Mayday or not to mayday?
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It seems that most view the inflight PAN or MAYDAY to have an automatic connection to ground services. Where some of you operate that may well be the case. While anyone can declare a PAN or MAYDAY on behalf of someone else, down here it is the pilots' responsibility, if they have normal comms, to request what they require on arrival ie Local Standby or Full Emergency status.
What happens in the air is NOT necessarily relevant to what I need on the ground. Eg, if I have lost cabin pressure (no mechanical damage) and require an emergency descent I would need immediate assistance ie=MAYDAY. Once I was down to 10,000 feet and may still want to land ASAP I would down grade to a PAN, or cancel Mayday, but not necessarily need any added ground assistance. To view the air situation and the on ground requirements as two separate entities will provide the best outcome I believe -having had some recent experience (two shutdowns) in this area.
What happens in the air is NOT necessarily relevant to what I need on the ground. Eg, if I have lost cabin pressure (no mechanical damage) and require an emergency descent I would need immediate assistance ie=MAYDAY. Once I was down to 10,000 feet and may still want to land ASAP I would down grade to a PAN, or cancel Mayday, but not necessarily need any added ground assistance. To view the air situation and the on ground requirements as two separate entities will provide the best outcome I believe -having had some recent experience (two shutdowns) in this area.
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a Question.
You are inbound to a city airport in a twin and you shut one down. You decide not to declare "Mayday" or "Pan".
UK ATC can declare an emergency situation even if you don't, there are other people to consider and not just those on the aircraft.
I would ask that you consider both the wisdom and the legality of intentionally flying over a congested town or city on "one"......can you land in a field?
If an emergency is declared it allows ATC to bring into force an awesome range service provision.....traffic ahead will be moved....danger areas can be closed down and overflown.....certain restrictive route requirements can be circumvented.....preferential runways made available.....a discreet frequency with your own dedicated controller to offer every assistance [or valuable silence should you need it]....continuous co-ordination with and monitoring by military agencies with massive resources to call on.....and most importantly the protection for the pilot against a raft of possible infringements such as the example above.
If you do not declare an emergency there will be no preferential treatment at all.....NONE!
UK ATC can declare an emergency situation even if you don't, there are other people to consider and not just those on the aircraft.
I would ask that you consider both the wisdom and the legality of intentionally flying over a congested town or city on "one"......can you land in a field?
If an emergency is declared it allows ATC to bring into force an awesome range service provision.....traffic ahead will be moved....danger areas can be closed down and overflown.....certain restrictive route requirements can be circumvented.....preferential runways made available.....a discreet frequency with your own dedicated controller to offer every assistance [or valuable silence should you need it]....continuous co-ordination with and monitoring by military agencies with massive resources to call on.....and most importantly the protection for the pilot against a raft of possible infringements such as the example above.
If you do not declare an emergency there will be no preferential treatment at all.....NONE!
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MAYDAY MAYDAY
Engine stops-MADAY. Why did it stop? Why did I have to shut it down? What about the other one? Could it have a similar problem? MAYDAY. PAN is for when the hostess forgets my coffee.
Oh yes, I do have a big yellow streak.
Oh yes, I do have a big yellow streak.
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Why should the other engine have a similar problem?
I like what an old grizzled captain said to me years ago'
"If whatevers happened makes you nervous, declare a PAN. If it makes you **** yourself, declare a MAYDAY."
I like what an old grizzled captain said to me years ago'
"If whatevers happened makes you nervous, declare a PAN. If it makes you **** yourself, declare a MAYDAY."
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Fellas
I have migrated to this forum and have read with interest some of the points of view expressed by certain individuals.
I have to ask, what organisation is there set up in the UK to review the airmanship decisions of civvy airline operators. Surely, there is an organisation which acts as a standardising body?(If this is basic question i apologise, since i have only mil jet flying experience). However, i have to say that i am shocked by some of the increasingly poor decisions taken by SOME captains and FO's and can't believe that some of these decisions are allowed to go unpunished. Examples? Well i read with interest sometime ago about the crew who lost a donk on take off but decided to press to their destination, purely because that is where the companys servicing centre was established.
I don't want to tar everyone with the same brush, and am expecting a few rebuttles, but it just seems that more and more frequently, decisions are taken for financial rather than flight safety reasons.
(Digging in!!)
I have migrated to this forum and have read with interest some of the points of view expressed by certain individuals.
