Challenging First Officers!
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Weirdo,
There is not really any need to "stick up" for F/Os as nobody here is attacking them either individually or collectively. The type of situation that the thread author was referring to, is one that does come up from time to time for everybody. Without going too deeply into the specifics, it was a very valid question and particularly so in a CRM context.
This type of authority gradient problem is found in many other walks of life and probably with far greater frequency. The concern here is that it is impinging on a Captains perception of safety, in a time critical scenario. The problem may well have greater relevance to the Captain (in this particular case) than it does to the First officer.
There is not really any need to "stick up" for F/Os as nobody here is attacking them either individually or collectively. The type of situation that the thread author was referring to, is one that does come up from time to time for everybody. Without going too deeply into the specifics, it was a very valid question and particularly so in a CRM context.
This type of authority gradient problem is found in many other walks of life and probably with far greater frequency. The concern here is that it is impinging on a Captains perception of safety, in a time critical scenario. The problem may well have greater relevance to the Captain (in this particular case) than it does to the First officer.
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Weido Salt
The FO does not deserve a break in this case. He is WRONG. I think after the replies on this thread the Captain will realise that with hindsight (of which I have a PhD
) then perhaps he would not have been so lenient with the FO.
SNS3Guppy has said it all, "you now resume non-flying duties, we will talk about it on the ground'. Simple. Whether it is 4 down the back or 300 down the back, they do not need a FO with an ego to take them to the scene of the crash.
The FO does not deserve a break in this case. He is WRONG. I think after the replies on this thread the Captain will realise that with hindsight (of which I have a PhD
) then perhaps he would not have been so lenient with the FO. SNS3Guppy has said it all, "you now resume non-flying duties, we will talk about it on the ground'. Simple. Whether it is 4 down the back or 300 down the back, they do not need a FO with an ego to take them to the scene of the crash.
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??!!
There are a lot of good points here but...
I can't imagine any team member in any semi-professional occupation even considering displaying an attitude like that!
We weren't there to hear the inflection and subtleties of the interchange but for goodness sake..!
Perhaps I'm just getting old...
I can't imagine any team member in any semi-professional occupation even considering displaying an attitude like that!
We weren't there to hear the inflection and subtleties of the interchange but for goodness sake..!
Perhaps I'm just getting old...
Está servira para distraerle.
Especially liked the analogy of comfort zones and the mnemomic ASI, Ask, Suggest, Insist. Wish I had thought of that in the past.
As a hypothetical scenario, there could arise a series of instances where an FO goes into a sort of Walter Mitty routine every time it is his leg. He becomes the Captain in his own mind and expects to be left to make all the decisions himself, almost up to and in some cases including, the fuel loads. This situation of the imagination would be further exacerbated if the FO were unable to grasp the big picture, specifically the sort of canvas one finds flying older aircraft in northern Europe in the middle of the winter darkness.
At the end of the day, if the sort of problems outlined above were to persist, the only option open to a Captain, possibly after consultation with the Chief Pilot or Fleet Manager, might be to take the chap to one side and gently explain to him that actually, he holds his 'leg' at the discretion of the Commander and to remind him that it is all very well and good to regard himself as Master and Commander when flying that sector but that in reality and at best he is only operating as P1/US?
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F/O attitude
If the Captain has to seek advice as to how to approach a F/O who is not open to suggestions on how to better control the aircraft maybe the Captain should still be a F/O himself. No one enjoys being bullied, however the incident described hardly constitutes bullying. As the Captain you are the one with the ultimate responsibility for the safe and efficient operation of the aircraft. Pretty simple I would think.
Está servira para distraerle.
One can of course lay the blame for all of this squarely at the door of CRM.
Many will know the story of the ancient Captain, rumoured in this case to be Dan Air who, on being told that he would have to undergo a CRM course expressed the opinion that such training was unnecessary for him.
In the matter of first officers he was quite clear. He never let the little so so's touch anything in the cockpit below 10,000ft.
Thereby he no doubt placed a somewhat different interpretation than was originally intended on the concept of a sterile cockpit.
If you want a simple one-line answer to "I'm flying the aircraft", I have found that, "And I signed for it." works quite well, immediately followed by "Slow down" or whatever you require to be done.
