Iberia IB6166, BOS-MAD, 2nd Dec, Cowboys !!!!
Clandestino,
Your post on page 24 was RIGHT ON THE MONEY!
I haven't bothered looking at PPRune for quite a while and the little snippets I have read of this thread remind me why!!
The start of the thread was of a crew who used airmanship and courtesy to inform some fellow aviators that they had snow lying on their wing. My company , as I am sure all other reputable companies, have some pretty good info regarding ice & snow along with some very sound advice about holdover times.
In bad weather I have always found the expression "Any doubt = no doubt" to be a safe and sensible advice.
Your post on page 24 was RIGHT ON THE MONEY!
I haven't bothered looking at PPRune for quite a while and the little snippets I have read of this thread remind me why!!
The start of the thread was of a crew who used airmanship and courtesy to inform some fellow aviators that they had snow lying on their wing. My company , as I am sure all other reputable companies, have some pretty good info regarding ice & snow along with some very sound advice about holdover times.
In bad weather I have always found the expression "Any doubt = no doubt" to be a safe and sensible advice.
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I understand what you are driving at in various posts and have both heard it said by Captains I used to fly with and have made such a decision myself dozens of years ago on cold wings, very cold day, light, dry snow conditions, (-30 to -40C). It is a decision which at the time, seemed reasonable. Today it is not. I know of no research, no incidents and no concerns backed up with data (and not just opinions, professional or otherwise), that an aircraft wing can be considered contaminated when sprayed with any type of fluid or gel.
Thank you for that. I essentially agree and have tried repeatedly to make that clear. Contaminated flight surfaces are nothing to gamble with and I never have. My one and only point here has been that the leap to "convicting" the crew of the flight in question with a label of "unsafe" was unfair, uninformed, and inexperienced. IMHO. If I had been sitting next to him I may also have jumped on the radio with my concern - only if I saw it as truly contaminated with adhering ice. The original poster may have been right on, I can't say because I wasn't there and the temp wasn't THAT cold and the wind wasn't substantial. He never indicated there was any ice present, just a very fresh bit of snowfall in well below freezing temps. Many people decided that was enough to hang the spaniard, it wasn't. I support the SOP, I've said it before on this thread, it is clearly a safety improvement.
Jaxon;
Interestingly I went back to some familiar operations manuals to find out what they had to say regarding really cold wing surfaces and... The freedom to depart with no de- or anti-icing is written there. The words are pretty specific but the notion I expressed above does have an official qualifier - that if the wing surfaces are super cold and the precip is falling in super-cold temperatures, notwithstanding the warm-fuel argument, the Captain has the freedom and authority to decide to depart, (which the ground lead can override if s/he chooses).
Now I have seen such circumstances in practical ops and I can tell you from this experience that after Air Florida, (a long time ago now), we in Canada anyway, always de-iced. "It'll blow off" was last heard more than twenty years ago, so practically-speaking, the provision is not used. What it does do for air and ground crews is provide the option where in the judgement of all involved, it is safe to depart under such circumstances. That's one ops manual for one operator as approved by the regulator. Likely the regs provide similar freedom but in a very careful and specific manner.
Good thread, in my view - those who roast others without all the facts just want their name in lights perhaps, while those who know are either simply heads-down quietly doing the daily work or can't be bothered arguing with MSFSim's. (BTW, I dislike the abbreviation, "SLF" because it is really dis-respectful to those who pay our salaries. If someone is a passenger, just say so). Like the medical and legal professions (which do not to my knowledge share the complete, utter openess with which professional airline crews have chosen to discuss their views here), there is always great controversy in the details of how something should or should not be accomplished. I expressed my views clearly and remain supportive of the original intervention, hopefully which will have been a good discussion and perhaps even lesson for fellow aviators. The rest should be left to history.
Interestingly I went back to some familiar operations manuals to find out what they had to say regarding really cold wing surfaces and... The freedom to depart with no de- or anti-icing is written there. The words are pretty specific but the notion I expressed above does have an official qualifier - that if the wing surfaces are super cold and the precip is falling in super-cold temperatures, notwithstanding the warm-fuel argument, the Captain has the freedom and authority to decide to depart, (which the ground lead can override if s/he chooses).
