Air Transat - "Panic in the Cockpit" recording
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Were they having wrong altitude or speed readings maybe ? Perhaps a pitot or a static blocked causing confusing read outs in the cockpit ? The controller can't help in that situation, you have the same info in both places ( the cockpit and the controller's radar screen ), the controller screen shows data received from the aircraft's transponder, so if you have a pitot or a static/port blocked the controller probably has the same wrong information you have in the cockpit. This problem occurs in two deadly accidents ( Birgenair for a pitot and Aeroperú for the static, both times 757 ). The only way you can get a reliable source in a situation like that is another aircraft flying next to you and telling your speed and altitude...Aeroperu's crew request that help but sadly they crashed before a cargo jet reach them.
Last edited by Jetdriver; 3rd Aug 2011 at 15:25.
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A300-B4 has a placard in the cockpit giving pitch and power settings to achieve climb, cruise and descent at various altitudes, weights, speeds and flap settings. A very satisfying exercise to do in the sim. The figures do, of course, work admirably, but to button-down and actually do it in a crisis takes some discipline and a cool head while all about is confusing the $%*& out of you.
Do most aircraft have these placards? (Just trying to illustrate that there is another way other than an aircraft flying alongside).
Always assuming your pitch information has not gone walkabout too!
Do most aircraft have these placards? (Just trying to illustrate that there is another way other than an aircraft flying alongside).
Always assuming your pitch information has not gone walkabout too!
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I correct pitot for static port.
There is no FE on the A310.
Track Flight Status for (TS) Air Transat 211
There is no FE on the A310.
Track Flight Status for (TS) Air Transat 211
Last edited by threemiles; 2nd Sep 2008 at 09:43.
Bring back the Dak!
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But there is on the A300-B4, and rather than unpredictable girly-screamers, I've been in compromising situations with F/E's that remain calm, of the utmost help, even reading-out the parameters I am trying to achieve with various stages of a no-ASI scenario from the QRH while the F/O busies himself with something else useful to the situation.
Don't belittle the F/E. His days may be numbered, but a more experienced and professional bunch of people I have yet to meet. Always a cool and invaluable hand in a crisis. Don't knock the threesome it if you haven't tried it!
Don't belittle the F/E. His days may be numbered, but a more experienced and professional bunch of people I have yet to meet. Always a cool and invaluable hand in a crisis. Don't knock the threesome it if you haven't tried it!
The vsi in the airbus is inertial with a pressure back up signal.I believe that early A310 -200 had an F/E position.I seem to remember this may have been true for the Cyprus Airways aircraft.
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Panic
I have listened to the recording months ago.
Can't really help in getting it back though. Sorry!
The guys just took off from CYQB and had unreliable instruments (airspeed for sure) most probably due to frozen or defective pitot static system. Winter flying and icing I believe. They thought they were stalling but could not initially quite figure out what was going on. There are some hills nearby to the north of the airport and I can understand the extreme anxiety the crew was subjected to at the time.
What is referred to as "panic" is really lots of heavy breathing from adrenaline rushing and a good measure of fear while one of the guys was basically yelling "What is going on" or something to that effect... to eventually realize "hey... we are still flying here and climbing away"... I don't remember the exact details of it but being French Canadian, I understood everything they were saying and the intonations as well...
I fly A330-340s but never flew A300 or 310 and don't have any idea how that aircraft type behaves in an unreliable airspeed (and other instruments) scenario. I have seen this kind of scenario in my recent training while I was expecting it and thought it was a hand full with all the bells and warnings that are triggered by alpha, flap and speed protections which are all bogus then. If you don't know it is coming and have never seen it in the simulator, that could be a very scary situation to be in...
These guys obviously figured it out on that day...
I have been flying military and civilian jets for 23 years and I have to admit, and although I think I have a pretty cool head, I really wander how I would have reacted in the same situation...
Can't really help in getting it back though. Sorry!
The guys just took off from CYQB and had unreliable instruments (airspeed for sure) most probably due to frozen or defective pitot static system. Winter flying and icing I believe. They thought they were stalling but could not initially quite figure out what was going on. There are some hills nearby to the north of the airport and I can understand the extreme anxiety the crew was subjected to at the time.
What is referred to as "panic" is really lots of heavy breathing from adrenaline rushing and a good measure of fear while one of the guys was basically yelling "What is going on" or something to that effect... to eventually realize "hey... we are still flying here and climbing away"... I don't remember the exact details of it but being French Canadian, I understood everything they were saying and the intonations as well...
I fly A330-340s but never flew A300 or 310 and don't have any idea how that aircraft type behaves in an unreliable airspeed (and other instruments) scenario. I have seen this kind of scenario in my recent training while I was expecting it and thought it was a hand full with all the bells and warnings that are triggered by alpha, flap and speed protections which are all bogus then. If you don't know it is coming and have never seen it in the simulator, that could be a very scary situation to be in...
These guys obviously figured it out on that day...
