Italian ATC the absolute pits
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There is the overwhelming desire to get home after a trip
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Oh Italy has ATC Units???
wow!!
I am flying a lot of my time in Italy and I truley have to say that Italian ATC is one of the worst. Flying parrallel approaches on FCO 16/L + R and all you hear are clearances in Italian language.The controller is transmitting stress to aircrews by giving clearances...if you are lucky you understand some italian. Appart from the fact that most italian crews unfortunately transmit regardless they are blocking a transmission in progress or not it seems there is some room to improve safety.
I am flying a lot of my time in Italy and I truley have to say that Italian ATC is one of the worst. Flying parrallel approaches on FCO 16/L + R and all you hear are clearances in Italian language.The controller is transmitting stress to aircrews by giving clearances...if you are lucky you understand some italian. Appart from the fact that most italian crews unfortunately transmit regardless they are blocking a transmission in progress or not it seems there is some room to improve safety.
Last edited by 4legsaday; 18th Oct 2005 at 23:43.
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Good God.
This may seem a bit silly to ask but would it be wise for a PPL to avoid going to Italy? Its been a long held ambition of mine to fly down to italy and back via spain whenever I have (first the license) and the time/cash. Are the Italians really that crap and if so does their incompetance apply to the GA level? It would be a bit disconcerting to have sh1t ATC on such a trip.
This may seem a bit silly to ask but would it be wise for a PPL to avoid going to Italy? Its been a long held ambition of mine to fly down to italy and back via spain whenever I have (first the license) and the time/cash. Are the Italians really that crap and if so does their incompetance apply to the GA level? It would be a bit disconcerting to have sh1t ATC on such a trip.
Wingman863,
Have never flown GA down in Italy, but reckon that if you avoid FCO and CIA you will have few problems. Most other airfields are relatively quiet, and as long as you keep a very good lookout you should be fine.
Have never flown GA down in Italy, but reckon that if you avoid FCO and CIA you will have few problems. Most other airfields are relatively quiet, and as long as you keep a very good lookout you should be fine.
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And like greece they are fully JAR compliant. Makes you wonder then if the atc is so bad , just how wide open is the back door to a jar atpl. Corruption is a culture not a coincidence.
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Fresh experiences from MXP yesterday.
Rocked up to a/c for first flight. Dark and cold, GPU not working and APU tagged as US. Solution to this problem?.....Engineer yanks tagged CB collar off pulled APU control CB and lights up the APU then scarpers off as its the end of his shift.........leaving open entry in tech log and dumbfounded crew. No discussion with flight deck possible as "he does not speak English very well."
Tight on slot and no pax when Dispatch assistant arrives waving hands in animated fashion trying to explain something about the passengers. None of crew able to understand him. He departs and comes back with a mobile phone from dispatch office with someone on the other end explaining that the security belt has broken and we are to be delayed in getting pax.
ATIS radiating completely wrong info about active runway in use......17 instead of 35.
Delivery hassling us to get moving as pax arrive........
Clearance involving tricky transition completely changed as we approach threshold of runway.
Line up slowly with fingers still punching the FMS for the new departure (wrong!!!!) to be advised that landing traffic at four miles.
taken in isolation no particular one item is going to kill anybody..........at least the APU did not explode.....no thanks to the idiot who I presume was an engineer.
BUT collectively this snapshot of a typical Italian experience is pretty much what one comes to expect every time. (I forgot to mention on arrival had clearance to point not on STAR to self position on the ILS for landing runway.)
I am still awaiting contact from an interested journo.......then again maybe someone has got to die first before it makes good copy.
Rocked up to a/c for first flight. Dark and cold, GPU not working and APU tagged as US. Solution to this problem?.....Engineer yanks tagged CB collar off pulled APU control CB and lights up the APU then scarpers off as its the end of his shift.........leaving open entry in tech log and dumbfounded crew. No discussion with flight deck possible as "he does not speak English very well."
Tight on slot and no pax when Dispatch assistant arrives waving hands in animated fashion trying to explain something about the passengers. None of crew able to understand him. He departs and comes back with a mobile phone from dispatch office with someone on the other end explaining that the security belt has broken and we are to be delayed in getting pax.
ATIS radiating completely wrong info about active runway in use......17 instead of 35.
Delivery hassling us to get moving as pax arrive........
