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Mayday or not to mayday?

Old 19th Sep 2005, 22:08
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The way I see it is pilots are like engines. You have two in case one dies! You can still fly with one though as with engines when one is doing all the work it is more likely to fall over itself. To me thats definitely an emergency
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Old 19th Sep 2005, 22:56
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There is no doubt about it, Mayday.

In fact happened in our company a few years back and NATS and our Management had a meeting about it as the FO didn't delcare an emergency and NATS were thinking that they should have done.
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Old 19th Sep 2005, 23:51
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There is no doubt about it, Mayday.
I couldn't agree more.
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Old 20th Sep 2005, 03:27
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There must be a an awful lot of single crew aeroplanes flying around in a permanent state of Mayday - and I suppose we should declare one every time a crew member has to drop his trousers in the loo! The other guy's all by himself for perhaps 5 minutes - gosh anything could happen - Mayday, Mayday!
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Old 20th Sep 2005, 05:06
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I have admit that I would 'normally' just declare PAN PAN in such an event. I add a rider to that, in that in some parts of the world, the PAN call is not readily recognised, in which case a MAYDAY call would be more appropriate.

I think that a basic incapacitation however, does not put the aircraft into a situation where 'the survival of all on board is in imminent risk' (ie MAYDAY), but more into a situation where 'there is no immediate risk' (ie PAN) but where ATC need to put in place measures to ensure priority handling.
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Old 20th Sep 2005, 07:34
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The way I see it is pilots are like engines. You have two in case one dies!

Maybe there should be an ETOPS-type certification for pilots, so that one pilot can fly for 120 minutes or 180 minutes by himself...
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Old 21st Sep 2005, 08:50
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Since when is a bog standard engine failure an emergency situation?

A mayday should only be issued if the people on the ground can assist you. Simple.

I cannot think why and how ATC / emergency services / Handling / your mother could help you if your engine is shut down because of low oil pressure!

Back to school for some of you guys I think.
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Old 21st Sep 2005, 09:09
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A4

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Fiona. If I have one donk shut down, I don't particularly want to fly around the hold for 20 minutes waiting my turn to land. On my particular craft it says LAND ASAP in red right in front of me.

So you don't think people on the ground can assisit you? An emergency isn't over until the aircraft is safely on the ground, secured/shutdown with all occupants safe (possibly evacuated) and accounted for. How are you going to achieve that without assistance?

ATC might just appreciate knowing that there may be potential problems with exiting the runway after you've landed, or the possibility that oil / hydraulic fluid has pi$$ed all over your brakes with chance of a resulting fire/smoke issue. Or that you are very performance limited etc etc etc

I'd like to think this is a wind up and I've bitten...... but if it isn't then I think perhaps you're the one who should be going back to school.

A4
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Old 21st Sep 2005, 09:20
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>Since when is a bog standard engine failure an emergency situation?

********************************
If it's your one and only engine?

(B52s can declare a seven-engine approach. )
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Old 21st Sep 2005, 09:26
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Mayday

Now stop arguing children - we can all now clearly see that a MAYDAY was called for....
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Old 21st Sep 2005, 11:39
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Ok your right. Its an emergency if you have a failure of an engine in a single engined aircraft as the only way you are going is down!!

A4 for your education....

Multi engine aircraft are designed to fly happily on one. Twenty minutes in a holding pattern is neither here nor there. Think about transpacific and transatlantic operations. Just because engines are bigger it doesn't mean they are safer.

The problem with some of you public school boys is that you jump at the slightest problem.

Some advice for you A4. Sit on your hands and leave well alone. Most aircraft accidents are caused by pilot error. Don't forget that. Calling mayday just because of an engine rundown is totally
unnecessary.
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Old 21st Sep 2005, 11:48
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"The problem with public schoolboys....."

Hmmmmmm. And we all know the problem with YOU Fiona! Blatant disregard for your fellow colleagues etc etc.

"A Mayday should only be issued if the people on the ground can assist you" - well, surely in the case of a relatively low-hour guy/gal, new on type, assistance can be gained from ATC by calling a Mayday.....

My company says we should if we have an incapacitation, but even if they didn't have it as standard, I probably would at this stage in the game (new on type).

Go back to play-school yourself!
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Old 21st Sep 2005, 12:11
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On my particular craft it says LAND ASAP in red right in front of me.
I hope not, A4. Some of our drills say "as soon as possible" and others say "as soon as practicable". Both are ASAP, but the second allows time (for example to hold, if that's necessary).
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Old 21st Sep 2005, 12:22
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Fiona for your education....... I'm certainly no public school boy. Just a basic comprehensive education - left at 16 with a clutch of modest 'O' levels.