Now I have seen such circumstances in practical ops and I can tell you from this experience that after Air Florida, (a long time ago now), we in Canada anyway, always de-iced. "It'll blow off" was last heard more than twenty years ago, so practically-speaking, the provision is not used. What it does do for air and ground crews is provide the option where in the judgement of all involved, it is safe to depart under such circumstances. That's one ops manual for one operator as approved by the regulator. Likely the regs provide similar freedom but in a very careful and specific manner.
Good thread, in my view - those who roast others without all the facts just want their name in lights perhaps, while those who know are either simply heads-down quietly doing the daily work or can't be bothered arguing with MSFSim's. (BTW, I dislike the abbreviation, "SLF" because it is really dis-respectful to those who pay our salaries. If someone is a passenger, just say so). Like the medical and legal professions (which do not to my knowledge share the complete, utter openess with which professional airline crews have chosen to discuss their views here), there is always great controversy in the details of how something should or should not be accomplished. I expressed my views clearly and remain supportive of the original intervention, hopefully which will have been a good discussion and perhaps even lesson for fellow aviators. The rest should be left to history.
safety and CRM? where did it go
i stumbled on this post from the AEROFLOT A320 take-off one, that was an eye opener.
some posters there shouting for name and shame lol and Ruski Sergei says
ah its ok, we always go with snow, have no problem in Tupolev...it blow off
read the whole lot posts here (hours)
i think LTD or any crew making such observations are correct.
Only LTD knows if the IB crew's 'wave back' was seen as flippant or was purely 'hitting' on the lady F/O? we were not there.
we were not there to really see the actual weather happening.
the 'snow on their wings event' IS publicly out there, so are ATC tapes, obtainable CCTV from the ramp and terminal cameras yet many here show indignation at a fellow colleagues genuine concern for a fellow crew and HIS passengers over a no-brain no-go in-the-book item which still left unheeded in the recent past has downed aircraft and kills.
i saw a post on a cruise line site titled Italiano's showing off when
Costa Concordia did a 'fly-by' of the island (which 2nd time round ended in
her having a Titanicesque collision with charted rocks) and they got all indignant on that site when it was suggested that Italians can be 'macho' and show off's...how racist! they cried...
For the record Italians have a wonderful sea-faring history but they do have a vastly different culture from Brits or Yanks.
Our years of CRM are also now being used in the cruise ship industry, as is SOP's but
pretty much of that didn't happen for the Costa lot though that night,
but a positioning off-duty captain on-board was noted stepped up admirably when he saw how it all fell apart during the abandon ship process or lack of.
do i see some Costa scenario v.v with the scenario laid out here?
maybe.
LTD made no further comment on here because i am sure he was
advised not too. did he file? I bet he did.
likewise the IB crew too no comment as would be prudent.
do you post on here in the first place, hmmm up to you init!
you say on Facebook you are bored at work or you think the Boss is abit
naff and bingo you get the sack. hey ho, that's the interweb for you and
has a spectacular effect as shown here in 26 pages.
personally have never seen a webpost degenerate and become highly embarrassing for the profession. i am quite shocked by
some rhetoric.
arrogance and hysteria in loads of posts by holders of ATPL's ? phew! do you speak to your peers or sybling crews like that in the F/Deck still?
Gosh i hope not.
Blimey how many posters have blood clots hurtling towards them lol...
i was very interested in the outcome though here as no doubt you all were.
some posters there shouting for name and shame lol and Ruski Sergei says
ah its ok, we always go with snow, have no problem in Tupolev...it blow off
read the whole lot posts here (hours)
i think LTD or any crew making such observations are correct.
Only LTD knows if the IB crew's 'wave back' was seen as flippant or was purely 'hitting' on the lady F/O? we were not there.
we were not there to really see the actual weather happening.
the 'snow on their wings event' IS publicly out there, so are ATC tapes, obtainable CCTV from the ramp and terminal cameras yet many here show indignation at a fellow colleagues genuine concern for a fellow crew and HIS passengers over a no-brain no-go in-the-book item which still left unheeded in the recent past has downed aircraft and kills.
i saw a post on a cruise line site titled Italiano's showing off when
Costa Concordia did a 'fly-by' of the island (which 2nd time round ended in
her having a Titanicesque collision with charted rocks) and they got all indignant on that site when it was suggested that Italians can be 'macho' and show off's...how racist! they cried...
For the record Italians have a wonderful sea-faring history but they do have a vastly different culture from Brits or Yanks.
