type-rated (757) terrorists ?
 

Well, it seems from the passengers (who called on the cellulars) that the pilots where whisked away from the cockpit and the terrorists took control of the variouys planes, which are of only two types apparently, 757, 767.
This is disturbing, they probably had training with an experienced 757 or 767 pilot or instructor (middle-east operator ?).
This operation was well put-up and they did have few time to take control until point of impact. When you put someone without exp in a simulator, he does not fare too well.

God Bless America

As a B757/767 pilot, and I am sure many of my colleagues will concur, for anyone to take over the controls of one of these jets from anywhere not on a direct trajectory towards the targets, especially if not trimmed and if power is added or reduced, is likely to have had some, even if limited, training on type.

Someone somewhere has probably provided some sort of training, probably in a simulator, wittingly or unwittingly to these sub-humans who have caused this terrible tradgedy. Every training organisation worldwide must go back through their records and see if there is anything that they can find that would point to anyone with a profile that does not fit the norm. I cannot believe for one instant that there is ANY professional pilot anywhere int he world that would perpetrate this kind of senseless massacre whether voluntarily or even at gun or knife point.

I think nowadays aircrafts are made too easy to fly, with full autopilots. How hard would it be to change heading, airspeed and alt. with the autopilot.

I think a person who plays enough video games (flightsim) knows exactly what can be done.

God bless all who were involved.

I concur with smallwing I suspect that anyone with flt sim and one of the very realistic 757/767 add ons would probably have enough knowlege of the aircraft and its autopilot and FMC to have carried out the attack.

Anyone who has played with FS2000 or whatever may think they can control one of these jets at the drop of a hat but in my experience, and I remember the first time handling a big jet sim how difficult it was. Add to that the cockpit layout and the countless distractions it has to have been someone with some real sim training. No professional pilot would do this.

I understand you can hire these sims for about £200/hr?

Maybe thats what happened - they posed as 'enthusiasts' and got to practice flying the 757? :eek:

Lots organisation behind this obviousley.....

RIP to all involved. :( :(

I disagree. Autopilot controls are not sufficiently precise for an inexperienced pilot to hit as relatively small a target as the World Trade Centre or the Pentagon without precision guidance. It is conceivabe that a GPS-linked FMS guiding the autopilot might manage to hit these buildings, but that would require detailed knowledge of the precise FMS fitted to each of these aircraft. It is far more likely that these terrorists used experienced light-aircraft pilots who received a small amount of training in a B757/767 simulator to practise these exact manouevres.
It's a sick excercise, I know, but if you try to achieve something similar in FS2000 or other computer flight sim using an autopilot, I think you will discover that the chances of 'success' are far too small for the terrorists to have accepted. These pilots knew what they were doing.

I remember being told that it would be hard for a PPL trained pilot to control a heavy passenger jet due to the significant momentum of the aircraft. Dealing with that is not difficult, but requires practice. Is this true? Presumably, then, it would imply that they must have had some sort of sim training?

Interestingly enough, B.A runs simulator visits on its simulators for VIP's or just about anyone willing to pay. The standard sim-ride is to get airborne from JFK and fly through the "twin towers" !! As BA uses a standard database from the manufacturer, I wonder how many sim providers do similar things!! :confused:

the 757 that hit the Pentagon executed what seems to be a low level high speed attack and is described as maneuvering like a fighter. not likely a talent picked up in a sim.
see: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2001Sep11.html

Type rated? No I don't think so.
A training period at home with a suitable computer program and a "crash course" on an applicable simulator would be adequate to do the job.

I believe that maxy is spot on. All of these sims have the same database. It is clearly very easy to set up a simulator in the climb out of Boston for a crew to practise taking over the aircraft and flying it in to the World Trade Center - especially if the visual of Manhatten is in the database.

How many hours would it take to perfect this aswell as the operation of the autpilot and taking out the autopilot to fly it manually at the final stage? I reckon with Bin Laden's financial backing they could have spent as many hours as they needed in a sim.

However no simulator company would hire out their sim without knowing that there was a qualified instructor in charge of the sim detail. Therefore there has to be some airline involvement - possibly Iraq Air?

All of the aircraft were 757 / 767 which is a common rating. Check the useage of 757 / 767 sims over the last two years around the world and you will find something out.

Or - How about an "expert" opinion......