You have not stated whether you're talking about twin ops or 3 / 4 engine ops. As the thread started off about B-Med let's assume it's twin Ops.

Your quite right that a/c can fly on one engine - it's a certification requirement you know...... Presumably then if YOU have a failure on take-off, you're going to continue on to destination (if you have sufficient fuel) because it is "designed to fly happily on one" engine.

At no point have I said about "jumping". In fact my briefs to the FO regarding an aborted take-off include the phrase "once the park brake is set, and the cabin crew are at station, WE WILL SIT ON OUR HANDS and asses the situation."

If you insist that you would not call Mayday for an engine failure, what would you say to ATC, if anything? If you advise them that you have an engine shutdown, you'll be met by lots of flashing lights anyway so I see no reason to not call Mayday. If you don't tell ATC then what are you going to put in the Tech Log? I cannot begin to understand your thinking for not wanting to get as much assistance as is available to you - do you think your some kind of superhero?

As I say I'm sure your just winding us up. If not I pity anyone who is with you should you suffer an engine failure. Great CRM.

A4

keithl:

I think the inference is to land the aircraft as soon as possible having done all the necessary drills etc, not throw it on the ground ASAP, as opposed to continuing. It will either be in amber or red depending upon the severity of the failure.

A4
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Old 21st Sep 2005, 12:57
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There is a new Pilatus which takes, I think 12 pax but it only has one engine. Presuming that you don't have to call MayDay after every take-off, at what number of pax does flying on one engine constitute a Mayday???
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Old 21st Sep 2005, 14:16
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My QRH says ..

CREW INCAPACITATION

PILOT NOT INCAPACITATED
Fly the aircraft.
Confirm incapacitation.
Make optimum use of the autopilot.
Declare an emergency to ATC.
Call the XXX or available crew member to the cockpit.

I guess if you didnt want to state "MADAY" on R/T you could resort to one of the other internationally accepted methods whilst flying single pilot ....

the Morse signal ... ... with visual apparatus or with sound apparatus;

a succession of pyrotechnical lights, fired at short intervals, each showing a single red light;

the two-flag signal corresponding to the letters NC of the International Code of Signals;

the distant signal, consisting of a square flag having, either above or below, a ball or anything resembling a ball;

a parachute flare showing a red light;

a gun or other explosive signal fired at intervals of approximately one minute.




As far as engine fire and failure goes, if I had a fire, it to would be a MADAY, if that fire "indicated" it was out I would think twice or four times about downgrading to a PAN. A failure, initially might call MADAY, then after some time considering performance etc, downgrading maybe the way to go, might even be able to get a relight and return.

As far as I am concerned, no problems with overstating the situation initially and changing the priority after further assessment/drills.
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Old 21st Sep 2005, 15:19
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Since when is a bog standard engine failure an emergency situation?
What is " a bog standard engine failure"? Contained or Uncontained?

Are you confusing an engine shut-down with an engine failure?
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Old 21st Sep 2005, 16:20
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Should I or shouldn`t I declare an emergency in case of either an eng. failure og crew incapacitation?

Apart from sounding cool, calm and collected on the radio (and when explaining the situation to colleagues on ground) I see absolutely no reason why I shouldn`t....

There are no prizes to be won in either case, so in my opinion, I will declare an emergency and think about the extra paperwork when I am safely on ground. I`d much rather declare an emergency that I shouldn`t have, than NOT declaring one that I SHOULD have..... I mean.... is there ANY reason NOT to??
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Old 21st Sep 2005, 17:51
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In the case of an engine failure or incapacitation; I would declare a MAYDAY at first. Once the situation has been contained, the checks done and a plan of action decided upon and advised to ATC, I would then consider downgrading the emergency to a PAN. The problem with a Mayday, apart from that mentioned in all of the above posts, is that not only does everything come to a halt at the airfield, the local hospitals are contacted and put on red alert. If the conditions at the diversion airfield are ok and there are no other mitigating factors, I would feel a PAN was more suitable.

Just my opinion.

GF
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Old 21st Sep 2005, 18:29
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Exclamation

FF
''Since when is a bog standard engine failure an emergency situation?
A mayday should only be issued if the people on the ground can assist you. Simple.
I cannot think why and how ATC / emergency services / Handling / your mother could help you if your engine is shut down because of low oil pressure!
Back to school for some of you guys I think.''

Spoken like a true 20 year old who has never been there and with the arrogance to boot!

You have obviously only had the luxury of flying around Western Europe where language isn't a problem. and there is a decent airport within gliding distance

You have a lot to learn
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