Situation, btw old capt & new capt.
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Situation, btw old capt & new capt.
Here's a situation: chief capt, will not listen to the new (young) capt,
even when there is a concern for the aircraft/passengers.
What is the best solution to fix a "rift" between the two,
how can the new capt be heared or the chief capt listen.
This is an ongoing concern, that would be great for valued
response.
even when there is a concern for the aircraft/passengers.
What is the best solution to fix a "rift" between the two,
how can the new capt be heared or the chief capt listen.
This is an ongoing concern, that would be great for valued
response.
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conflict resolution
I'm guessing that submitting a safety report of some sort might not work ... as it will land on his desk.
First, is it a matter of interpretation of a process or situation? Or is it something to do with a breach of procedure?
In a perfect world it should be possible to establish what the situation is, identify why it is a problem (risk, consequence etc), agree the level of severity, establish what alternatives there might be, decided on a solution and then consider the way to increase buy-in to the solution.
First, is it a matter of interpretation of a process or situation? Or is it something to do with a breach of procedure?
In a perfect world it should be possible to establish what the situation is, identify why it is a problem (risk, consequence etc), agree the level of severity, establish what alternatives there might be, decided on a solution and then consider the way to increase buy-in to the solution.
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Insufficient detail provided. First of all, why should the chief pilot listen to the new captain? Does he have a valid concern, and what is it? Simply because he speaks doesn't mean the chief pilot should change. How is he approachin the chief pilot? What is the situation?
When you speak in such generalities, it's nearly impossible to comment with any meaningful input.
Provide the details, and a discussion can ensue.
When you speak in such generalities, it's nearly impossible to comment with any meaningful input.
Provide the details, and a discussion can ensue.
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Hola zedflyer -
xxx
I translate your question to "experienced pilot" vs "inexperienced pilot"...
Yes, there are cases of opinion differences between the two.
This may be a senior captain and a junior captain.
There are various possible situations...
I never had a "rift" (as you say) with another pilot.
xxx
Taking personal experiences.
When I qualified as DC8 captain, and later, as 747 captain, I had completed the training (a few weeks in classrooms and simulators) and the line experience (25 hrs flying on-line with a check-captain) in these types of aircraft on which I had NO prior experience. Obviously, when I took my first trips "by myself", I was teamed with first officers and flight engineers that were well experienced and competent in these aircraft types. And YES, I would listen to their recommendations about "how to fly" the aircraft.
xxx
I had been a captain before, on 707s and 727s, so my "command ability" was (hopefully) not in question. Was just a matter of learning another type of aircraft. Maybe I had more experience on the route we were flying than the first officer and told him what was better for communications with ATC, or which would be better alternates in case of questionable weather. And if it was with a different airline, I had to get accustomed to their procedures.
xxx
As another example, I flew a contract with MK Cargo when they started to operate 747s and had to train captains and first officers (or flight engineers) which were highly qualified on DC8s, and knew African routes much better than myself. So we combined our respective experience. It is a team work. At times I was acting as captain, at times I was first officer... And the debriefing was at the hotel bar with a cold beer, trading flying tips about the airplanes, the routes flown, and the operation. If they wanted to know more, well, the next round of beer was on their account.
xxx
I often fly with other captains, who are more (or less) experienced than myself. If not a training flight, we flip the coin to decide "who will be captain" (or PF/PNF) and it stops there. I cannot recall any grave conflict within the crew regarding flight safety or conduct of the flight.
xxx
Sure, I have flown with rather inexperienced first officers who were somewhat aggressive in showing their (lack of) expertise (on type or route)... I let them play their game, as long as they do not jeopardize flight safety. If they want to know better than I suggest, it is ok with me. It is one of the many instructor techniques that exist. Too bad their paycheck is not reduced for the fuel they wasted if it is in flight... And I let them make mistakes if in simulators that end in failing maneuvers or missing an approach. They just will have to do it again the next day if the simulator is available...
xxx
And if need be, I light my pipe... and I am patient.
xxx
I am retiring in 2 months, just your plain average pilot who knows his airplane and routes quite well. But as a pilot instructor, I am known to have a top reputation.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
I translate your question to "experienced pilot" vs "inexperienced pilot"...