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I do believe that the whole CRM situation has been turned on its head in recent years. I find that I am flying more and more with F/Os who think they are in charge, talk to you as if you're an imbecile and make decisions without seeking consultation or approval. I was taught that CRM involved individuals being gentlemanly and cordial towards each other, respecting each other's status, working together as a team for a common goal. Now I find that CRM encompasses, in some cases, the F/Os fulfilling a need to prove themselves by scoring points against their colleague and continually treading on toes with the pretense that he or she knows better!
Although we would never wish to return to the bad old days where the Captain is an infallible God and the F/O a fortunate understudy I do feel that the cockpit gradient is being more and more challenged. Although I am a fairly easy going guy and happy to allow the F/O the opportunity to gain the experience of making command decisions I feel that with a growing number of individuals I am required to be more assertive and to reign them in.
Is it that with this generation a Captain's respect is something that is earned rather than accepted?
It doesn't have to be such a difficult day out. Does it?
Although we would never wish to return to the bad old days where the Captain is an infallible God and the F/O a fortunate understudy I do feel that the cockpit gradient is being more and more challenged. Although I am a fairly easy going guy and happy to allow the F/O the opportunity to gain the experience of making command decisions I feel that with a growing number of individuals I am required to be more assertive and to reign them in.
Is it that with this generation a Captain's respect is something that is earned rather than accepted?
It doesn't have to be such a difficult day out. Does it?
Although we would never wish to return to the bad old days where the Captain is an infallible God and the F/O a fortunate understudy I do feel that the cockpit gradient is being more and more challenged. Although I am a fairly easy going guy and happy to allow the F/O the opportunity to gain the experience of making command decisions I feel that with a growing number of individuals I am required to be more assertive and to reign them in.
Is it that with this generation a Captain's respect is something that is earned rather than accepted?
It doesn't have to be such a difficult day out. Does it?
Is it that with this generation a Captain's respect is something that is earned rather than accepted?
It doesn't have to be such a difficult day out. Does it?
Like you, all I want is a nice day out. In my days as FO (and I did quite a few years in the role) I would not have dared to make a comment such as "I am flying the a/c". I recognised that the granting of any a/c handling was a privilege and not a right!
Thanks to all for some great comments - I like the ASI system!
Está servira para distraerle.
Well, it rather looks as though the days when the captain could give the foe a smack on the back of his head with the fireaxe have passed away. (F27)
Some of us old lags probably respected our captains first and foremost because they were the commander and, having discovered that they were actually quite normal and did make mistakes, carried them from time to time with a certain wry sense of humour and perhaps pride. Possibly that attitude made for a safer flying environment than one sometimes seen today where two relatively inexperienced flight crew operate a machine which increasingly does the job for them with neither one of them knowing who really is God in the cockpit.
Follow the captain's command --provided he's not incapacitated or obviously in an unsafe flight condition---and especially if he's coming from the more conservative standpoint--is it really so simple?
Can't there be a balance between Van Zanten and Pinnacle 3701?
Can't there be a balance between Van Zanten and Pinnacle 3701?
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 30th Apr 2008 at 13:34. Reason: wrong flight number
OK, I am going to be flamed for this but I have to ask it here and not while being an SLF between flights.
While I have every respect for the captain's authority and the fact that he signed for the aircraft let along that an avoidable go-around is a very expensive way to learn, why not let (to a safe extent) let a first officer to learn by his mistake. Thus maybe making him a better pilot.
A very naive approach but an answer would be most welcome.
Rwy in Sight
While I have every respect for the captain's authority and the fact that he signed for the aircraft let along that an avoidable go-around is a very expensive way to learn, why not let (to a safe extent) let a first officer to learn by his mistake. Thus maybe making him a better pilot.
A very naive approach but an answer would be most welcome.
Rwy in Sight
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Not naive at all and a very valid question.