I have been flying military and civilian jets for 23 years and I have to admit, and although I think I have a pretty cool head, I really wander how I would have reacted in the same situation...
I never flew the 310 but I have lots of time in the 306.The warning in the background is probably the aural stall warning.In the 306 it is called the crickets and has a different sound.I cannot think of anything else which would have induced the level of panic in the pilots voice.When the old bus gets close to the stall it goes into alpha floor and full power is automatically applied.This power increase has a pitch coupling which initially increases the nose up attitude.
If the incident took place at 3000 ft above ground the windshear warning would not be working.It has on some aircraft a voice announcing "windshear" and the word windshear appears on the pfd.
He was probably hand flying as when the aircraft approaches a stall the autopilot drops out with its associated warnings,yet we do not hear the autopilot disconnect.
I have frequently seen a FAC failure on the aircraft which removes a lot of the information on the speed tape and the flight director bars disappear.The cause usually is an Angle of attack vane problem.You just have to fly a sensible pitch and N1 until you can hand over control and select alternate systems.
The A300/310 family are a hybrid of 1970s aeroplane and 1980s computers,and I am constantly vigilant for any unexpected malfunction.My colleagues joke that we go in the sim every six months for a rest!The aircraft is like a woman-neglect to pay her enough attention and she will bite you badly
If the incident took place at 3000 ft above ground the windshear warning would not be working.It has on some aircraft a voice announcing "windshear" and the word windshear appears on the pfd.
He was probably hand flying as when the aircraft approaches a stall the autopilot drops out with its associated warnings,yet we do not hear the autopilot disconnect.
I have frequently seen a FAC failure on the aircraft which removes a lot of the information on the speed tape and the flight director bars disappear.The cause usually is an Angle of attack vane problem.You just have to fly a sensible pitch and N1 until you can hand over control and select alternate systems.
The A300/310 family are a hybrid of 1970s aeroplane and 1980s computers,and I am constantly vigilant for any unexpected malfunction.My colleagues joke that we go in the sim every six months for a rest!The aircraft is like a woman-neglect to pay her enough attention and she will bite you badly
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A310 capt seven years.
I haven't listened to the recording, but you are likely hearing a compendium of the CRC, stall warning and single advisory chime.
I had this happen once at altitude once, where we were flying in clear air around a typhoon into a band of disturbed Alto Cumulous that didn't really look that bad. (But it was)
LOUD ice hit the windscreen, we lost everything on both sides, the autopilot let go, the speed tapes went nuts and our company had the warnings (which could only be set on the ground) at max volume; no way to cancel some of the CRC (same as fire bell) so you had to shout loudly to communicate. (Sounded like panic on the radio, I'm sure, but it's more frustration that there's no way to kill the CRC (continuous repetitive chime) on the A310.
We picked up a shidload of ice, the airplane, according to the standby altimeter was going downhill fast but it was eratic as well. We had no idea what altitude or airspeed we were at so I just set 98% N1 and held about 4 degrees pitch IIRC.
About seven minutes later everything was recovered on it's own, and we discovered we were flying about 2500 feet off assigned.
The A310: she was a good old girl, but like many of your old flames she had some annoying computer habits (nag, nag, nag with the chime all night long.)
I haven't listened to the recording, but you are likely hearing a compendium of the CRC, stall warning and single advisory chime.
I had this happen once at altitude once, where we were flying in clear air around a typhoon into a band of disturbed Alto Cumulous that didn't really look that bad. (But it was)
LOUD ice hit the windscreen, we lost everything on both sides, the autopilot let go, the speed tapes went nuts and our company had the warnings (which could only be set on the ground) at max volume; no way to cancel some of the CRC (same as fire bell) so you had to shout loudly to communicate. (Sounded like panic on the radio, I'm sure, but it's more frustration that there's no way to kill the CRC (continuous repetitive chime) on the A310.
We picked up a shidload of ice, the airplane, according to the standby altimeter was going downhill fast but it was eratic as well. We had no idea what altitude or airspeed we were at so I just set 98% N1 and held about 4 degrees pitch IIRC.
About seven minutes later everything was recovered on it's own, and we discovered we were flying about 2500 feet off assigned.
The A310: she was a good old girl, but like many of your old flames she had some annoying computer habits (nag, nag, nag with the chime all night long.)
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I've once had the opposite experience: a blocked static port during descent, causing unreliable airspeed on the captain's PFD. In that stage of the flight it wasn't really difficult to figure out what was happening, but the stress factor was still high due to the false aural warning (continuous loud clacker).
So I can understand that the same failure during take-off must be really stressful, especially since I'd rather experience a false overspeed warning than a false stickshaker. Having a distinct impression (even temporarily) of stalling near the ground must be pretty nerve wracking.
So I can understand that the same failure during take-off must be really stressful, especially since I'd rather experience a false overspeed warning than a false stickshaker. Having a distinct impression (even temporarily) of stalling near the ground must be pretty nerve wracking.