I have to ask, what organisation is there set up in the UK to review the airmanship decisions of civvy airline operators. Surely, there is an organisation which acts as a standardising body?(If this is basic question i apologise, since i have only mil jet flying experience). However, i have to say that i am shocked by some of the increasingly poor decisions taken by SOME captains and FO's and can't believe that some of these decisions are allowed to go unpunished. Examples? Well i read with interest sometime ago about the crew who lost a donk on take off but decided to press to their destination, purely because that is where the companys servicing centre was established.
I don't want to tar everyone with the same brush, and am expecting a few rebuttles, but it just seems that more and more frequently, decisions are taken for financial rather than flight safety reasons.
(Digging in!!)
Airbus)
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What a load of embarrassing tosh in this thread from supposed professional pilots. Also amazing how many 'IMHO' statements about things you should be able to quote.
ICAO Definitions of Emergency are (in our Ops Manual):
Mayday - a condition of being threatened be serious and/or imminent danger and of requiring immediate assistance.
Pan - a condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight, but which does not require immediate assistance.
Therefore the use of Mayday / Pan or neither is not based on the colour of the light that has come on, or the type of incapacitation etc. It is based on what assistance you require from the ground / RT agency etc. and more importantly, the level of immediacy with which you require that assistance.
With that in mind, I use the following guidelines:
ICAO Definitions of Emergency are (in our Ops Manual):
Mayday - a condition of being threatened be serious and/or imminent danger and of requiring immediate assistance.
Pan - a condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight, but which does not require immediate assistance.
Therefore the use of Mayday / Pan or neither is not based on the colour of the light that has come on, or the type of incapacitation etc. It is based on what assistance you require from the ground / RT agency etc. and more importantly, the level of immediacy with which you require that assistance.
With that in mind, I use the following guidelines:
- A Fire Indication might tend to a Mayday whilst a possibility exists of a non-standard immediate return to the airfield - this would need ATC to drop everything / divert everybody else out of your way. Assuming it is extinquished, then a downgrade to a Pan might be appropriate.
- A "bog standard" Engine Failure, where you are going to drone through 20 minutes of QRH/ECAM drills, DODAR, and only then decide where you are going to divert to, seems a Pan to me - no immediate assistance required.
- If you have a minor technical problem but one that means, say, you do not wish to hold, it might not be appropriate to make either call early on, get your ducks in order, make your plan, maybe even outline it to ATC - they have their own system of reactions. When you are ready, make the Pan call... If the situation is bad, or worsens, or ATC do not give you the level of assistance you require, upgrade to Mayday etc. (and v-v)
- Incapacitation - again, the level of assistance is important. If the guy has food poisoning, but you are continuing (destination within whatever time you deem suitable, the risks of setting up and planning a diversion over the planned approach single handed), then no call is probably best early on. As the arrival airfield nears, again, now declare a Pan as you need careful priority handling (which = [i]assistance[i/])
- Finally NB a Mayday must refer to your aircraft. A Pan call can relate to the crash on the motorway you have just seen...
A "bog standard" Engine Failure, where you are going to drone through 20 minutes of QRH/ECAM drills, DODAR, and only then decide where you are going to divert to, seems a Pan to me - no immediate assistance required.
LAND ASAP
I really had no idea that you oh-so-big boys flying oh-so-big jets need 20 mins to do your ECAM drills and only then decision making kicks in. I need to learn a lot more before I get upgraded. Hey, is this the way BA EFATO turned into transatlantic flight? Perhaps by the time the crew completed QRH drill, plane has owerflown the middle of Atlantic?
If the guy has food poisoning, but you are continuing
Once again: type and amount of airport emergency services that greet you on your arrival have nothing to do with pan or mayday, it's something you have requested or something that your ATCO has requested. And here comes the anectode: DHC-7 inbound south German airfield suffers engine failure. It's reported to ATC, but as destination is near, there's no pan or mayday and crew proceeds to destination. On final they notice a lot of ambulances waiting around the runway. Capt comments to F/O:"There's probably some bigger plane in trouble behind us, let's vacate as quick as we can". Landing goes uneventful and upon vacating capt asks ATC who are the ambulances waiting for. Answer: "You". Next question, coming in a bit puzzled tone, was: "Why so many?". ATCO replies: "Because each of your passengers might need an ambulance". While capt initially thought of it as overreaction, later he admitted that ATCO had a good point.
Moral of the story: if you need to have emergency, have it over Germany.
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Clandestino
Things between all types / airlines etc. are different!
ECAM Drills can take 5+ minutes to complete, when heavyweight, because of the long time to Aa, then the long time to accel and clean up, then start climbing again. In fact, they can take 10mins to get to the "clean and climbing stage"... after all, that is why most engines have a max power rating of 5 mins, but 10mins under single engine conditions. There are "drills", the second half of the ECAM drills in Airbus speak, that only take place once clean and climbing. I have done a sim ex, heavy hot and high where we were right on this 10min limit before clean and climbing.
