Conflict
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Conflict
I know this is a big topic but any thoughts would be greatful...
I have just started with a compnay in the middle east on a privately owned aircraft everything was going well until I flew with the only other captain who has not been on the aircraft long experienced he says he is flying for over 20 years commercially he is a local guy, but what can I say...er...he is terrified of any turbulence of any description. It was bright blue skies, no clouds just alittle bit of light chop as I was decending at 310kts through FL300 (VMO at 330) he suddenly shreeked PLEASE PLEASE SLOW DOWN we have a ot of turbulence!!! I hate it , I hate it!!!
Apart from startling me I said what turbulence on a scale of 1 - 10 this was honestly around a2 it would almost but no quite make the term light chop and less than that heaven knows if there is a word . I would expect this from a passenger who had never flown before but an experienced captain?
SO, after a debate I eventually just slowed down to 240 kts for a quiet life I am a captain with a lot more experience on type. I have never flown with nervous commander so is it to be conflictive and say shut your mouth and chill OR say ok what speed do you want then bearing in mind this is a high performance jet?
So when we go flying for our second time together next week how do I approach a nervous captain? I dont want to be bull headed about this but at the same time it bothers me if a crew member is terrified and am puzzled, He just says I fly too fast which Ii take offense as most fly right up to Vmo in these relativelly smooth conditions.
any suggestion welcome
I have just started with a compnay in the middle east on a privately owned aircraft everything was going well until I flew with the only other captain who has not been on the aircraft long experienced he says he is flying for over 20 years commercially he is a local guy, but what can I say...er...he is terrified of any turbulence of any description. It was bright blue skies, no clouds just alittle bit of light chop as I was decending at 310kts through FL300 (VMO at 330) he suddenly shreeked PLEASE PLEASE SLOW DOWN we have a ot of turbulence!!! I hate it , I hate it!!!
Apart from startling me I said what turbulence on a scale of 1 - 10 this was honestly around a2 it would almost but no quite make the term light chop and less than that heaven knows if there is a word . I would expect this from a passenger who had never flown before but an experienced captain?
SO, after a debate I eventually just slowed down to 240 kts for a quiet life I am a captain with a lot more experience on type. I have never flown with nervous commander so is it to be conflictive and say shut your mouth and chill OR say ok what speed do you want then bearing in mind this is a high performance jet?
So when we go flying for our second time together next week how do I approach a nervous captain? I dont want to be bull headed about this but at the same time it bothers me if a crew member is terrified and am puzzled, He just says I fly too fast which Ii take offense as most fly right up to Vmo in these relativelly smooth conditions.
any suggestion welcome
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....until I flew with the only other captain who has not been on the aircraft long experienced he says he is flying for over 20 years commercially he is a local guy, but what can I say...er...he is terrified of any turbulence of any description. It was bright blue skies, no clouds just alittle bit of light chop as I was decending at 310kts through FL300 (VMO at 330) he suddenly shreeked PLEASE PLEASE SLOW DOWN we have a ot of turbulence!!!
My advice...slow down a bit, and try not to be ace-of-the-base in the fast(er) airspeed department.
Besides...you aren't paying for the fuel, so...provide the folks in back with the smoothest ride possible.
They will thank you for it, in the long run.
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I take those points and that has give me something to think about, The sought of reduction in speed we are talking about is decending at the turbulence penetration speed in clear weather , which is a whole 70KTS IAS slower than we used to with crews in europe. For me this is like shooting an ant with a shot gun approach...so as you say dont create conflict on the flightdeck but at the same time its like why dont we just fly around fully configured and we will never do a wheels up. It sure is an inefficient way to fly around - alas its a case methinnks if I dont make this extra effort then I probably wont last long - so there is my choice I guess
DD
DD
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In future I suggest you brief before TOD that you intend to descend at the normal descent speed but if turbulence is encountered then you will reduce airspeed, should you anticipate turbulence in descent then start down early, if you can.
Adjusting speed for light turbulence during descent can be a wasted effort as often the level is a thin one with smooth air above and below, just keep a very sharp eye out for abnormal temperature changes of the air you are passing through as this can be the first clue you are going to get of any rough air.
Adjusting speed for light turbulence during descent can be a wasted effort as often the level is a thin one with smooth air above and below, just keep a very sharp eye out for abnormal temperature changes of the air you are passing through as this can be the first clue you are going to get of any rough air.
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Originally Posted by doubleu-anker
As long as it is not a safety issue, just try and go along for the ride.
