Those damned pedantic idiot captains
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Those damned pedantic idiot captains
They are in every airline I know but they give me the screaming heebeejeebees\ when I hear the same old stories.
Example: First officer correctly decides to use speed brake during a 737 descent. Keeps hand on the speed brake lever in accordance with company SOP even though it means stretching across throttles and in any case it's uncomfortable. Autopilot is engaged as per SOP. PF operates autopilot as per SOP. ATC give a heading change, so F/O momentarily relinquishes his left hand from the speed brake lever in order to select new heading on MCP hdg selector knob.
Pedantic idiot in LH seat immediately reprimands F/O for breaking company SOP because the poor bastard took his hand off the S/B lever for 3-5 seconds at the most. Pedantic LH seat idiot says F/O should have kept his left hand on S/B lever and adjusted hdg selector with right hand. What utter unadulterated tosh!
Reminded me of when I first got in a 737 simulator in another lifetime and thought Man - this is for real. What a lucky chap I am for soon flying a 737. It was an old -200 with old instruments.
I adjusted my seat and leaned over to move the HSI course knob situated (I think) on left bottom corner of the instrument. A blast of hot air hit the back of my neck from the old pedantic check pilot crouched menacingly in the jump seat as he yelled in purple faced anger: "You use your left hand for the course knob and the right hand for the heading knob." I thought to myself "Do I really want to be an airline pilot if I have to put up with these old fools?" Yet thousands of F/O's get this treatment every day somewhere in the world.
Or yet another occasion when the rate of climb was phenomenal and I called out "Approaching 1000 to go". The LH seat pedantic calmly corrected me in a gentle sarcastic tone saying "the call is 1000 to go, NOT approaching 1000 to go." He completely missed the point that such was the rate of climb at the time, that the chimes would have sounded before I could have completed the support call - the chimes being the back-up to the support call - not the initiator.
I have nothing but the greatest sympathy for First Officers forced to button their lips and accept this crap from idiots in the LH seat.
Example: First officer correctly decides to use speed brake during a 737 descent. Keeps hand on the speed brake lever in accordance with company SOP even though it means stretching across throttles and in any case it's uncomfortable. Autopilot is engaged as per SOP. PF operates autopilot as per SOP. ATC give a heading change, so F/O momentarily relinquishes his left hand from the speed brake lever in order to select new heading on MCP hdg selector knob.
Pedantic idiot in LH seat immediately reprimands F/O for breaking company SOP because the poor bastard took his hand off the S/B lever for 3-5 seconds at the most. Pedantic LH seat idiot says F/O should have kept his left hand on S/B lever and adjusted hdg selector with right hand. What utter unadulterated tosh!
Reminded me of when I first got in a 737 simulator in another lifetime and thought Man - this is for real. What a lucky chap I am for soon flying a 737. It was an old -200 with old instruments.
I adjusted my seat and leaned over to move the HSI course knob situated (I think) on left bottom corner of the instrument. A blast of hot air hit the back of my neck from the old pedantic check pilot crouched menacingly in the jump seat as he yelled in purple faced anger: "You use your left hand for the course knob and the right hand for the heading knob." I thought to myself "Do I really want to be an airline pilot if I have to put up with these old fools?" Yet thousands of F/O's get this treatment every day somewhere in the world.
Or yet another occasion when the rate of climb was phenomenal and I called out "Approaching 1000 to go". The LH seat pedantic calmly corrected me in a gentle sarcastic tone saying "the call is 1000 to go, NOT approaching 1000 to go." He completely missed the point that such was the rate of climb at the time, that the chimes would have sounded before I could have completed the support call - the chimes being the back-up to the support call - not the initiator.
I have nothing but the greatest sympathy for First Officers forced to button their lips and accept this crap from idiots in the LH seat.
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I know what you are saying! There is nothing worse than being criticized about a landing in extreme conditions only to watch the captain do an even worse job on the next sector knowing it would be bad CRM to make any comments!
My biggest irritation is being trained one way by the training captains and then have a line captain tell me I am doing things wrong! It becomes so confusing and leaves you in a very difficult position.
Still, its all good fun!
My biggest irritation is being trained one way by the training captains and then have a line captain tell me I am doing things wrong! It becomes so confusing and leaves you in a very difficult position.
Still, its all good fun!
Technically if you deviate from SOP's you're in the wrong......however, as a good line training captain once told me, if you can always adequately justify a deviation to the other crew member then there shouldn't be an issue........
I don't think anyone could argue that any one companies set of SOP's is completely flawless?!