99% of the time, on a single engine loss, yes, you're going back to departure a/f. However, the current CRM luvvies, probably quite correctly, have this "DODAR" prinicple, where once the drills are complete (might be over 10 mins as I have shown above), only now do you ensure the diagnosis is correct (Kegworth lesson), assess the Options, and make the "Decision". This might be 15mins... in extremis. "A" = Assign Tasks, and one of these is to liaise with the Cabin Crew.
Sim Instructors assure me that at this stage most crews tell the Cabin Crew "we will be landing in under 10mins", but in fact, it is over 15, and sometimes 20, before it actually happens.
Please read what I said. This relates to an actual incident from Africa. Quite a few Crew (Cabin Crew included) went down with food poisoning - I do not need to go into details, and in fact I do not know them all. 3 Flight Crew, and it was assessed the Captain was unfit to resume duties. However, this came about towards the end of a 10 hour sector, and my point was although airfield X was theoretically closer, the lack of urgency illness wise (they were not going to die), and the familarity with destination (home base) meant it was safer for all to continue to destination. However, assistance from ATC required for handling etc. so PAN appropriate (IMHO) and used.
NoD
Things between all types / airlines etc. are different!
ECAM Drills can take 5+ minutes to complete, when heavyweight, because of the long time to Aa, then the long time to accel and clean up, then start climbing again. In fact, they can take 10mins to get to the "clean and climbing stage"... after all, that is why most engines have a max power rating of 5 mins, but 10mins under single engine conditions. There are "drills", the second half of the ECAM drills in Airbus speak, that only take place once clean and climbing. I have done a sim ex, heavy hot and high where we were right on this 10min limit before clean and climbing.
99% of the time, on a single engine loss, yes, you're going back to departure a/f. However, the current CRM luvvies, probably quite correctly, have this "DODAR" prinicple, where once the drills are complete (might be over 10 mins as I have shown above), only now do you ensure the diagnosis is correct (Kegworth lesson), assess the Options, and make the "Decision". This might be 15mins... in extremis. "A" = Assign Tasks, and one of these is to liaise with the Cabin Crew.
Sim Instructors assure me that at this stage most crews tell the Cabin Crew "we will be landing in under 10mins", but in fact, it is over 15, and sometimes 20, before it actually happens.
If the guy survives food poisoning, recovers and finds out that his other CM proceedeed to destination
NoD
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I may divert depending on etc etc
Flt Ops Mgr:"So fiona, when you were reading the QRH Engine Fail/Shutdown checklist, which part of "Land at the nearest suitable airport" did you have difficulty with?"
Fiona: "What's a QRH?"
Or judging by your previous posts you were probably on one of your 10 sickies a month during Engine Failure 101....
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mayday
Am I missing something?
Scenario- number one engine rundown at V1. You bin the SID, and follow the emergency turn.
Do you think ATC may be curious why you aren't going where they said you should go? If they ask, will you say-'oh it's nothing, just a bog standard number one engine run down'
Scenario- number one engine oil pressure low. a bog standard Shutdown at FL370/410. FMC page says you will ba able FL235 or so.
ATC may want to know why you are descending. Will you do this straight ahead on Airways? Will TCAS be a factor. Without the MAYDAY, will ATC require you to maintain assigned level?
There is no such thing as a bog standard engine rundown, or shutdown due oil pressure. Except in the sim every 6 months.
The MAYDAY will do lots of things. ATC will know there is the potential for an incident. You fellow pilots around you will know there is soemthing going on that may interact with them. All useless banter/requests for short cuts will cease. You will get assistance of some sort. varying depending on where you are granted.
I think maybe you missed something FF
Scenario- number one engine rundown at V1. You bin the SID, and follow the emergency turn.
Do you think ATC may be curious why you aren't going where they said you should go? If they ask, will you say-'oh it's nothing, just a bog standard number one engine run down'
Scenario- number one engine oil pressure low. a bog standard Shutdown at FL370/410. FMC page says you will ba able FL235 or so.
ATC may want to know why you are descending. Will you do this straight ahead on Airways? Will TCAS be a factor. Without the MAYDAY, will ATC require you to maintain assigned level?
There is no such thing as a bog standard engine rundown, or shutdown due oil pressure. Except in the sim every 6 months.
The MAYDAY will do lots of things. ATC will know there is the potential for an incident. You fellow pilots around you will know there is soemthing going on that may interact with them. All useless banter/requests for short cuts will cease. You will get assistance of some sort. varying depending on where you are granted.