I once had a BA management pilot 'imposed' on my right hand seat on a flight into Gatwick. His handling sector. Very isolated Cu around the airport. Poor chap was obviously under some sort of stress. "Back to 210kts for the bumps and give a warning to the crew to sit down" at 40 miles to run. Hey, whatever. He then slowed to Flap 5 170kts at 20 miles "to avoid a rushed approach" (yes, we did
). Take it in your stride.
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Is the wimp you are forced to fly with in with management? In other words can he cause damage to your career in that airline if you object to his frightened attitude? If he has that hold over you, then you have two options. Either settle on an appeasement policy or find another job. If he is just yet another twitchy pilot,with no serious management contacts, tell him to pull his head in. There is a time for touchy-feely no cockpit conflict under any conditions and another time for firm captaincy on your part.
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I disagree. Let me tell you why.
Firm Captaincy has its place. In this case if safety is not an issue why create conflict. You need the lines of communication open at all times.
If you get on your high horse and slap him down you may close down some of those those lines of communication, when it is not necessary. From then on he may notice some thing amiss that on the surface could be irrelevent to him. If you have been riding him from your high horse he may notice that something amiss and clam up. This is wrong I am aware but it does happen. What we are talking about here is a two manned operation and no place for egos. In an emergency will will need him and every ounce of his help. You wont get the best from him if you have been slapping him down and coming the old madam. Loss of face could mean loss of both of your lives.
Treat him the same if he is a line captain or management.
We all perform best when we are not under stress, so why not try and get the best out of your fellow cockpit member by creating an environment where he can operate to his best. So what he is a nervous flyer? We are all scared to a certain extent, that how we stay alive. A person with no fear will not live long in aviation.
CRM, is very complex and involves a lot of psychology.
Firm Captaincy has its place. In this case if safety is not an issue why create conflict. You need the lines of communication open at all times.
If you get on your high horse and slap him down you may close down some of those those lines of communication, when it is not necessary. From then on he may notice some thing amiss that on the surface could be irrelevent to him. If you have been riding him from your high horse he may notice that something amiss and clam up. This is wrong I am aware but it does happen. What we are talking about here is a two manned operation and no place for egos. In an emergency will will need him and every ounce of his help. You wont get the best from him if you have been slapping him down and coming the old madam. Loss of face could mean loss of both of your lives.
Treat him the same if he is a line captain or management.
We all perform best when we are not under stress, so why not try and get the best out of your fellow cockpit member by creating an environment where he can operate to his best. So what he is a nervous flyer? We are all scared to a certain extent, that how we stay alive. A person with no fear will not live long in aviation.
CRM, is very complex and involves a lot of psychology.
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CRM, is very complex and involves a lot of psychology
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Yes point taken.
Whether he should be in command or not would be up to the operator, not the guy who started this thread I would have thought. If he shouldn't be in command, he wont be an isolated case in that part of the world believe me.
An over assertive and overbearing Captain contributed greatly to the worlds worst single air disaster, IMHO.
Sarcasm for me is like water off a ducks back. Don't take the bait. Rise above it, as "sarcasm is the lowest form of wit". Give them enough rope they normally hang themselves before long.
As you get older, it will become easier.
Whether he should be in command or not would be up to the operator, not the guy who started this thread I would have thought. If he shouldn't be in command, he wont be an isolated case in that part of the world believe me.
An over assertive and overbearing Captain contributed greatly to the worlds worst single air disaster, IMHO.
Sarcasm for me is like water off a ducks back. Don't take the bait. Rise above it, as "sarcasm is the lowest form of wit". Give them enough rope they normally hang themselves before long.
As you get older, it will become easier.
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There are lots of captains who are afraid of flying and many more who are nervous. We used to have one who would regularly load so much fuel that the payload on the subsequent sector was compromised (four or five hours fuel on landing from a 45 minute sectors). Yes they are probably doing the wrong job and they probably don't enjoy going to work. Amongst them there are a few idiots as well. But almost all of them have some good points. So hold the poor little sod's hand when it gets a little bumpy and they get frightened. Slow up to Vb (remember it's a target, not a limit) and try to learn how to do the things for which you admire them. You'll then find your working like less stressful and more constructive.
PM
...and don't spill the G & T's in the back. It's they who pay your wages, so go for smoothness above all else.
PM
...and don't spill the G & T's in the back. It's they who pay your wages, so go for smoothness above all else.
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I was deadheading when the guys up front went in to some really bad weather.