I don't think anyone could argue that any one companies set of SOP's is completely flawless?!
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With I-Ford on this one. When you get the left seat guys you will realise some of your FOs can be pedantic point-scoring pain in the ar***s as well! Every one needs treated differently. Some will bore you to tears with techno-discussion and exhaust you with questions, others are great company and good fun but dreadful pilots. Some are over-confident, resistant to advice and consequently downright dangerous since pride gets in the way.
Don't think it's an easier life in the left seat!
Merry Xmas to you all, and I hope you don't get crusty captains in 2005!
Don't think it's an easier life in the left seat!
Merry Xmas to you all, and I hope you don't get crusty captains in 2005!
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Of course there are pedantic F/O's aswell, which in connection with a weak capt. can be very dangerous. But an interesting question would be. 'Can we change these CLOWNS. These guys are one of the main reasons for the CRM courses of today (please no discussion about the definition of it in this thread), but learn NOTHING from it. CRM is of course also very usefull for the, lets say, normal crews.
Even the 'one man show' captain, with few years to go before his pension is normally very pleasant and safe to work with (although he is not giving the perfect example).
No I mean the kind of captain who comes in 15 minutes late, starts to smoke in my face, does nothing of the paperwork and then THROWS it like trash on the table saying that the alternate is wrong (which is not true). When you disagree with him, at a certain moment you have to back off because otherwise it eskalates. Or after his usual 'ballooning smack on the deck', during my approach he is continuously touching and moving the thrustleavers saying there is windshear (which is complete bull), then during the flare again
interfering. With the remark after landing, of course during rollout, I otherwise would have flown it into the ground. I know this guy is a zero, so I won't sleep any less. But If you tell this in the office, they say they know it. Result of course 'nada'.
People like this should be sacked on the spot.
Even the 'one man show' captain, with few years to go before his pension is normally very pleasant and safe to work with (although he is not giving the perfect example).
No I mean the kind of captain who comes in 15 minutes late, starts to smoke in my face, does nothing of the paperwork and then THROWS it like trash on the table saying that the alternate is wrong (which is not true). When you disagree with him, at a certain moment you have to back off because otherwise it eskalates. Or after his usual 'ballooning smack on the deck', during my approach he is continuously touching and moving the thrustleavers saying there is windshear (which is complete bull), then during the flare again
interfering. With the remark after landing, of course during rollout, I otherwise would have flown it into the ground. I know this guy is a zero, so I won't sleep any less. But If you tell this in the office, they say they know it. Result of course 'nada'.
People like this should be sacked on the spot.
Last edited by Alaskan Timber; 13th Jan 2005 at 11:11.
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Well of course none of us are perfect. A few interesting comments in the posts so far :
"I have nothing but the greatest sympathy for First Officers forced to button their lips and accept this crap from idiots in the LH seat."
The point that something is pedantic doesn't mean it is wrong. Captains are not normally promoted on the basis that they are "idiots". Perhaps you need to take a wider viewpoint and maybe that will come with more experience generally ? It is hard to make any meaningful comment on one persons reported experience or on one companies SOP's, since the the other persons viewpoint is not reported. I note that you appear to make a correlation with "Old" and "fool". There are many young fools as well and perhaps it is worth pointing out that, few of those old captains got to be old by being fools. Do you feel you might have an issue with age ?
"I know what you are saying! There is nothing worse than being criticized about a landing in extreme conditions only to watch the captain do an even worse job on the next sector knowing it would be bad CRM to make any comments! "
When I read this I wondered why the Commander was allowing the F/O to land in such "extreme conditions". It perhaps underscores the commanders faith in your ability ( though not seemingly recipriocated ?) or perhaps the conditions are only "extreme" from your viewpoint ? Generally speaking a commander would normally try and avoid placing the F/O as handling pilot at the more extreme parts of the operating envelope, as they have to answer for any consequences of such action.
"Sometimes when I look on my roster and find I’m going to be flying a 4 sector day with that pedantic idiot who preaches SOP’s but does not practice the preaching, not competent to fly a two crew aircraft and a damn right dangerous idiot, I then start feeling really unhappy with my job. This fool is the one who has no friends, and everyone in the Airline hates him. Yes we all know who he is and we have all flown with him"
Of course SOP's don't normally need to be "preached", they are the companys laid down methods for operating the "standard" procedures. You should be familiar with them and indeed thoroughly so. Given how unhappy you feel I am surprised you have not raised these concerns with the individual. Failing that you can raise them with another senior pilot such as your fleet manager or indeed anybody else you feel comfortable with. Clearly not "everyone in the airline hates him" as it would be very unlikely he would have attained his position and more importantly retained it, should that be the case. In any event the Captains job is not part of a popularity contest even though there is no reason why it shouldn't be enjoyable to fly with most if not all crewmembers. I would suggest rather than making yourself feel comfortable by placing yourself in your perceived "popular majority", you try and understand and adapt to this individuals style. It isn't always easy, but communication in its many guises often helps.