David Learmount, our old Flight International friend says in the Times Weds 12th:
Ok, David, so even if there were no struggle from the other pilot, or any resulting human debris from the shooting to move a body (or two) without destabilising the aircraft to a point where it became difficult to control is IMHO very unlikely.

Unless of course the AP was engaged, in which case obviously some experience would be necessary to disengage it and continue controlled, and apparently extremely skilled flight.

This qoute seems to me to be very Ill advised for a man in such a position to make.
Opinions anyone ?

Saturn V

I'm confused. Are you saying that it's a skill picked up in a fighter or a sign that the pilot was unskilled?? I'm just trying to understand the level of skill of the people flying those aircraft.

graphic of the flight paths of the four planes can be found at: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...jack091101.htm


the plane that hit the pentagon had flown west all the way to kentucky before turning east.

I understand that there are rumours coming out of America, reported this morning, that there were 8 planes hijacked and that 4 were shot down.

I think it's entirely possible that extremist sympathisers who are ex-military or airline pilots from Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan or Pakistan (and maybe others) were involved. Having an ATPL doesn't make one necessarily right-minded, nor does being an extremist (of whatever persuasion) make it impossible for one to have the skill to fly an airliner. There are, I'm sure, 757/767 sims (or sims of similar types of aircraft)in those countries, and it may be very difficult to establish whether any unusual use was made of them recently.

Velvet:
I find it very unlikely that the crashes (for they must have crashed, having been shot down) of four further large aircraft would have gone un-noticed in the current media bunfest. Nothing of that nature could possibly have been suppressed; Americans would have been on to the phone to the local TV companies immediately anything fell out of the sky, and we would probably have home-video footage of some of it. No, I think that one is wishful thinking on the part of some local radio or TV junior hack.

[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: Scroggs ]

Perhaps I should have said that they could use the autopilot/FMS to get themselves in the general area of the WTC or Pentagon. and then hand fly in the final phase - we're not talking about finesse. I'm not suggsting that this was the case just saying that it is possible.
On another point, I've done one of the these VIP (perk of being a journo) things at braincrank with the said hand flying around Manhattan and the WTC (744 sim) and frankly in the light of yesterday it was disturbingly easy (for a GA type of driver). I accept that with a clearly well researched attack the perps may and indeed, hopefully (since it may help in tracking them down) sought some kind of professional level training.

Evo7, not saying that the pentagon hijacker was a former fighter pilot. I am thinking that the hijacker probably had some hours in a jet aircraft, and that doesnt mean he was type-rated. But the overall flight profile and the description of him coming in very low and very fast and then banking right to hit the pentagon suggest to me that there were skills applied that one would not get easily from a sim.

An appalling lack of restraint and common sense is being shown by certain people on this web site. Any pilot will have a reasonable idea of how this can be achieved. Anyone else does not NEED TO KNOW. Can we all please stop any discussion of technical/operational methods that may have been used. Confine PUBLIC discussion to how to find the perps, stop the next attempt (and there will be a next attempt, and it could be your aircraft). :mad:

The mobile calls from the poor people on board these aircraft indicated that the terrorists were stabbing, or threatening to stab, the cabin crew to entice them out of the flight deck (FD). All this brings in to stark relief that if these fanatics hadn't gained access to the controls then these tragedies would be have been less likely to happen.
In my ops manual, any cabin disturbance should never be a reason to leave the flight deck. I wonder whether the pilots in the crashed aircraft were forced out of the FD, or left it to try and help their crew? It must have been a bloody invidious position to be in and I can't believe that any one put in their position with knowledge of previous hijacks, mainly ending peacefully, can blame them for their actions (whatever they were, despite this outcome). I feel however that in the near future that there may be some sort of legislation to keep the pilots at the controls and FD doors to remain locked at all times. This would make pee breaks, food and drink moments a bit interesting to achieve, particularly on long haul. Does any one out there have any thoughts on this one?

Scroggs, you're probably right. It probably is down to an arab nation. However, the US would be unwise not to look at it's own first (at least before nuking Afghanistan!). There are plenty of home-grown crazies there to get off on this sort of thing, and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if some of them have large jet experience...

Someone trained these "Killers"...Who sold them the simulator time?? Its time we found out..