I think maybe you missed something FF
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Mayday.
Commercial pilots/ATPL will almost always call mayday upon an engine out/major system fault which requires that aircraft to be on the ground in a short space of time.
Whenever you fly with pax it is better to err on the side of safety than, as has happened, start long lists of checks and only call pan pan pan.
Airlines have crashed otherwise survivable emergencies due to pilots being too relexed. Smoke in the cockpit, pan or mayday. Engine out pan or mayday. No question - mayday.
You are flying people, alot of people, who are happy for you to land ASAP if there is a serious fault. Pilot judgement is always required. The more people you are flying the more ready and willing you should be to call mayday. No airline will ever be seen in a bad light for landing an aircraft that was, as judged by the PIC, not able to continue the flight safely, reguardless of what it is that is the cause of the safety concern for the PIC.
"bog standard" Engine Failure, where you are going to drone through 20 minutes of QRH/ECAM drills, DODAR, and only then decide where you are going to divert to, seems a Pan to me - no immediate assistance required.
"bog standard" what? I do not know which airline, if any, you fly for but an engine failure requires immediate assistance, you have just lost half your power on most aircraft. Your going to sit there and start a 20min check list?? My god man, you do know that an engine shut down results in other aircraft systems being reduced.
You NEED to land, not order a cup tea and start 20 mins of checks. QRH stands for Quick reference handbook, note the quick!! You have lost an engine. Others need to know about this and fast - ATC, other aircraft, your cabin crew. Not 20 mins later!
Incapacitation - again, the level of assistance is important. If the guy has food poisoning, but you are continuing (destination within whatever time you deem suitable, the risks of setting up and planning a diversion over the planned approach single handed), then no call is probably best early on. As the arrival airfield nears, again, now declare a Pan as you need careful priority handling.
If I as PIC got food poisoning and woke up to find my first officer flying on to our destination, I would not be pleased. The reason is based on safety. Two crew is the minimum, when it is down to one you land the plane. Why you need to land, because you are the only pilot, something goes wrong with you and its all over. You land the plane ASAP, call pan pan pan and advise you require a direct in approach to nearest suitable airport. "but you are continuing" No you are not.
Whenever you fly with pax it is better to err on the side of safety than, as has happened, start long lists of checks and only call pan pan pan.
Airlines have crashed otherwise survivable emergencies due to pilots being too relexed. Smoke in the cockpit, pan or mayday. Engine out pan or mayday. No question - mayday.
You are flying people, alot of people, who are happy for you to land ASAP if there is a serious fault. Pilot judgement is always required. The more people you are flying the more ready and willing you should be to call mayday. No airline will ever be seen in a bad light for landing an aircraft that was, as judged by the PIC, not able to continue the flight safely, reguardless of what it is that is the cause of the safety concern for the PIC.
"bog standard" Engine Failure, where you are going to drone through 20 minutes of QRH/ECAM drills, DODAR, and only then decide where you are going to divert to, seems a Pan to me - no immediate assistance required.
"bog standard" what? I do not know which airline, if any, you fly for but an engine failure requires immediate assistance, you have just lost half your power on most aircraft. Your going to sit there and start a 20min check list?? My god man, you do know that an engine shut down results in other aircraft systems being reduced.
You NEED to land, not order a cup tea and start 20 mins of checks. QRH stands for Quick reference handbook, note the quick!! You have lost an engine. Others need to know about this and fast - ATC, other aircraft, your cabin crew. Not 20 mins later!
Incapacitation - again, the level of assistance is important. If the guy has food poisoning, but you are continuing (destination within whatever time you deem suitable, the risks of setting up and planning a diversion over the planned approach single handed), then no call is probably best early on. As the arrival airfield nears, again, now declare a Pan as you need careful priority handling.
If I as PIC got food poisoning and woke up to find my first officer flying on to our destination, I would not be pleased. The reason is based on safety. Two crew is the minimum, when it is down to one you land the plane. Why you need to land, because you are the only pilot, something goes wrong with you and its all over. You land the plane ASAP, call pan pan pan and advise you require a direct in approach to nearest suitable airport. "but you are continuing" No you are not.
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On the subject of incapacitation. Without full expert knowledge of whats happening, most of what happens to the other guy may also be about to happen to you.
I have had food poisoning from catering. This happened on the same day as my capitan also came down with food poisoning. We ate different food from different catering packs, but supplied by the same caterer. He told me he wasn't feeling too perky, I continued as PF. The flight was only 45minutes in total. about 20minutes in.
About an hour after on-chocks, he was almost totally incapacitated. About 2 hours after that, so was I. We ended up stuck in a hotel for two days too sick to move.