Yes, there are cases of opinion differences between the two.
This may be a senior captain and a junior captain.
There are various possible situations...
I never had a "rift" (as you say) with another pilot.
xxx
Taking personal experiences.
When I qualified as DC8 captain, and later, as 747 captain, I had completed the training (a few weeks in classrooms and simulators) and the line experience (25 hrs flying on-line with a check-captain) in these types of aircraft on which I had NO prior experience. Obviously, when I took my first trips "by myself", I was teamed with first officers and flight engineers that were well experienced and competent in these aircraft types. And YES, I would listen to their recommendations about "how to fly" the aircraft.
xxx
I had been a captain before, on 707s and 727s, so my "command ability" was (hopefully) not in question. Was just a matter of learning another type of aircraft. Maybe I had more experience on the route we were flying than the first officer and told him what was better for communications with ATC, or which would be better alternates in case of questionable weather. And if it was with a different airline, I had to get accustomed to their procedures.
xxx
As another example, I flew a contract with MK Cargo when they started to operate 747s and had to train captains and first officers (or flight engineers) which were highly qualified on DC8s, and knew African routes much better than myself. So we combined our respective experience. It is a team work. At times I was acting as captain, at times I was first officer... And the debriefing was at the hotel bar with a cold beer, trading flying tips about the airplanes, the routes flown, and the operation. If they wanted to know more, well, the next round of beer was on their account.
xxx
I often fly with other captains, who are more (or less) experienced than myself. If not a training flight, we flip the coin to decide "who will be captain" (or PF/PNF) and it stops there. I cannot recall any grave conflict within the crew regarding flight safety or conduct of the flight.
xxx
Sure, I have flown with rather inexperienced first officers who were somewhat aggressive in showing their (lack of) expertise (on type or route)... I let them play their game, as long as they do not jeopardize flight safety. If they want to know better than I suggest, it is ok with me. It is one of the many instructor techniques that exist. Too bad their paycheck is not reduced for the fuel they wasted if it is in flight... And I let them make mistakes if in simulators that end in failing maneuvers or missing an approach. They just will have to do it again the next day if the simulator is available...
xxx
And if need be, I light my pipe... and I am patient.
xxx
I am retiring in 2 months, just your plain average pilot who knows his airplane and routes quite well. But as a pilot instructor, I am known to have a top reputation.
xxx
Happy contrails
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Sad to hear you're retiring BelArg.
My dad who also is retiring very soon after many years on the same type said something that stuck with me: "what use will I have for all of the little tricks and techniques that I've learnt during all these years when I'm retired?"
It's sad but true. Probably no use at all, but as the previous poster said, I hope you continue to give your insight and advice. It is much valued by us in the younger generation.
Sorry for the thread drift.
As for the main question: Sometimes you just have to understand that some people just don't listen to other input than their own. The only trick left is trying to make them believe that the input you are trying to give is their own idea. It takes a bit of coaxing but by leading them into the problem the way you see it, they usually arrive at the same conclusion as you did. It has worked for me on numerous occasions (and I'm just a F/O!
)
/LnS
My dad who also is retiring very soon after many years on the same type said something that stuck with me: "what use will I have for all of the little tricks and techniques that I've learnt during all these years when I'm retired?"
It's sad but true. Probably no use at all, but as the previous poster said, I hope you continue to give your insight and advice. It is much valued by us in the younger generation.
Sorry for the thread drift.
As for the main question: Sometimes you just have to understand that some people just don't listen to other input than their own. The only trick left is trying to make them believe that the input you are trying to give is their own idea. It takes a bit of coaxing but by leading them into the problem the way you see it, they usually arrive at the same conclusion as you did. It has worked for me on numerous occasions (and I'm just a F/O!
) /LnS
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Bel Arg, the voice of your experience should be heard louder and more often.
Now then, someone above suggested there was not enough detail, so can I ask a different question on the same subject?
Captain, a much better pilot for his years and experience, hasn't flown a route as recently as the FO who has done little else for the last few weeks. A military range is en route and needs to be avoided as it is active, although only up to 5000 feet, is the in the area where normally the route demands a descent below this altitude as the destination is close by.