Clearance involving tricky transition completely changed as we approach threshold of runway.
Line up slowly with fingers still punching the FMS for the new departure (wrong!!!!) to be advised that landing traffic at four miles.
taken in isolation no particular one item is going to kill anybody..........at least the APU did not explode.....no thanks to the idiot who I presume was an engineer.
BUT collectively this snapshot of a typical Italian experience is pretty much what one comes to expect every time. (I forgot to mention on arrival had clearance to point not on STAR to self position on the ILS for landing runway.)
I am still awaiting contact from an interested journo.......then again maybe someone has got to die first before it makes good copy.
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Can't you just file an incident report on the controller that gave you a faulty clearance, just as they file reports on us when we bust an altitude.
If Italian ATC really are as bad as you all state (have not flown there and hopefully never will), and if every pilot experiencing problems while in the hands of ATC, file complaints and reports and whatnot, wouldn't that be a way to go forward with this issue?
I guess pilots have something against paperwork and especially filing reports, but for once it could be filing because someone elese botched your job, instead of you doing something wrong. Come on, lets start using the system... Afterall, that's what it's there for, facilitating for aviation in safety, flow controll and efficiency matters. I reccon the Italian ATC hinders all those factors (I still haven't flown there...)...
/LnS
*dont forget the vicitms of the SAS accident at linate, all because of the unproffessional and unduly relaxed attitude of not only the controllers but also the whole Italian CAA*
If Italian ATC really are as bad as you all state (have not flown there and hopefully never will), and if every pilot experiencing problems while in the hands of ATC, file complaints and reports and whatnot, wouldn't that be a way to go forward with this issue?
I guess pilots have something against paperwork and especially filing reports, but for once it could be filing because someone elese botched your job, instead of you doing something wrong. Come on, lets start using the system... Afterall, that's what it's there for, facilitating for aviation in safety, flow controll and efficiency matters. I reccon the Italian ATC hinders all those factors (I still haven't flown there...)...
/LnS
*dont forget the vicitms of the SAS accident at linate, all because of the unproffessional and unduly relaxed attitude of not only the controllers but also the whole Italian CAA*
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not wrong clearance, just different....
In Rome we have a policy NOT to enter the departure transition in the FMS until the last moment. The reason for the problem is that the CIA tower are not 100% aware of the actual status at FCO, and as CIA takes 2nd position, then the actual clearance is often different.
I would suggest, and have done this in the past, use INDEPENDANT TRANSFER, on FMS's and set the two CIA transitions, one on each. The send the correct transition to the other FMS.
Re the rushed TO clearance, just say NO. With the response that" It will take me a few minutes to reload the revised departure clearance". It will make no difference, but at least you are on record.
Once in CIA, we actually attempted to line up for take off, without even "starting" the taxi checks..ie flaps zero....... but as they say that is another story.
Wingman: just go and have fun, and yes avoid the big boys toys.
Greek ATC: they would ask you your DME from a station that you had no desire to route to or from, and so had to dig out the chart, and tune your one DME to it, and then try to get the answer back to them....they were the butt of all english atc jokes.
Now I find them very very efficient., I think the Watchman radar was the solution ... Comments.???
Bumz
I would suggest, and have done this in the past, use INDEPENDANT TRANSFER, on FMS's and set the two CIA transitions, one on each. The send the correct transition to the other FMS.
Re the rushed TO clearance, just say NO. With the response that" It will take me a few minutes to reload the revised departure clearance". It will make no difference, but at least you are on record.
Once in CIA, we actually attempted to line up for take off, without even "starting" the taxi checks..ie flaps zero....... but as they say that is another story.
Wingman: just go and have fun, and yes avoid the big boys toys.
Greek ATC: they would ask you your DME from a station that you had no desire to route to or from, and so had to dig out the chart, and tune your one DME to it, and then try to get the answer back to them....they were the butt of all english atc jokes.
Now I find them very very efficient., I think the Watchman radar was the solution ... Comments.???
Bumz
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Greek ATC: they would ask you your DME from a station that you had no desire to route to or from, and so had to dig out the chart, and tune your one DME to it, and then try to get the answer back to them....they were the butt of all english atc jokes.
Given the traffic levels, the fact that not even the frequencies worked properly, and that they applied procedural en-route control until approximately 1995 it is a miracle that no serious accident happend.