Of course the F/O must be allowed to learn from their mistakes, just as they would learn from the things that they perform well. Captains dont stop making mistakes from time to time either, simply by virtue of the change of seat, or the length of time they have been occupying it. However the Captain is the Captain because they have aquired the necessary experience and been tested to satisy the basic requirements of that position. There are additional responsibilities and authority that are encumbent with the promotion. Perhaps the most obvious one is that you are then "in charge" and the de facto manager of the flight. Regulation and statute places various legal obligations on you as a result of that postion, and the company employing you, expects a proper discharge of these obligations as well as additional responsibilities that it will define in its operating manual.
The other crewmembers operate under your authority in the dischage of their duties. When everything runs well (as it usually does,) then your role as a manager is a fairly easy one. When problems occur, it is often a case of allowing the crewmember to suggest and effect a solution usually through you. Sometimes the problem or the solution requires direction or input from you as the manager. On rare occaisions you may well need to intervene and initiate an entirely different solution. It is this latter case, and the borderline margin leading up to it, that is really the subject under discussion here.
Certainly nobody should ever be discouraged from performing a go-around in an unstable approach scenario or where the outcome of a landing is in any reasonable doubt. If you are unhappy, then throw it away and start again. However in Public Transport operations there are other serious considerations as well. It is very important (and just as much part of the learning process) that developing mistakes are pointed out and corrected in a timely manner. The F/O will be aware that it is not just a case of satisfying the Commander, but also his responsiblity to the hundreds of paying guests down the back. Whilst a go around should be a normal if seldom practised manouever to the pilots, it will be less happily received by the passengers who might have to wait some considerable time for an explanation. As such, the situation that might lead up to a go around, should not be allowed to develop simply to satisy the F/O's need to learn from his mistakes. That might be the end result, but subjecting the passengers to any discomfort is most certainly not to be entertained lightly, and definetaly not something any responsible captain would normally allow to occur.
Of course the F/O must be allowed to learn from their mistakes, just as they would learn from the things that they perform well. Captains dont stop making mistakes from time to time either, simply by virtue of the change of seat, or the length of time they have been occupying it. However the Captain is the Captain because they have aquired the necessary experience and been tested to satisy the basic requirements of that position. There are additional responsibilities and authority that are encumbent with the promotion. Perhaps the most obvious one is that you are then "in charge" and the de facto manager of the flight. Regulation and statute places various legal obligations on you as a result of that postion, and the company employing you, expects a proper discharge of these obligations as well as additional responsibilities that it will define in its operating manual.
The other crewmembers operate under your authority in the dischage of their duties. When everything runs well (as it usually does,) then your role as a manager is a fairly easy one. When problems occur, it is often a case of allowing the crewmember to suggest and effect a solution usually through you. Sometimes the problem or the solution requires direction or input from you as the manager. On rare occaisions you may well need to intervene and initiate an entirely different solution. It is this latter case, and the borderline margin leading up to it, that is really the subject under discussion here.
Certainly nobody should ever be discouraged from performing a go-around in an unstable approach scenario or where the outcome of a landing is in any reasonable doubt. If you are unhappy, then throw it away and start again. However in Public Transport operations there are other serious considerations as well. It is very important (and just as much part of the learning process) that developing mistakes are pointed out and corrected in a timely manner. The F/O will be aware that it is not just a case of satisfying the Commander, but also his responsiblity to the hundreds of paying guests down the back. Whilst a go around should be a normal if seldom practised manouever to the pilots, it will be less happily received by the passengers who might have to wait some considerable time for an explanation. As such, the situation that might lead up to a go around, should not be allowed to develop simply to satisy the F/O's need to learn from his mistakes. That might be the end result, but subjecting the passengers to any discomfort is most certainly not to be entertained lightly, and definetaly not something any responsible captain would normally allow to occur.
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In order to become a good leader, you must first become a good follower. This means supporting your Captain and being respectful while being pro-active in the decision making process. If this means that sometimes you have to bite your lip, then so be it, that is the essence of good character.
If you don't develop the traits of a good follower, you will never develop the traits of good leadership. I imagine that the F/O in question will enjoy a long career in the right seat.
In the scenario described, with the benefit of hindsight and the other posts, I think the correct actions would have been;
1. Take control yourself. The comment; "I'm flying the aircraft" indicates a break down in CRM. We are flying the aircraft you as PF and me as PM is more accurate. BOTH pilots must be happy with state of the aircraft at all times.