FO is native english speaker and understands the ATC comms well. Capt is non native english speaker, and finds the language difficult.
FO understands the need to avoid, if not, to remain high (too high) above the military range. He suspects the captain has not understood what ATC have said. FO reiterates and suggests a track to follow which is commonly used (in fact he learned it from a previous trip with a younger captain, and it worked well then). Captain says we are at "FL80 is there a problem or not". His tone is quite agitated and implies that he does not think there is an issue. FO says "No, there is not a problem unless we descend below 5000 feet." Captain says nothing, and a silence follows.
My question is the obvious: What would you do in that same situation?
In fact the issue was resolved when, after a period of silence the captain turned to avoid the range, roughly in line with what had been suggested. To his credit he also acknowledged that this was necessary, although that was all.
I don't think it was handled well, but I'd be interested to know what you all think you would do.
Now then, someone above suggested there was not enough detail, so can I ask a different question on the same subject?
Captain, a much better pilot for his years and experience, hasn't flown a route as recently as the FO who has done little else for the last few weeks. A military range is en route and needs to be avoided as it is active, although only up to 5000 feet, is the in the area where normally the route demands a descent below this altitude as the destination is close by.
FO is native english speaker and understands the ATC comms well. Capt is non native english speaker, and finds the language difficult.
FO understands the need to avoid, if not, to remain high (too high) above the military range. He suspects the captain has not understood what ATC have said. FO reiterates and suggests a track to follow which is commonly used (in fact he learned it from a previous trip with a younger captain, and it worked well then). Captain says we are at "FL80 is there a problem or not". His tone is quite agitated and implies that he does not think there is an issue. FO says "No, there is not a problem unless we descend below 5000 feet." Captain says nothing, and a silence follows.
My question is the obvious: What would you do in that same situation?
In fact the issue was resolved when, after a period of silence the captain turned to avoid the range, roughly in line with what had been suggested. To his credit he also acknowledged that this was necessary, although that was all.
I don't think it was handled well, but I'd be interested to know what you all think you would do.
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Doing CRM and doing it good...
Mikehammer -
xxx
Quite appropriate, the issue described is a CRM problem, definitely.
And this thread is located in "CRM and QA"... so, my opinions...
xxx
The captain fails to conduct the flight to the best advantage (level selection).
He further fails to inquire about the F/Os suggestions.
And here, we have a F/O who fails to be assertive (or communicate well).
Is it language differences, maybe...? Do the two, know each other well...?
Or was it just a handshake before the flight, a mere "Hello, I am John..!"
In essence, at/above 5,000 ft is ok, but... FL 080 is too high.
xxx
These two pilots would gain a lot to have a "beer debriefing"...
And learn to communicate.
xxx
Until last year, I was training manager for my airline.
I did hang that coat and hat, but still do training, including CRM.
One thing I started years ago, to teach CRM refresher in simulators.
Initial CRM is a 1 day/8 hrs activity for classroom.
But the cockpit/simulator environment is more appropriate.
No more "sleeping" for 4 hrs, in the classroom during "siesta".
xxx
Two crews - one "operating" and one "observing".
One crew gets in problem, try to justify their procedures (and... errors).
The other crew then can critique... and learn (and insult each other).
By chance, a 747 (classic) simulator is roomy enough for 7 "bodies" (includes me).
In a 737, I do with 5 people, but you got to be friendly...!
And believe me, these are the best CRM sessions I ever achieved.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
Quite appropriate, the issue described is a CRM problem, definitely.
And this thread is located in "CRM and QA"... so, my opinions...
xxx
The captain fails to conduct the flight to the best advantage (level selection).
He further fails to inquire about the F/Os suggestions.
And here, we have a F/O who fails to be assertive (or communicate well).
Is it language differences, maybe...? Do the two, know each other well...?
Or was it just a handshake before the flight, a mere "Hello, I am John..!"
In essence, at/above 5,000 ft is ok, but... FL 080 is too high.
xxx
These two pilots would gain a lot to have a "beer debriefing"...