As other people have already said it isn't always easy in the left seat either ! However command brings with it extra responsibilities and tasks. It also places a pilot within the companies management framework. For some individuals that may place them in a perceived "box" that might account for behaviour that may seem pedantic to others. The captain may well have been subject to criticism in the past for something either he did or indeed allowed a First officer to do. He may therefore be very sensitive to certain behaviour or situations that others are not.
An individuals behaviour is often moulded by their own character and past experiences. It is probably worth remembering that as a First officer. Indeed like them or loath them, most "old" captains have been doing the job for some time, and doing it to their companies satisfaction. It is far better to learn from these individuals and filter what you value from what you do not. Being young, and or, being a co-pilot doesnt always make you right or pleasant either. It is a much harder job being a First officer because if you are good ( and I am assuming you are) you need to be a good adjutant and deputy manager to so many different characters, all of whom hold a position of authority. In my experience the best F/O's are the people who can do just that. They do it well, and themselves become commanders in the shortest timescale. Rarely do they bleat on about individuals they don't like as being "pedantic idiots" or " dangerous" or " we all hate him ". If there was any real justification for such comments the person making them would be bound to seek guidance as appropriate.
Perhaps a good new years resolution would be to make a determined effort to try and get on with the most difficult individuals. I suspect something could be learned from the effort. If not it will at least help you determine your own behaviour when in years to come you occupy that same seat and others think of you as a crusty Captain.
"I have nothing but the greatest sympathy for First Officers forced to button their lips and accept this crap from idiots in the LH seat."
The point that something is pedantic doesn't mean it is wrong. Captains are not normally promoted on the basis that they are "idiots". Perhaps you need to take a wider viewpoint and maybe that will come with more experience generally ? It is hard to make any meaningful comment on one persons reported experience or on one companies SOP's, since the the other persons viewpoint is not reported. I note that you appear to make a correlation with "Old" and "fool". There are many young fools as well and perhaps it is worth pointing out that, few of those old captains got to be old by being fools. Do you feel you might have an issue with age ?
"I know what you are saying! There is nothing worse than being criticized about a landing in extreme conditions only to watch the captain do an even worse job on the next sector knowing it would be bad CRM to make any comments! "
When I read this I wondered why the Commander was allowing the F/O to land in such "extreme conditions". It perhaps underscores the commanders faith in your ability ( though not seemingly recipriocated ?) or perhaps the conditions are only "extreme" from your viewpoint ? Generally speaking a commander would normally try and avoid placing the F/O as handling pilot at the more extreme parts of the operating envelope, as they have to answer for any consequences of such action.
"Sometimes when I look on my roster and find I’m going to be flying a 4 sector day with that pedantic idiot who preaches SOP’s but does not practice the preaching, not competent to fly a two crew aircraft and a damn right dangerous idiot, I then start feeling really unhappy with my job. This fool is the one who has no friends, and everyone in the Airline hates him. Yes we all know who he is and we have all flown with him"
Of course SOP's don't normally need to be "preached", they are the companys laid down methods for operating the "standard" procedures. You should be familiar with them and indeed thoroughly so. Given how unhappy you feel I am surprised you have not raised these concerns with the individual. Failing that you can raise them with another senior pilot such as your fleet manager or indeed anybody else you feel comfortable with. Clearly not "everyone in the airline hates him" as it would be very unlikely he would have attained his position and more importantly retained it, should that be the case. In any event the Captains job is not part of a popularity contest even though there is no reason why it shouldn't be enjoyable to fly with most if not all crewmembers. I would suggest rather than making yourself feel comfortable by placing yourself in your perceived "popular majority", you try and understand and adapt to this individuals style. It isn't always easy, but communication in its many guises often helps.
As other people have already said it isn't always easy in the left seat either ! However command brings with it extra responsibilities and tasks. It also places a pilot within the companies management framework. For some individuals that may place them in a perceived "box" that might account for behaviour that may seem pedantic to others. The captain may well have been subject to criticism in the past for something either he did or indeed allowed a First officer to do. He may therefore be very sensitive to certain behaviour or situations that others are not.