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For those that don't wish to register at Live ATC, the audio has also been posted at YouTube: YouTube - Airbus A310 Panic in the Cockpit Recording
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OTOH, knowing full well just where the multi-sound CB is located...might well find the operating crew in these situations in better circumstances.
KNOW your airplane electrical (and other) systems)...for best results.
Guaranteed.
KNOW your airplane electrical (and other) systems)...for best results.
Guaranteed.
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411A,
No, that won't help you on the A310 I'm afraid. There's no such named breaker on the -200's I flew (vintage 77'.) There's an audio CB but then you'd be lost com and no fire warning, no GPWS, no mask mic, no alt alerter or system warnings or anything (was strictly not allowed.) The A310-200 doesn't have an engineer despite what some have posted here, so without fuel alerts that's a real good way to flame out engines. There is a warning override button that only affects the lower level alerts and then there's the ground prox which on your old L1011 you wouldn't think twice about pulling. Not so on the Mother Airbus first glass airplane. If you do this, you will dick up all kinds of systems, possibly loose pressurization, window and probe heat, etc, etc.
I flew a lot of the American designs 747, 727, DC-10, 737 and they are designed around the pilot and your old school technique worked great; whereas the airbus transfers fuel and goes into a 90 degree straight up deck angle without telling the pilots why it wants these things (unless you're lucky and you happen to be staring at the FMA or the Fuel Page when it gets these great ideas.) It just doesn't know that you can't possibly have a stick shaker followed by a clacker in less than a second.... All it knows is that it will prevent overspeed at all costs.... And it doesn't happen slow and obvious like a lumbering tristar; the power to weight ratio is so much better with the composite airframe it can get away from you rather quickly; hence the type's high "tail slide/Bob Hoover incident/accident rate.
411A, watch the movie "2001" and you will have some idea what happens when you design a computer with higher authority than a crewmember. But understanding this is power. You can step in early and be "Dave Bowman" and disconnect "Hal" early on before he gets you killed.
So, the moral of the story is A310 crewmembers learned not to be a test pilot never pull CB's not called for in the checklist: or else you stood an excellent chance of making your problems even worse. Experienced computer guys understood: Disconnect all the flight automation and hand fly body angel and N1, ignore all the haywire pandemonium and let the Pilot-not-handling go through the checklist and if that doesn't apply or work then you're a test pilot.
Or just play it safe, and let the crappy 186 code try to cool down and sort itself out. This bird was created with singular failures in mind. The automation can't handle multiple probes/static ports frozen.
All JMHO's.
No, that won't help you on the A310 I'm afraid. There's no such named breaker on the -200's I flew (vintage 77'.) There's an audio CB but then you'd be lost com and no fire warning, no GPWS, no mask mic, no alt alerter or system warnings or anything (was strictly not allowed.) The A310-200 doesn't have an engineer despite what some have posted here, so without fuel alerts that's a real good way to flame out engines. There is a warning override button that only affects the lower level alerts and then there's the ground prox which on your old L1011 you wouldn't think twice about pulling. Not so on the Mother Airbus first glass airplane. If you do this, you will dick up all kinds of systems, possibly loose pressurization, window and probe heat, etc, etc.
I flew a lot of the American designs 747, 727, DC-10, 737 and they are designed around the pilot and your old school technique worked great; whereas the airbus transfers fuel and goes into a 90 degree straight up deck angle without telling the pilots why it wants these things (unless you're lucky and you happen to be staring at the FMA or the Fuel Page when it gets these great ideas.) It just doesn't know that you can't possibly have a stick shaker followed by a clacker in less than a second.... All it knows is that it will prevent overspeed at all costs.... And it doesn't happen slow and obvious like a lumbering tristar; the power to weight ratio is so much better with the composite airframe it can get away from you rather quickly; hence the type's high "tail slide/Bob Hoover incident/accident rate.
411A, watch the movie "2001" and you will have some idea what happens when you design a computer with higher authority than a crewmember. But understanding this is power. You can step in early and be "Dave Bowman" and disconnect "Hal" early on before he gets you killed.
So, the moral of the story is A310 crewmembers learned not to be a test pilot never pull CB's not called for in the checklist: or else you stood an excellent chance of making your problems even worse. Experienced computer guys understood: Disconnect all the flight automation and hand fly body angel and N1, ignore all the haywire pandemonium and let the Pilot-not-handling go through the checklist and if that doesn't apply or work then you're a test pilot.
Or just play it safe, and let the crappy 186 code try to cool down and sort itself out. This bird was created with singular failures in mind. The automation can't handle multiple probes/static ports frozen.
All JMHO's.
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Uh, how soundproof are the cockpits on these aircraft?
One may suppose hearing screams of "what the hell is going on" accompanied by alarming chimes coming from the cockpit might make the rest of the flight a little uncomfortable for some of the SLF.
One may suppose hearing screams of "what the hell is going on" accompanied by alarming chimes coming from the cockpit might make the rest of the flight a little uncomfortable for some of the SLF.