And learn to communicate.
xxx
Until last year, I was training manager for my airline.
I did hang that coat and hat, but still do training, including CRM.
One thing I started years ago, to teach CRM refresher in simulators.
Initial CRM is a 1 day/8 hrs activity for classroom.
But the cockpit/simulator environment is more appropriate.
No more "sleeping" for 4 hrs, in the classroom during "siesta".
xxx
Two crews - one "operating" and one "observing".
One crew gets in problem, try to justify their procedures (and... errors).
The other crew then can critique... and learn (and insult each other).
By chance, a 747 (classic) simulator is roomy enough for 7 "bodies" (includes me).
In a 737, I do with 5 people, but you got to be friendly...!
And believe me, these are the best CRM sessions I ever achieved.
xxx
Happy contrails
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BelArgUSA
When I am right I like to shout about it (doesn't really happen since I got married). I was RIGHT about the voice of your experience. Here's why:
It IS, in part, a language problem. They have flown together a few times but do not communicate well, partly due to the language, partly because of frustration that a suggestion is made, or frustration that a made suggestion is always an irritation. Both probably find each issue is similarly wearing; tiring even.
The beer debrief is an excellent suggestion, I didn't think of that.
The CRM refresher in the simulator even better, but sadly not practical or possible within the company concerned. Which is a great pity, as undoubtedly it would educate both parties greatly.
Thank you for your reply, much appreciated.
By the way you also proved right JBOZ in their statement above, so they can shout about that too. Then again maybe they're not married and don't need too
.
When I am right I like to shout about it (doesn't really happen since I got married). I was RIGHT about the voice of your experience. Here's why:
It IS, in part, a language problem. They have flown together a few times but do not communicate well, partly due to the language, partly because of frustration that a suggestion is made, or frustration that a made suggestion is always an irritation. Both probably find each issue is similarly wearing; tiring even.
The beer debrief is an excellent suggestion, I didn't think of that.
The CRM refresher in the simulator even better, but sadly not practical or possible within the company concerned. Which is a great pity, as undoubtedly it would educate both parties greatly.
Thank you for your reply, much appreciated.
By the way you also proved right JBOZ in their statement above, so they can shout about that too. Then again maybe they're not married and don't need too
.
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Cimmunications
Communication is language.
But it is not a question of idioms - English, or Spanish, or French...!
Communication can be of NO problem between people of different languages.
The problem is often "social" -
Manner in which you address yourself to others.
It is a question of culture.
You may communicate well, but you might infringe on social traditions.
xxx
In aviation, crew interaction is derived from the anglo-saxon world.
It does not get across very well with people of other cultures.
Think of Japanese social rules. How does a F/O gives advice to his captain...?
My airline culture is from USA, and so is my English language, from USA.
But, I sometimes flew with British crews, was not always easy.
Not only different vocabulary, although using English.
South America is different, much the same as my original French culture.
xxx
Aviation is a rather exact science, with formulaes and strict rules.
But psychology is not an exact science. We are all different people.
I am flexible, and adaptable, anywhere, anyplace, anytime...
Some pilots are NOT. Some captains want it THEIR WAY.
And is it not that reading Pprune is quite an education to all of us...?
xxx
Happy contrails
But it is not a question of idioms - English, or Spanish, or French...!
Communication can be of NO problem between people of different languages.
The problem is often "social" -
Manner in which you address yourself to others.
It is a question of culture.
You may communicate well, but you might infringe on social traditions.
xxx
In aviation, crew interaction is derived from the anglo-saxon world.
It does not get across very well with people of other cultures.
Think of Japanese social rules. How does a F/O gives advice to his captain...?
My airline culture is from USA, and so is my English language, from USA.
But, I sometimes flew with British crews, was not always easy.
Not only different vocabulary, although using English.
South America is different, much the same as my original French culture.
xxx
Aviation is a rather exact science, with formulaes and strict rules.
But psychology is not an exact science. We are all different people.
I am flexible, and adaptable, anywhere, anyplace, anytime...
Some pilots are NOT. Some captains want it THEIR WAY.
And is it not that reading Pprune is quite an education to all of us...?
xxx
Happy contrails