2. On the ground, conduct a thorough debrief. Make him understand the above.
3. Tell him that he is flying the next sector (Weather permitting). Thoroughly brief him on your expectations of his descent profile. Give him gates to pass; e.g. 250 kts/ 5000ft/ 20 miles and 210kts/ 3000ft/ 12 miles and Flap 5/ 10 miles.
If you don't develop the traits of a good follower, you will never develop the traits of good leadership. I imagine that the F/O in question will enjoy a long career in the right seat.
In the scenario described, with the benefit of hindsight and the other posts, I think the correct actions would have been;
1. Take control yourself. The comment; "I'm flying the aircraft" indicates a break down in CRM. We are flying the aircraft you as PF and me as PM is more accurate. BOTH pilots must be happy with state of the aircraft at all times.
2. On the ground, conduct a thorough debrief. Make him understand the above.
3. Tell him that he is flying the next sector (Weather permitting). Thoroughly brief him on your expectations of his descent profile. Give him gates to pass; e.g. 250 kts/ 5000ft/ 20 miles and 210kts/ 3000ft/ 12 miles and Flap 5/ 10 miles.
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Artisan, I do NOT agree at all with your first few lines.
If the FO has the better idea, he is not to "bite his lip", it is the Captains time to realise that. I always try and stay open to suggestions just as I have expected my captains to do when I was FO.
Being a good follower makes you a sheep, you should be a creative thinker and an assertive First officer, to do your job right.
However, in this case I would sign my name under what you have written in numbers 1,2 and 3...
Nic
If the FO has the better idea, he is not to "bite his lip", it is the Captains time to realise that. I always try and stay open to suggestions just as I have expected my captains to do when I was FO.
Being a good follower makes you a sheep, you should be a creative thinker and an assertive First officer, to do your job right.
However, in this case I would sign my name under what you have written in numbers 1,2 and 3...
Nic
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The Captain`s role is one which is earned by him-/herself by going the ranks. The Captain`s role is one which is to be accepted by his/her crew.
It`s easy for an F/O to become hot`n`high og slow`n`low. This has to do with experience. There are a lot of inputs which add up to the F/Os level of experience. One of them is planning ahead. And a Captain is correct to notify the F/O when things are getting to a point close to not stabilized or exceeding limits of the aircraft.
There are several ways of dealing with this, but upon reaching your stabilized gate, and you`re not stabilized, then the call from the Captain should be "not stabilized - go around". There`s too much emphasis on the committment to land as to the option of a go-around. The stabilized gate is there to safeguard to the landing. The rest is dealt with on the ground during debriefing (yes, there should be a debrief done by the Captain after such an approach).
BTW, I`m an F/O and consider any inputs/debriefings from my Captain to be valuable to my level of experience. It also is a learning experience for when I someday will earn my 4 stripes as well
. Much respect to the Captains who debrief their F/Os when something needs debreifing!
It`s easy for an F/O to become hot`n`high og slow`n`low
. This has to do with experience. There are a lot of inputs which add up to the F/Os level of experience. One of them is planning ahead. And a Captain is correct to notify the F/O when things are getting to a point close to not stabilized or exceeding limits of the aircraft. There are several ways of dealing with this, but upon reaching your stabilized gate, and you`re not stabilized, then the call from the Captain should be "not stabilized - go around". There`s too much emphasis on the committment to land as to the option of a go-around. The stabilized gate is there to safeguard to the landing. The rest is dealt with on the ground during debriefing (yes, there should be a debrief done by the Captain after such an approach).
BTW, I`m an F/O and consider any inputs/debriefings from my Captain to be valuable to my level of experience. It also is a learning experience for when I someday will earn my 4 stripes as well
. Much respect to the Captains who debrief their F/Os when something needs debreifing!
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Admiral346,
When you were an F/O (a follower), you learned to be open to other peoples suggestions. This skill is called Receptiveness. This skill, learned as a follower is now put to good use in your role as a leader (Captain).
When you were an F/O, and when you had a good idea, you learned to put forward your idea using effective interpersonal skills, styles and methods. This skill is called Influence. This skill learned as a follower is now put to good use a a leader.