Our years of CRM are also now being used in the cruise ship industry, as is SOP's but
pretty much of that didn't happen for the Costa lot though that night,
but a positioning off-duty captain on-board was noted stepped up admirably when he saw how it all fell apart during the abandon ship process or lack of.
do i see some Costa scenario v.v with the scenario laid out here?
maybe.
LTD made no further comment on here because i am sure he was
advised not too. did he file? I bet he did.
likewise the IB crew too no comment as would be prudent.
do you post on here in the first place, hmmm up to you init!
you say on Facebook you are bored at work or you think the Boss is abit
naff and bingo you get the sack. hey ho, that's the interweb for you and
has a spectacular effect as shown here in 26 pages.
personally have never seen a webpost degenerate and become highly embarrassing for the profession. i am quite shocked by
some rhetoric.
arrogance and hysteria in loads of posts by holders of ATPL's ? phew! do you speak to your peers or sybling crews like that in the F/Deck still?
Gosh i hope not.
Blimey how many posters have blood clots hurtling towards them lol...
i was very interested in the outcome though here as no doubt you all were.
Last edited by rog747; 18th Apr 2012 at 07:23.
Mmmmm PPruuune!
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Like Rog747 I have just waded through the swampland of this particular thread!
If ever there was a need to examine the problems we face in integrating nontech skill management and CRM into any industry, let alone aviation, then this has to be a shining example of just about all the failings, traps, issues etc that need to be resolved, understood and accepted. Although there are clearly a few trolls there are equally more than a few apparent professionals whose attitudes and prejudices are nothing short of astonishing.
Admittedly the thread is from 5 years ago and I would hope we have moved on a little from then but then so have we become more multicultural and having to deal with the inherant challenges that brings.
Safety and risk management go hand in hand - if it is within your power / authority to reduce the risk then you are be duty bound to take whatever course of action is appropriate. Equally one could argue that the C in CRM could easily be left out in certain circumstances leaving just Resource Management. Pax, gate staff, baggage handlers, ATC, caterers, cleaners, other crew etc etc all can be in possession of valuable information which is useless unless communicated to the Capt. I actively encourage anyone with doubts or concerns to speak up and then either act on their observations or explain why I don't. That last slice of cheese can be turned at any time!
As professional crew we all need to be aware of the intense media probing & scrutiny we will be subjected to if we were involved in any unfortunate situation. We are however, continually under the microscope day by day by the public, and with the explosion of social networking sites, smartphones with HD video etc you can be sure that any contentious issues will be on the Tube / public domain in seconds. Consequently we need to ensure we are squeaky clean in conducting our business, and it's not going to get better!
If ever there was a need to examine the problems we face in integrating nontech skill management and CRM into any industry, let alone aviation, then this has to be a shining example of just about all the failings, traps, issues etc that need to be resolved, understood and accepted. Although there are clearly a few trolls there are equally more than a few apparent professionals whose attitudes and prejudices are nothing short of astonishing.
Admittedly the thread is from 5 years ago and I would hope we have moved on a little from then but then so have we become more multicultural and having to deal with the inherant challenges that brings.
Safety and risk management go hand in hand - if it is within your power / authority to reduce the risk then you are be duty bound to take whatever course of action is appropriate. Equally one could argue that the C in CRM could easily be left out in certain circumstances leaving just Resource Management. Pax, gate staff, baggage handlers, ATC, caterers, cleaners, other crew etc etc all can be in possession of valuable information which is useless unless communicated to the Capt. I actively encourage anyone with doubts or concerns to speak up and then either act on their observations or explain why I don't. That last slice of cheese can be turned at any time!
As professional crew we all need to be aware of the intense media probing & scrutiny we will be subjected to if we were involved in any unfortunate situation. We are however, continually under the microscope day by day by the public, and with the explosion of social networking sites, smartphones with HD video etc you can be sure that any contentious issues will be on the Tube / public domain in seconds. Consequently we need to ensure we are squeaky clean in conducting our business, and it's not going to get better!
greek god
lol goodness what a great name lol
i see mods have moved this now to CRM which is good.
yes CRM or just RM as you say which in this IB case still failed everyone concerned and likewise in Costa Concordia too...similarities in behaviour and cultural patterns, yep i think so.
i think costa Concordia is a hugely interesting incident which reflects
on all CRM enormously on both modes of air and sea commands.
if you haven't seen the Bridge video then see here:
and for uk ppruners
The Sinking of the Concordia Caught on Camera - 4oD - Channel 4
the first on the bridge part is at 16m 15s then other clips follow on.
the whole episode is worth a watch.
makes you all think we are ALL on camera now and at work too.
social media and interweb has seen to that.
these two below, 32 years apart:
1977 TFS, KLM F/E to (Chief B747) pilot in command, that Pan Am is he clear?
OH YES! (with throttles advancing) a minute later almost 600 dead.