In general it is not so much the controller's fault but that of the Greek CAA and the politicians.
If you ever wondered why you have to ident or confirm your squawk when transferred eg to Heraklion APP it is because the appoach radar and computer system is not compatible with the ACC system in Athens..... you can perhaps imagine how the decision to buy non-compatible systems was taken............
Also controllers have a hard time obtaining new and more reasonable STARs and SIDs from the CAA in Athens.... sometimes they have to wait and insist for years........
Now I find them very very efficient., I think the Watchman radar was the solution ... Comments.???
It seems that they will at least get a radar image from the en-route radars this year......
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Hi guys,
as an italian pilot i can gladly tell you that i am very pleased to read all this..no i am not a masochist...the thing is that there have been a few threads on the italian forum about the ATC issue with the participation of a couple of ATCO's.
I could join you with very many scary stories about italian ATC but that woud probably mean publishing a book...
The one thing i would like to point out is that we need ASR's from you foreigners who fly in here because (and this is also quite scary) those i have written myself have disappeared since i have never got an answer from the authorities nor from my own airline.
Italy doesn't even have an official "anonimous reporting system" and apparently controllers don't undergo recurrent trainings to ICAO/JAA standards!!
I can give you a couple of links related to italian ATC and their unions,copy and paste all this to them (let's hope they are able to read and understand english...) and most importantly start writing what happens to you in our skyes and airports because concern coming from abroad is the only way for someone to start doing something.
links: www.anpcat.org www.licta.it www.traffico-aereo.it
as an italian pilot i can gladly tell you that i am very pleased to read all this..no i am not a masochist...the thing is that there have been a few threads on the italian forum about the ATC issue with the participation of a couple of ATCO's.
I could join you with very many scary stories about italian ATC but that woud probably mean publishing a book...
The one thing i would like to point out is that we need ASR's from you foreigners who fly in here because (and this is also quite scary) those i have written myself have disappeared since i have never got an answer from the authorities nor from my own airline.
Italy doesn't even have an official "anonimous reporting system" and apparently controllers don't undergo recurrent trainings to ICAO/JAA standards!!
I can give you a couple of links related to italian ATC and their unions,copy and paste all this to them (let's hope they are able to read and understand english...) and most importantly start writing what happens to you in our skyes and airports because concern coming from abroad is the only way for someone to start doing something.
links: www.anpcat.org www.licta.it www.traffico-aereo.it
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approach roma fuimicino
another nice story from italy:
approach to fuimicino on the left parallel runway. i forgot the runway number since i was there only once.
we reported fully established as the tower atc guy gave us a swingover to the right hand parallel runway. at 3 miles dme of the ils. it worked but it was pretty narrow.
approach to fuimicino on the left parallel runway. i forgot the runway number since i was there only once.
we reported fully established as the tower atc guy gave us a swingover to the right hand parallel runway. at 3 miles dme of the ils. it worked but it was pretty narrow.
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I thought it was just me with the problem understanding some of the controllers in Italy until I flew there with an Italian and he could not understand anything one controller said in English and had trouble wih others. He eventually had to resort to Italian to find out exactly what it was a Padua area controller was trying to tell us. It sounded like the guy was half asleep chewing gum with his head in a bucket while his entire family held a party around him.
I am a PPL based in Italy. Everything in my area is based on personal contacts, and my Italian is not too bad. Meeting the SATCO of my nearest regional airport has made things a lot better. In my experience, it is not lazyness, it is lack of proper training. There is definitely the will to do things properly, unlike other European countries.
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I dare to suggest that the Italian attitude to ATC so lethally exposed on this forum is reflective of an attitude of culture which in many less demanding environments is quaintly appealing and a reason why so many peple love the Italian way.
By its nature the culture is anti authoritarian and accepts corruption as part of a way of life. Overall there is a laid back approach generally to just about everything.
Just recently I was driving up a main toll road with a series of pay booths ahead. Only when you had actualy stopped with a queue of traffic behind you at the booth was there any indication of the toll you had to pay and only exact change was a accepted. Any other european road would have advertised exactly the toll long before the mad panic to find the exact change at the booth. Suprise surprise, all of a sudden the delay becomes critical and Luigi and Guiseppe et al all discover their horn buttons!!!!
Then, joy of joys, returning the hire car at Milan. No where, I mean no where was there any indication of which terminal hire cars should be returned to. Result, driving round in circles and nearly being late .