When you were an F/O, you learned situational awareness, the ability to see the big picture and the ability to project a present state (Plane/Path/People) into a future state. This skill is called Envisioning. This skill is now put to good use as Captain.
The F/O in this scenario was not open to the Captains suggestion.
The F/O in this scenario thought that he had a "better idea" but did not use effective interpersonal skills to influence the Captain.
The F/O in this scenario probably had poor situational awareness.
The F/O in this situation should have bitten his lip and accepted the Captains authority.
When you were an F/O (a follower), you learned to be open to other peoples suggestions. This skill is called Receptiveness. This skill, learned as a follower is now put to good use in your role as a leader (Captain).
When you were an F/O, and when you had a good idea, you learned to put forward your idea using effective interpersonal skills, styles and methods. This skill is called Influence. This skill learned as a follower is now put to good use a a leader.
When you were an F/O, you learned situational awareness, the ability to see the big picture and the ability to project a present state (Plane/Path/People) into a future state. This skill is called Envisioning. This skill is now put to good use as Captain.
The F/O in this scenario was not open to the Captains suggestion.
The F/O in this scenario thought that he had a "better idea" but did not use effective interpersonal skills to influence the Captain.
The F/O in this scenario probably had poor situational awareness.
The F/O in this situation should have bitten his lip and accepted the Captains authority.
the problem with todays FO's is that they never have been through the laundry, first a soak cycle for the delicate followed by a thorough rinse of the unworthy in ground school you should eliminate all the delicates and perm press in Ground school--- Afterwards you get a heavy duty washing machine [Stearman/ Waco/ T-6] and wash the rest of the arrogant sorry Bums outta the business-- and then hang the rest out to dry in an E-18
so the problem--- they jus' don't make good washing machines these days
so the problem--- they jus' don't make good washing machines these days
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 23rd Apr 2008 at 17:03.
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PA, that sounds a lot like the sorry song of "if you ain't military, you ain't nothing." Hopefully that tired saw won't rear it's ugly head.
The FO was wrong. Nobody here disputes that. You may be right that a certain level of disrespect, and certainly a certain level of inexperience, exists today. the cockpit enironment is not the same today as it was decades ago, and that's a good thing. Inexperienced pilots have populated cockpits for many, many years; this isn't new. The environment today provides for a greater latitude for input by each crewmember, as opposed to the kingdoms and dictatorships that pervaded cockpits of old. Brashness in youth isn't new. There's nothing new here under the sun.
What is needed is a clear lesson in the chain of authority so that the F/O who misunderstands, is brought to comprehend his role. He should speak up when he has a concern. He should be assertive in his input. He should not hesitate to do his job. His job does not include taking charge of the flight, and should always be equally receptive to the captain for input and instruction; particularly when it's his leg.
The FO was wrong. Nobody here disputes that. You may be right that a certain level of disrespect, and certainly a certain level of inexperience, exists today. the cockpit enironment is not the same today as it was decades ago, and that's a good thing. Inexperienced pilots have populated cockpits for many, many years; this isn't new. The environment today provides for a greater latitude for input by each crewmember, as opposed to the kingdoms and dictatorships that pervaded cockpits of old. Brashness in youth isn't new. There's nothing new here under the sun.
What is needed is a clear lesson in the chain of authority so that the F/O who misunderstands, is brought to comprehend his role. He should speak up when he has a concern. He should be assertive in his input. He should not hesitate to do his job. His job does not include taking charge of the flight, and should always be equally receptive to the captain for input and instruction; particularly when it's his leg.
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An interesting analogy Pugil. This is a subject I feel quite strongly about (it has a direct effect on flight safety). As a previous poster has stated, "I wouldn't dream of saying...".
One would hope that the recruitment process would be able to weed out those pilots who lack the necessary "people skills". Unfortunately the feedback I have had is that these individuals often come across well during the interview. Perhaps some different scenarios should be tested.
One would hope that the recruitment process would be able to weed out those pilots who lack the necessary "people skills". Unfortunately the feedback I have had is that these individuals often come across well during the interview. Perhaps some different scenarios should be tested.