The subtle nature of this type of incapacitation is often spoken about in CRM courses. The reallity is quite sobering. If the flight had been longer, remote or whatever, the situation might have become serious.
We didn't declare a pan or a mayday. At the time it was not 'needed'. If things had developed more quickly for him, I hope I would have put out a Pan at least.
I have had food poisoning from catering. This happened on the same day as my capitan also came down with food poisoning. We ate different food from different catering packs, but supplied by the same caterer. He told me he wasn't feeling too perky, I continued as PF. The flight was only 45minutes in total. about 20minutes in.
About an hour after on-chocks, he was almost totally incapacitated. About 2 hours after that, so was I. We ended up stuck in a hotel for two days too sick to move.
The subtle nature of this type of incapacitation is often spoken about in CRM courses. The reallity is quite sobering. If the flight had been longer, remote or whatever, the situation might have become serious.
We didn't declare a pan or a mayday. At the time it was not 'needed'. If things had developed more quickly for him, I hope I would have put out a Pan at least.
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738C
Maybe you could re-read my post...
Quite agree, so if you actually read my post, you will see the incident clearly refers to a 3 crew flight...
I never even suggested that at any point the P1 was unconcious etc.
No idea what you are on about - I never suggested saying nothing for 20mins. But if everything is "under control", then a Pan is what I would use, and actively taught as such in my airline. In fact, the first call would be "C/S, Pan x 3, Engine Failure, STANDBY" since the "assistance" I require, and the only assistance someone in a tower can offer me, is to keep quiet and not hassle me
With reference to the 20mins of checks, I made the point that aircraft performance can mean that you cannot even start finalising the QRH (ECAM) actions for over 10mins from point of failure.
Let us just consider how many aircraft have been lost for "rushed drills" compared to those lost because the drills were too protracted, and/or a second failure came along.
Maybe you could re-read my post...
Two crew is the minimum, when it is down to one you land the plane
If I as PIC got food poisoning and woke up to find my first officer flying on to our destination
You NEED to land, not order a cup tea and start 20 mins of checks. QRH stands for Quick reference handbook, note the quick!! You have lost an engine. Others need to know about this and fast - ATC, other aircraft, your cabin crew. Not 20 mins later!
With reference to the 20mins of checks, I made the point that aircraft performance can mean that you cannot even start finalising the QRH (ECAM) actions for over 10mins from point of failure.
Let us just consider how many aircraft have been lost for "rushed drills" compared to those lost because the drills were too protracted, and/or a second failure came along.
I'm not advocating rushing when you hit ASAP in your checklist but don't vaste your time! Even on ATR sometimes you can climb 7-8 mins to accel. altitude during engine-out climb, but you won't see me proceeding enroute with one engine knocked-out (unless I have to go to take-off alternate). If I need 20-30 mins to complete the drills, I'll spend them in holding from which I can proceed to approach in a very short time.
Considering how many A/C have been lost due to "rushed drills" I can remember none except BMI at Kegworth (I'm sure there were more, I just have no recollection of them). On the other side there were not that much A/Cs that went down as result of "protracted drills" either; United DC-8 at Portland, Saudi 1011 at Riyadh... but if we count checklists that were never started when theye were needed as "protracted drills", number rises steeply.
Considering how many A/C have been lost due to "rushed drills" I can remember none except BMI at Kegworth (I'm sure there were more, I just have no recollection of them). On the other side there were not that much A/Cs that went down as result of "protracted drills" either; United DC-8 at Portland, Saudi 1011 at Riyadh... but if we count checklists that were never started when theye were needed as "protracted drills", number rises steeply.
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A scenario to consider which I don't think has come up so far:
Engine shutdown in a 2 or more engined A/C or pilot incapacitation with no further complications in either case and pilot issues MAYDAY.
1 minute after MAYDAY issue another A/C in the vicinity reports uncontainable flight deck fire and wishes to divert to same airport. A/C 1 as I understand it has priority as it issued MAYDAY first, unless maybe ATC negotiates a downgrade to PAN (which would take time at the very least).
Wouldn't want to be a PAX or crew in that 2nd A/C the day this happens.
Engine shutdown in a 2 or more engined A/C or pilot incapacitation with no further complications in either case and pilot issues MAYDAY.
1 minute after MAYDAY issue another A/C in the vicinity reports uncontainable flight deck fire and wishes to divert to same airport. A/C 1 as I understand it has priority as it issued MAYDAY first, unless maybe ATC negotiates a downgrade to PAN (which would take time at the very least).
Wouldn't want to be a PAX or crew in that 2nd A/C the day this happens.