Moscow driven, you know, but in this case they decided to be at mercy of Russian ATC officers and thus expected and relied only on their orders and those ATCs ordered them to fly into the hillside.

Get REAL!!! You are only making us all look like fools.