Against this background it is not hard to understand that these controllers attach no more sense of urgency or importance to the quality of service they provide, especially when by the revelation on this forum, their controlling authorities do not subscribe to same standards as the rest of Europe.
Make no mistake about it, the service we get in Italy is as bad as in any third world country and in many respects worse. In the case of Italy there are no excuses.
By its nature the culture is anti authoritarian and accepts corruption as part of a way of life. Overall there is a laid back approach generally to just about everything.
Just recently I was driving up a main toll road with a series of pay booths ahead. Only when you had actualy stopped with a queue of traffic behind you at the booth was there any indication of the toll you had to pay and only exact change was a accepted. Any other european road would have advertised exactly the toll long before the mad panic to find the exact change at the booth. Suprise surprise, all of a sudden the delay becomes critical and Luigi and Guiseppe et al all discover their horn buttons!!!!
Then, joy of joys, returning the hire car at Milan. No where, I mean no where was there any indication of which terminal hire cars should be returned to. Result, driving round in circles and nearly being late .
Against this background it is not hard to understand that these controllers attach no more sense of urgency or importance to the quality of service they provide, especially when by the revelation on this forum, their controlling authorities do not subscribe to same standards as the rest of Europe.
Make no mistake about it, the service we get in Italy is as bad as in any third world country and in many respects worse. In the case of Italy there are no excuses.
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Well, guys.. I won't get too deep in here, because the issue would deserve better analysis than simple writing..
I agree with you on most facts, that's it. I'm strongly yearning to cooperate with something different than an Italian airline, for the same uneasy feeling I get from these habits you were addressing.
But still, a guy from Timbucktoo spewing about Italian motorways sounds like petty minded (and off-topic).
I'm with you guys all along the line, but please refrain from falling under the usual stereotypes: if you want to get something out of this Italian cauldron, my own piece of advice is to avoid crashing against the wall with your face up front. Maybe we can standardize the whole world; but we will still need to adapt some habits of ours in the places we travel.
I agree there's still a long way to go.. But you know, we've never ever actually been a Country like England is. And we've got very nice climate. Populations growing with good climates will always lack organization skills: this is the case. My score for Italy is, I really believe there is some awesome work-power here, and deep cleverness in some cases. We only miss an organizing and organized structure an Englishman could make up easily.
OK, it's only 10% of what I would like to share, but anyway..
I agree with you on most facts, that's it. I'm strongly yearning to cooperate with something different than an Italian airline, for the same uneasy feeling I get from these habits you were addressing.
But still, a guy from Timbucktoo spewing about Italian motorways sounds like petty minded (and off-topic).
I'm with you guys all along the line, but please refrain from falling under the usual stereotypes: if you want to get something out of this Italian cauldron, my own piece of advice is to avoid crashing against the wall with your face up front. Maybe we can standardize the whole world; but we will still need to adapt some habits of ours in the places we travel.
I agree there's still a long way to go.. But you know, we've never ever actually been a Country like England is. And we've got very nice climate. Populations growing with good climates will always lack organization skills: this is the case. My score for Italy is, I really believe there is some awesome work-power here, and deep cleverness in some cases. We only miss an organizing and organized structure an Englishman could make up easily.
OK, it's only 10% of what I would like to share, but anyway..
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Gufo (Ciao),
No organization works without (self)discipline. Most Italians do not comprehend the meaning of the word. That is why the world likes them: they are like kids, but lethal in aviation.
No organization works without (self)discipline. Most Italians do not comprehend the meaning of the word. That is why the world likes them: they are like kids, but lethal in aviation.
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Not quite right - it seems like they communicate very well with their own, and are fairly disciplined when flying abroad. (Which flag carrier/major airline has only had one fatal accident in its history?) Maybe it's us who don't understand the mechanics of Italian mentality. (Somewhat goes for France too. Charming, but trying (one feels a bit left out) i.e "when in Rome, do as etc". When it comes to ATC it is not very charming, but nevertheless typical. It’s impossible to change somebody elses culture.
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It's not about culture my friend;it's about professionalism, nothing to be invented nor changed...just apply the existing rules.
By the way, file reports guys because i found out they take foreign ASR's more seriously.
By the way, file reports guys because i found out they take foreign ASR's more seriously.