calling for flaps?
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,420
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From: AEP
Boeing FCTM or AOM Procedures
Boeing procedures from manufacturer's publications (747 FCTM or AOM) are -
xxx
PF calls "FLAPS XX"
PNF selects flaps xx and responds "FLAPS MOVING XX"
PNF resets airspeed bugs.
xxx
Note: if a "gate stop" is located between two flaps settings - in addition...
PNF responds "SPEED CHECKED - FLAPS MOVING XX" and resets airspeed bugs.
xxx
These procedures are observed by most Boeing operators worldwide...
USA carriers often do differently since they know better how to design planes.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
PF calls "FLAPS XX"
PNF selects flaps xx and responds "FLAPS MOVING XX"
PNF resets airspeed bugs.
xxx
Note: if a "gate stop" is located between two flaps settings - in addition...
PNF responds "SPEED CHECKED - FLAPS MOVING XX" and resets airspeed bugs.
xxx
These procedures are observed by most Boeing operators worldwide...
USA carriers often do differently since they know better how to design planes.
xxx
Happy contrails
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: michigan
I see most of the responses here involve moving the bug once flaps are selected.. Is this because the ref changes, or do you reset the bug just to bug a speed limitation when xx amount of flaps are selected?
Please forgive the ignorance, my a/c only weighs 28,000 pounds
Please forgive the ignorance, my a/c only weighs 28,000 pounds
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 518
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From: Chicago, IL, USA
Nothing to forgive.
There's nothing wrong with honest questions and to hell with anyone that has a problem with it.
We change the bug setting because the minimum maneuvering speed changes with each flap setting.
Vref won't change with flap settings, per se. It's based on your weight and *planned* flap setting at landing (and other factors).
I hope that clears up some of your questions.
We change the bug setting because the minimum maneuvering speed changes with each flap setting.
Vref won't change with flap settings, per se. It's based on your weight and *planned* flap setting at landing (and other factors).
I hope that clears up some of your questions.
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 290
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From: Now at Home
one way to do it:
PF: "Flaps 1"
PNF: "speed checked", and when selected, "Flaps 1"
That's all. End of procedure.
BUT 1000 companies - 1001 call outs!! (minimum) and every company insists that their SOP "callout" is the only "correct" one
PF: "Flaps 1"
PNF: "speed checked", and when selected, "Flaps 1"
That's all. End of procedure.
BUT 1000 companies - 1001 call outs!! (minimum) and every company insists that their SOP "callout" is the only "correct" one
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 1
From: AEP
Airline SOPs and check-list calls
Each airlines want it their ways...
Wrong...
xxx
- The SOPs and check-list calls are actually reflecting the airline's chief pilot´s -
(1) former airline SOPs (then no need for him to study new procedures)
(2) accidents and incidents record (he forgot the gear once)
(3) aviation violations (busted altitudes a couple of times)
(4) color blindness (three GREENS - as he confuses with RED lights)
(5) hearing loss (check-list responses repeated twice)
(6) memory impairment (100 feet to minimums call)
(7) visual acuity (runway in sight call)
xxx
Happy contrails
Wrong...
xxx
- The SOPs and check-list calls are actually reflecting the airline's chief pilot´s -
(1) former airline SOPs (then no need for him to study new procedures)
(2) accidents and incidents record (he forgot the gear once)
(3) aviation violations (busted altitudes a couple of times)
(4) color blindness (three GREENS - as he confuses with RED lights)
(5) hearing loss (check-list responses repeated twice)
(6) memory impairment (100 feet to minimums call)
(7) visual acuity (runway in sight call)
xxx
Happy contrails
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
In the company I work for now, with Lockheed L1011 aircraft, the standard is...
Call for what you want, and it is selected.
Period.
None of this 'speed checked' business, nor any new bugs set.
After all, as a pilot, you are supposed to know what the flap limit speeds are, and once thus selected, what the minimum maneuvering speed is.
Can't remember the limit speed?
Look on the flap position indicator.
Lockheed thought of everything.
Call for what you want, and it is selected.
Period.
None of this 'speed checked' business, nor any new bugs set.
After all, as a pilot, you are supposed to know what the flap limit speeds are, and once thus selected, what the minimum maneuvering speed is.
Can't remember the limit speed?
Look on the flap position indicator.
Lockheed thought of everything.