We had a real rollercoster ride back in the cabin and I hate to admit it, but that put me off for some time. I've flown aerobatics and done some glider towing and bushflying and genereally never been uneasy about abnormal attitudes, but this was just not right. This along with some other safety-threatening incidents in our airline has made me think and perhaps have made me a bit over cautious.
Nowadays, I do tense up a bit around more severe weather. Although I know logically that it is safe and statistically that nothing will happen, there is still an uneasy feeling there somewhere. I try to communicate this to whomever I'm flying with and I guess it sort of shows in my body language, but the worst guys are the ones who say "haha, you're frightened"... The colleagues who act supportively and reduce speed and try to accomodate my feeling of being uneasy are the ones I feel most comfortable and once they established that working relationship, there's generally no problem after that.
/LnS
We had a real rollercoster ride back in the cabin and I hate to admit it, but that put me off for some time. I've flown aerobatics and done some glider towing and bushflying and genereally never been uneasy about abnormal attitudes, but this was just not right. This along with some other safety-threatening incidents in our airline has made me think and perhaps have made me a bit over cautious.
Nowadays, I do tense up a bit around more severe weather. Although I know logically that it is safe and statistically that nothing will happen, there is still an uneasy feeling there somewhere. I try to communicate this to whomever I'm flying with and I guess it sort of shows in my body language, but the worst guys are the ones who say "haha, you're frightened"... The colleagues who act supportively and reduce speed and try to accomodate my feeling of being uneasy are the ones I feel most comfortable and once they established that working relationship, there's generally no problem after that.
/LnS
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Because or Despite there being two captains in the flight it has to be very clearly defined who is the designated Pilot-in-Command, or in case of a re-enforced crew the Master Pilot.
As this is not a safety isssue the Pilot-In-Command's will should prevail in this case. Simple.
As this is not a safety isssue the Pilot-In-Command's will should prevail in this case. Simple.
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As a crew, you are only as good as the slowest or in this case the most scared pilot.
S0 yes, adapt to the situation. Wether you are a copilot or a Captain doesn't matter.
If it is safe it is ok.
However, if the behaviour is well out of the normal you should have a quiet talk with the guy/girl. The best time is after the flight, not during, and with nobody else present.
In this case you can either correct the behaviour or find out that it is a fobia. In the latter case he/she should look for professional help.
You should only be very firm in the cockpit when the situation calls for immediate action and it is not forthcomming.
S0 yes, adapt to the situation. Wether you are a copilot or a Captain doesn't matter.
If it is safe it is ok.
However, if the behaviour is well out of the normal you should have a quiet talk with the guy/girl. The best time is after the flight, not during, and with nobody else present.
In this case you can either correct the behaviour or find out that it is a fobia. In the latter case he/she should look for professional help.
You should only be very firm in the cockpit when the situation calls for immediate action and it is not forthcomming.
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Uh OH! Sorry BOAC !
Is it really acceptable to have a pilot that nervous in the cockpit?
If he reacted that way to a bit of turbulence ( 'I hate it I hate it ')??? What would he do under real pressure?
Wouldn't be acceptable in any airline I've flown for.
I know we are talking about sucking it up to keep the peace which what often happens in the real world (especially in the current market) but I for one couldn't accept the situation for very long if this accurately reflects how this guy feels.
You might say its using good CRM but in my opinion the bigger picture is the real problem and I fear it's one that won't go away for DDean!
Is it really acceptable to have a pilot that nervous in the cockpit?
If he reacted that way to a bit of turbulence ( 'I hate it I hate it ')??? What would he do under real pressure?
Wouldn't be acceptable in any airline I've flown for.
I know we are talking about sucking it up to keep the peace which what often happens in the real world (especially in the current market) but I for one couldn't accept the situation for very long if this accurately reflects how this guy feels.
You might say its using good CRM but in my opinion the bigger picture is the real problem and I fear it's one that won't go away for DDean!
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He did but I get the impression that in this instance the 'get professional help' option won't be an option.
Very frustrating - just saying I don't think I could cope with the compromise. I'll consider my position as a fortunate one.
Very frustrating - just saying I don't think I could cope with the compromise. I'll consider my position as a fortunate one.
perhaps he should be reminded of turbulence reporting criteria
BTW the reason US pilot's give ride reports so often is that they tell us to do so in the AIM etc...even for light chop and it also allows others on frequency to know if your exeriencing BETTER than forecast conditions ---always wanted to say that!
PA
BTW the reason US pilot's give ride reports so often is that they tell us to do so in the AIM etc...even for light chop and it also allows others on frequency to know if your exeriencing BETTER than forecast conditions ---always wanted to say that!
PA