An individuals behaviour is often moulded by their own character and past experiences. It is probably worth remembering that as a First officer. Indeed like them or loath them, most "old" captains have been doing the job for some time, and doing it to their companies satisfaction. It is far better to learn from these individuals and filter what you value from what you do not. Being young, and or, being a co-pilot doesnt always make you right or pleasant either. It is a much harder job being a First officer because if you are good ( and I am assuming you are) you need to be a good adjutant and deputy manager to so many different characters, all of whom hold a position of authority. In my experience the best F/O's are the people who can do just that. They do it well, and themselves become commanders in the shortest timescale. Rarely do they bleat on about individuals they don't like as being "pedantic idiots" or " dangerous" or " we all hate him ". If there was any real justification for such comments the person making them would be bound to seek guidance as appropriate.
Perhaps a good new years resolution would be to make a determined effort to try and get on with the most difficult individuals. I suspect something could be learned from the effort. If not it will at least help you determine your own behaviour when in years to come you occupy that same seat and others think of you as a crusty Captain.
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Bealzebub - may I take this opportunity of wishing you an extremely good 'festive' and to hope we can see more of your posts on PPrune in 2005?
As usual, spot on! Words of advice that should be printed and framed by all 'aspiring' captains.
As usual, spot on! Words of advice that should be printed and framed by all 'aspiring' captains.
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Hey Bealzebub,
Your post is fully correct I cannot agree more, for the situation YOU describe. You are right, for the F/O normally a good landing is enough to make his/my day. The captain has a lot more on his shoulder. If I mess up, you mess up aswell etc.
Fact is I wanted to show how a certain captain at my airline behaves. Not only with me but with all F/O's. One even reports sick when he is scheduled with him. This was only one of many challenges I had with him.
Back to the story. I thought it was clear between the lines, but we all speak and write different languages, so no problem with that. I assume you wrote about me regarding the 'windshear' etc.. I can tell you this, there was NO WINDSHEAR at all, not on the ATIS, not reported by ATC either. The clue is I flew leg 2 and 3. Leg 2 was landed by me and indeed made my day. I didn't want to write it in these words but you force me to it. There WAS NO REASON AT ALL TO INTERFERE on leg 3. Actually it was really dangerous what he did. The rest I leave up to you. If I write it down you won't believe me anyway.
Enjoy the coming days and happy 2005.
Your post is fully correct I cannot agree more, for the situation YOU describe. You are right, for the F/O normally a good landing is enough to make his/my day. The captain has a lot more on his shoulder. If I mess up, you mess up aswell etc.
Fact is I wanted to show how a certain captain at my airline behaves. Not only with me but with all F/O's. One even reports sick when he is scheduled with him. This was only one of many challenges I had with him.
Back to the story. I thought it was clear between the lines, but we all speak and write different languages, so no problem with that. I assume you wrote about me regarding the 'windshear' etc.. I can tell you this, there was NO WINDSHEAR at all, not on the ATIS, not reported by ATC either. The clue is I flew leg 2 and 3. Leg 2 was landed by me and indeed made my day. I didn't want to write it in these words but you force me to it. There WAS NO REASON AT ALL TO INTERFERE on leg 3. Actually it was really dangerous what he did. The rest I leave up to you. If I write it down you won't believe me anyway.
Enjoy the coming days and happy 2005.
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We all know that some Captains are great to fly with and many to a greater or lesser extent a pain in the ass!
If/when i get my own command I hope I can remember what it was that made the good guys good and the others notso.
If/when i get my own command I hope I can remember what it was that made the good guys good and the others notso.
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Brain fade.. may you one day wear your four gold bars as golden feathers and not as lumps of lead.
Do not ponder too much from the sometimes lonely LHS that now you are the commander you are "Legally responsible for the safety of your flight to the extent of your worldwide wealth."
Stay single and invested all your salery in fast ladies, fast cars, and good beer, the rest you can waste.
Try and lead your crew with a loose rein, consider they have all been trained and most know and love their job.
As you progress you will from experiance find the point when as commander you need to step in and make decisions also the times when the reins require a bit of tightening and you need to get a grip on the flight firmer than usual. You will develop the art of smelling trouble very early and avoiding it before it hits.
No worries being a captain really... the worst that can happen is you can kill your crew and hundreds of passengers or get fired for your efforts.
Please beware of becoming all the things you hated in your former Captains. It is also better sometimes to be lucky than good.
So Good luck to you and I hope you find being a Captain is a piece of piss, I found the first 25years the worst then it got easier.