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 390
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From: Scotland
Our SOP;
PF: "Flaps 18"
PNF: "Speed checked"...pause..."Flaps"...(say slowly and grab handle to confirm flap lever and select)..."18"
PNF: "Flaps 18 set" once actually set
On taxi out we adopt a different procedure. PF calls "Select flaps". PNF does the same routine as above stating the flaps as per takeoff data card. Primary reason is to cross check flap setting and to make you think about what you are selecting for t/o. This because on regular occasions we takeoff with landing (!) flap set as well.
PF: "Flaps 18"
PNF: "Speed checked"...pause..."Flaps"...(say slowly and grab handle to confirm flap lever and select)..."18"
PNF: "Flaps 18 set" once actually set
On taxi out we adopt a different procedure. PF calls "Select flaps". PNF does the same routine as above stating the flaps as per takeoff data card. Primary reason is to cross check flap setting and to make you think about what you are selecting for t/o. This because on regular occasions we takeoff with landing (!) flap set as well.
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 576
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From: Planet Earth
Ok, well i might as well throw in my bit.
Out here in the "land of plenty" where we fly lots of 777's and our management reckon they know better that everyone else, we do it this way:
PF... "Flaps 1"
PNF... Selects Flap 1.... and says nothing!
comments on a post card please.................
Out here in the "land of plenty" where we fly lots of 777's and our management reckon they know better that everyone else, we do it this way:
PF... "Flaps 1"
PNF... Selects Flap 1.... and says nothing!
comments on a post card please.................
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
PF... "Flaps 1"
PNF... Selects Flap 1.... and says nothing!
PNF... Selects Flap 1.... and says nothing!
All this chit-chat (speed checked...flaps moving...flaps selected) nonsense is just simply not required with professional airline crews...or at least it should not be....
Joined: Jun 2004
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From: Australia
I'm with puff m'call and 411A on this one, far too much VD in our cockpits these days (Verbal Diarrhoea).
For God's sake, I'm a professional pilot, the PNF is also a professional pilot, if I call "Flaps 5", I monitor that the PNF has selected it after checking the speed, I monitor that the Flaps are running, and I monitor that the flaps reach the selected position. So too, does the PNF, and as he re-sets the speed bug, I monitor that too.
If the PNF does not respond to the command, I assume that he hasn't heard it, and repeat it a little louder. If he still doesn't hear it, I begin to suspect incapacitation, but that's another issue......
Sometimes I think that to some, all of the chants and mantras are more important than just doing the job.
Regards,
Old Smokey
For God's sake, I'm a professional pilot, the PNF is also a professional pilot, if I call "Flaps 5", I monitor that the PNF has selected it after checking the speed, I monitor that the Flaps are running, and I monitor that the flaps reach the selected position. So too, does the PNF, and as he re-sets the speed bug, I monitor that too.
If the PNF does not respond to the command, I assume that he hasn't heard it, and repeat it a little louder. If he still doesn't hear it, I begin to suspect incapacitation, but that's another issue......
Sometimes I think that to some, all of the chants and mantras are more important than just doing the job.
Regards,
Old Smokey
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 518
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From: Chicago, IL, USA
Let's work together.
Interaction (verbal or otherwise) between crewmembers is *almost* as important as handling the plane.
Personally I hate it when a crewmember goes non-verbal on me and just points or grunts.
I try to respond to all calls or requests with at *least* "roger" or "that checks".
If I make a call or request I'd appreciate the same courtesy.
Personally I hate it when a crewmember goes non-verbal on me and just points or grunts.
I try to respond to all calls or requests with at *least* "roger" or "that checks".
If I make a call or request I'd appreciate the same courtesy.
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,204
Likes: 26
From: Australia
Quote:
Sometimes I think that to some, all of the chants and mantras are more important than just doing the job.
Couldn't agree more. Some people would seem to prefer to fly the aeroplane into a smoking hole than get an SOP call wrong.
(well obviously it's not smoking yet,but you get the idea
Sometimes I think that to some, all of the chants and mantras are more important than just doing the job.
Couldn't agree more. Some people would seem to prefer to fly the aeroplane into a smoking hole than get an SOP call wrong.
(well obviously it's not smoking yet,but you get the idea
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 290
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From: Now at Home
Some people would seem to prefer to fly the aeroplane into a smoking hole than get an SOP call wrong.
and those people unfortunately getting more and more and more each day. I don't know why.
Maybe nowadays the aircraft manufacturers make flying too easy. So to keep us busy a lot of airlines implementing talking, talking, talking by (rather often) completely unnecessarily SOP.
Involved in the cockpit working-atmosphere since a couple of years now, the working enviroment inside the cockpits has changed completely.
Nowadays its much more a TALKshow for three (incl the CVR), instead of a just a professional flight management office.