RetiredF4

What is the source of this information?

franzl

Karel_x

Ground profile is based on map with level line and has certain inaccurency. Nobody knows exactly the path /right-left/, where 101 was flying. And no map is absolutly accurate. Height of the plane is based on CVR and the presumption that IAS was kept by A/T at constant value, the same wind speed. And the beginning of rat run is only question.

Of course, brown points are interpeted as radar H, cyan as baro H, red disconnection of A/P, A/T and point with arrow command for G/A.

kilomikedelta

This thread has been going on far too long. Polish language contributors have been publishing illiterate translations of commentaries from private sources. Everyone is speculating about the reconciliation of the FDR and CVR data to GPS and photographic publications and hearsay from their Polish relatives. Everyone knows that the Poles and Russians don't get along. This isn't going to change for a large number of generations. Both the Poles and Russians screwed up on this aircraft fiasco. Chauvinistic Poles should not fly into Russia and Russians and Poles will never use English as a common aviation language. Nationalism is not an excuse to ignore aircraft safety (unless you're a Polish general who thinks he will die a hero - but really died a jerk). The Russians aren't blameless either. A pox on both their houses.

criss

They do. All the time.

Really? So you have 200m visibility, CAT I installed, Metroliner guys saying "it's pretty bad down here", 747 jockeys saying "so watch how the big guns land" and you'd see nothing wrong in it?

It shows quite the opposite.

ARRAKIS

Poor kid. Hope a moderator will clean that illiterate rubbish.
----

Karel_x, did you meant a scud run?

Anyway, I think you overestimated their descent rate, which was lower, between 7 and 8 m/s.

I'm afraid, it could be all just another press fiction.
Arrakis

RetiredF4

Criss, maybe i misunderstand your point here.
I dont know your expierience with military pilots doing their job in the cockpit. I know mine. I stated it earlier before, the written transscript does not show any anxiety or uncertainity or anything out of the normal at all. It´s all relaxed and normal standard stuff. And that applies to all 3 crewmembers in the cockpit, none of them showed any sign of abnormal stress. A transscript is not vocal however, you can´t here emotions out of the voice which would help in final asessment.

franzl

criss

It depends on what you mean by "military pilots". From your nickname one can assume you're talking about combat pilots, not transport pilots. You might call this crew "military", but the reality is they were performing duties similar to airline pilots. Add to it they had low number of TT and inadequate training, and I doubt they were not stressed. If anything, their exchange with Yak pilots shows the "scr*w procedures" attitude.

PS. Immediately after the crash, when talking to colleagues, we said that the succesful landing of Yakovlev (with lower ranked crew) was a contributing factor leading to their decision to try an approach. Now it seems we were right.

BOAC

-correct.

For everyone, criss included - In my post #802 I made NO reference to military/transport/fighter pilots. I have also never suggested they were not under intense pressure to 'get in'. All I have said is that anyone who has experienced working with a crew in any stressful environment may well come out with a similar 'off the wall' quip. It is quite normal and very human.

I was primarily trying to forestall one of our 'paranoid' contributors claiming that it was proof someone was going to shoot/decapitate/castrate etc etc the Captain and that they obviously had a gun to his head and his wife hostage. Just forget the supposed comments - they are insignificant. As the saying goes -"Move along here - nothing to see".

Now - where is the 'new' CVR?

criss

But don't you also think it shows attitude towards procedures?

BOAC

criss - you are posting in a Professional Pilots' Forum - I fear you do not understand where you are. There really is no point in continuing this discussion with you. Try putting 'Gallows Humour' into Google.

criss

Maybe. But you seem not to understand the internal problems of Polish military a/c transport. Pilot saying "of course you can try" with 200m visibility while minima are 1500m says a lot about his attitude towards his tasks.

Karel_x

Sorry and thanks fo correction, I am not good i zoology

Yes I know, you are right. Mr. Klich told about it. Only FDR could give final answer. It cannot be recovered by analysis of CVR, because we dont know exact terrain profile below actual filght path. And navigator could call his numbers second later or earlier. Even if not, what is the right moment? A beginning, middle or end of the word? There must be a uncertainty in this picture.
I wanted to show that they had trajectory that was leading them to DH over MKR in initial part of final approach. They changed it 30 sec before the first contact with a tree near MKR. In contrast to another reconstruction, when I used uniform measure on both axes, you can see that their path could be simple, quite smooth without much maneuvring.

RetiredF4

It is irrelevant wether they operate a transport plane or a fighter aircraft. They had been trained and evaluated under military procedures and in military style. And the operation is conducted according military rules. That is the same everywhere in the world.

And as BOAC mentioned, even for a civil crew it looks like normal behavior and talking.

Wrong again. They knew what to expect after talking to the YAK. They knew that the YAK had better conditions than present for their approach, and they probably will not be able to land out of it, so what. It´s not embarressing to go around in an approach below landing minmima, it might be when the weather conditions barley meet the minimum and you cannot land out of a bad approach.

Whatever stress was present (there is in any flight sometime), it was not contributing to the accident in my humble oppinion.

franzl

criss

And that might exactly be the problem. Polish military is losing more than 1 transport a/c each year recently - not in combat situations. In the same time, Polish airlines lost none, flying many more hours. Also remember that Polish military officials said many times, that civilian flight procedures have been applied to their regulations.

"It´s not embarressing to go around in an approach below landing minmima" - but should they commence this approach at all - that's the question. Weather was not "barely meeting minimum", it was many times below it.

And regarding stress, I will as humbly disagree.

probes

But the other one, IL, diverted. A factor as well.

criss

IL was not a Polish a/c, and the Tu crew probably didn't even know about it.

probes

Not that it's anything new, and will be removed by the mods anyway, from the transcript (table transformed for some reason).

10:29:30.010:29:34.0KBCSpytaj, czy Rosjanie już przylecieli. Спроси, прилетели уже русские?Ask if Russians have arrived yet.
10:29:35.010:29:37.02P / 2ПA Rosjanie już przylecieli? А русские уже прилетели?Have Russians arrived yet?
10:29:38.010:29:40.0A(niezr.) (нрзб.)(niezr.)(incomprehensible).
10:29:40.010:29:43.0044 Ił dwa razy odchodził i chyba gdzieś odlecieli.«Ил» два раза уходил, и, кажется, куда-то улетел.[044] IL tried to land twice and i think the departed somewhere.
10:29:44.010:29:45.02P / 2ПNo, rozumiem, dzięki. Ну понял, спасибо.I understand, thanks.

criss

Yes, you're right on that one.

Ptkay

"In 1996 Honeywell and stock company AVIACOR, a leading Russian producer of commercial aircraft, announced that they have signed a Strategic Alliance Agreement for the purpose of using Honeywell avionics on AVIACOR-produced aircraft. The agreement was signed at the Asian Aerospace '96 Air Show and Exhibition. In addtion, Honeywell is working with Aviacor in building the Tu-334 (100-seater prototype and the main Russian competitor of Ukrainian An-70) and has submitted a request in for financing with ExImBank. Honeywell will also support the program of upgrading avionics on a large fleet of Aviacor-produced older generation aircraft."

Honeywell - Air Transport Systems Press Releases

Has anybody any knowledge, if any other Tu-154 than 101 and 102 in Poland were
equipped with such avionics?

ARRAKIS

"101" and "102" had systems (FMS and TAWS) from Universal Avionics Systems.

Arrakis