Do not ponder too much from the sometimes lonely LHS that now you are the commander you are "Legally responsible for the safety of your flight to the extent of your worldwide wealth."
Stay single and invested all your salery in fast ladies, fast cars, and good beer, the rest you can waste.
Try and lead your crew with a loose rein, consider they have all been trained and most know and love their job.
As you progress you will from experiance find the point when as commander you need to step in and make decisions also the times when the reins require a bit of tightening and you need to get a grip on the flight firmer than usual. You will develop the art of smelling trouble very early and avoiding it before it hits.
No worries being a captain really... the worst that can happen is you can kill your crew and hundreds of passengers or get fired for your efforts.
Please beware of becoming all the things you hated in your former Captains. It is also better sometimes to be lucky than good.
So Good luck to you and I hope you find being a Captain is a piece of piss, I found the first 25years the worst then it got easier.
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One of the differences of our job, compared to a 9to5, is to forget about the last sectors . Next trip it will be different!
In my company we used to say: The sum of a*****s is always the same, the names may differ.....
regards
In my company we used to say: The sum of a*****s is always the same, the names may differ.....
regards
Last edited by catchup; 25th Dec 2004 at 08:22.
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The best FOs will have the Captain look good by the end of the day, regardless of his/her abilities, attitude or aptitude.
They will in turn make the best commanders, since they have ample experience, tact, manners and leadership.
Good leaders lead by example, they praise in public, reprimand in private and stay in the background until the s**t hits the fan.
Any aviator will benefit from reading the book "Fate is the hunter", by Ernest K. Gann.
A little humility goes a long way, remember a lot was accomplished before our time in aviation.
Happy holidays to all, and fly safe!
They will in turn make the best commanders, since they have ample experience, tact, manners and leadership.
Good leaders lead by example, they praise in public, reprimand in private and stay in the background until the s**t hits the fan.
Any aviator will benefit from reading the book "Fate is the hunter", by Ernest K. Gann.
A little humility goes a long way, remember a lot was accomplished before our time in aviation.
Happy holidays to all, and fly safe!
Could not agree more about 'Fate is the Hunter' - required reading for any pilot regardless of experience - makes you realise that 60+ years ago the new recruits still had the same fears and aspirations that we had when in training or were new on the line.
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Been here before !
There are good Captains and bad Captains.
There are good F/O's and bad F/O's.
It was ever thus!
But please will all those F/O's with a chip on their shoulder please refrain from posting so much shxt about their bad experiences with Captain's for whom they have little regard.
One day, if ever you are good enough, you too may become a Captain; the responsibility is heavy and it is support from ones junior that one needs not continual bull**** on this forum!
Merry Christmas to one and all !!
There are good F/O's and bad F/O's.
It was ever thus!
But please will all those F/O's with a chip on their shoulder please refrain from posting so much shxt about their bad experiences with Captain's for whom they have little regard.
One day, if ever you are good enough, you too may become a Captain; the responsibility is heavy and it is support from ones junior that one needs not continual bull**** on this forum!
Merry Christmas to one and all !!
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First choice of meal!
Rule 1.
Always give the best meal to the F/O - you have no control over what may have been "done" to it down the back!
Rule 2. Do not mess with "them down the back"
Never know what has been "done" to the other meal either!
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year 2005
Always give the best meal to the F/O - you have no control over what may have been "done" to it down the back!
Rule 2. Do not mess with "them down the back"
Never know what has been "done" to the other meal either!
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year 2005
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I can remember being an F/O and thinking certain captains were a pain in the ass etc etc. But now I am a captain things havent changed much really, there are those you enjoy flying with and those you dont, some you just dont remember!!
It all boils down to human nature, the one thing i would remind some F/Os is that nearly all Captains were F/Os once so we DO know what it is like to sit in the right hand seat.
It all boils down to human nature, the one thing i would remind some F/Os is that nearly all Captains were F/Os once so we DO know what it is like to sit in the right hand seat.
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...To: HSWL, the originator of this thread:
HSWL Or yet another occasion when the rate of climb was phenomenal and I called out "Approaching 1000 to go". The LH seat pedantic calmly corrected me in a gentle sarcastic tone saying "the call is 1000 to go, NOT approaching 1000 to go." He completely missed the point that such was the rate of climb at the time, that the chimes would have sounded before I could have completed the support call - the chimes being the back-up to the support call - not the initiator.
Instead of bad mouthing the captain you should have stayed ahead of the "fast climbing" airplane and reduced your excessive climb rate to 500 feet per minute for the last 1000 feet, especially if you're in RVSM airspace, sir.