2009 Flash Sharm El Sheikh F/0 to Captain, aircraft is turning right? (SID was for a left turn) no answer from Capt, a/c in the sea a minute later 148 dead.
(a jump seat pilot was also sitting behind them)
and in 2007 the Iberia guys, why for one reason or another?, ATC replies were
abrupt and suggest strained, but then all 3 crew waving at the adjacent BA aircraft which had just pointed out to them they had snow contaminated wings,
why the wave? a cocky flippant wave or a suggestive wave to the nice speaking lady F/O sitting in the BA747?
further abrupt ATC responses, ATC again suggest de-icing? IB response:
we don't need it.
end result here was maybe tea and biscuits (or a cafe con leche in this case) with el chief capitano in MADRID.
lucky for them and their 300 pax they made it home for tea and biscuits.
and in 2012 for the Moscow Ruski's in their A320 winged snowmobile?
Hah! it no problem, snow? it always blow off in Tupolev...
i see mods have moved this now to CRM which is good.
yes CRM or just RM as you say which in this IB case still failed everyone concerned and likewise in Costa Concordia too...similarities in behaviour and cultural patterns, yep i think so.
i think costa Concordia is a hugely interesting incident which reflects
on all CRM enormously on both modes of air and sea commands.
if you haven't seen the Bridge video then see here:
The Sinking of the Concordia Caught on Camera - 4oD - Channel 4
the first on the bridge part is at 16m 15s then other clips follow on.
the whole episode is worth a watch.
makes you all think we are ALL on camera now and at work too.
social media and interweb has seen to that.
these two below, 32 years apart:
1977 TFS, KLM F/E to (Chief B747) pilot in command, that Pan Am is he clear?
OH YES! (with throttles advancing) a minute later almost 600 dead.
2009 Flash Sharm El Sheikh F/0 to Captain, aircraft is turning right? (SID was for a left turn) no answer from Capt, a/c in the sea a minute later 148 dead.
(a jump seat pilot was also sitting behind them)
and in 2007 the Iberia guys, why for one reason or another?, ATC replies were
abrupt and suggest strained, but then all 3 crew waving at the adjacent BA aircraft which had just pointed out to them they had snow contaminated wings,
why the wave? a cocky flippant wave or a suggestive wave to the nice speaking lady F/O sitting in the BA747?
further abrupt ATC responses, ATC again suggest de-icing? IB response:
we don't need it.
end result here was maybe tea and biscuits (or a cafe con leche in this case) with el chief capitano in MADRID.
lucky for them and their 300 pax they made it home for tea and biscuits.
and in 2012 for the Moscow Ruski's in their A320 winged snowmobile?
Hah! it no problem, snow? it always blow off in Tupolev...
Last edited by rog747; 18th Apr 2012 at 14:51. Reason: thanks mods for moving to CRM
Just an observation but I well remember following this thread in amazement at the time but the thing that struck me about the very first post was the statement "Yes you do!!". I remember thinking that if only instead of that statement, the tower had been informed something along the lines that they had an extremely good view of the left wing of the Iberia and it currently had approx x cms of snow adhering to it and would he let Iberia know please, that it was possible, just possible, that the outcome of that incident might have been different.
Kind of like a CRM thing...
Or maybe I'm just kidding myself.
Anyway, and as per the ops manual, I am firmly in the completely clean wing camp, and if there is even a hint of doubt in my mind between condensation, or anything else, and frost, we do not move until MY hand has been on top of a wing, having had a good look at both of them.
Kind of like a CRM thing...
Or maybe I'm just kidding myself.
Anyway, and as per the ops manual, I am firmly in the completely clean wing camp, and if there is even a hint of doubt in my mind between condensation, or anything else, and frost, we do not move until MY hand has been on top of a wing, having had a good look at both of them.
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Boston is one of those airports where the FAA has inspector in the tower in addition to ATC controllers. simply state on the radio...ground, advise FAA inspector that iberia is taking off in apparent violation of regulations concerning ice.
safety is one thing...but losing your license means NO MORE MONEY...works wonders
safety is one thing...but losing your license means NO MORE MONEY...works wonders