Reports this morning say that Arabic language flight manuals were found in a rental car in BOS. Also, search warrants are being executed in Daytona Beach, home of one of the Embry Riddle campuses that trains many students of Middle Eastern origin. Apparently at least some of the hijackers held UAE passports.

From the Washington Post - a fair amount of journalistic license, however this does support the belief that the terrorists involved had considerable depth of knowledge of the aircraft.

------------------

The hijacked jetliner that slammed into the Pentagon had been flying directly at the White House but made a sharp turn at the last minute before it crashed into the US military headquarters, The Washington Post reported Wednesday.

Citing unnamed sources, the report said American Airlines Flight 77 seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House Tuesday until the unidentified pilot executed a fighter jet maneuver, circling 270 degrees to to approach the Pentagon from the west.

The Post said someone on board turned off the transponder, the device that sends a plane's airline identification, flight number, speed and altitude to controllers' radar screens. The actions suggest the plane was flown with extraordinary skill, probably by a trained pilot was at the helm, with someone who knew how to turn off the transponder.

It said controllers had time to warn the White House that the jet was aimed directly at the presidential mansion at full speed.
The report said the FBI had asked airline, airport and security officials not to divulge details of the flight.

Pentagon officials had no estimate of the killed, missing and wounded from the Boeing 757, which collapsed a large section of the building's west side.

Reports that as many 800 people were dead were "completely inaccurate," a Pentagon official said speaking on condition of anonymity.

United Airlines tested a bunch of low time private pilots in heavy jet sims a few years ago and the majority of them were able to fly the planes however it was not precise flying and the landings were hairy but survivable. The kind of flying we saw yesterday would have required some time in the sim to transition. The second plane that hit the WTC certainly looked like it was being slipped precisely.

The find of arabic language flight manuals is great for the investigators but sounds a little... suspicious. It would be very careless of the perpetrators to leave something like that hanging around the airport...
Remember the tapes exhibit the hijackers communicating with each other in English.

Do you really believe that a pilot without any previous jet experience could fly a B767 or a B757 during a low flight, presumably at 250kt or faster, make that precise small turn just prior to hit exactly the target?
A FS pilot only could fly an airplane if the A/P were engaged, hands on experience is quite nil. If non experienced pilots would have tried that maneuver, without any doubt, they'd flown to the wrong direction, at least once, and in those cases, there were only one attempt (except UAL757).
I don't think that B767/757 simulator training is required to fly those airplanes since you have some knowledge of FMS, MCP controls, and of course some jet airplane reaction experience, during manual flight. Landing practice wasn't absolutely required...

From the time of deviation from submitted flight path to impact, FAA should have known the hijacking for about 30 minutes.

Was FAA and FBI aware of the conspiracy after crashing at WTC and were there any other plane deviated from regular flight path at that time?

It was a wise decision to ground all flights over the America yesterday.

From the flight path, transponder was turned off and precision flying, there is little doubt, those planes were commanded by trained pilots.

My condolence to Americans and may those RIP.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...jack091101.htm

Regarding flight training, found this...

------------------------------------------
The FBI interviewed a Venice, Fla., couple Wednesday about two men who stayed at their house for a week in July 2000 while the men were taking small-plane flight training at Venice Municipal Airport.

FBI agents "informed me that there were two individuals that were students at Huffman Aviation, my employer, and FBI told me they were involved in yesterday's tragedy,'' said Charlie Voss, who was interviewed with his wife, Drew Voss, at their home.

The couple accepted the two men as house guests as a favor to the company, Voss said. The men, who stayed just a few days, trained at the airport and came to the house to sleep, he said.
------------------------------------------

The Aircrew were told that no-one would be hurt if they co-operated. No one had any clue these guys were suicide hijackers. I imagine they were expecting to spend a few days onboard on the ground at somewhere like Cuba. I hope no one dares to question the crews actions! Just ask yourselves guy's what would you do?

Condolence to all innocents involved

The world changed forever yesterday & I lost my faith in humanity. All that in the name of religon?....Oh Please!!

Desk Driver,

I agree. Religion is probably the single biggest killer on this planet!

Assuming the hijackers had some training and/or advanced knowlege of the 757/767, would it not be prudent for the FAA to perhaps ground all 57s/67s for a few extra days while they further their investigation?

I know this would be devastating to some carriers that rely on these types quite heavily, though more hulls/lives lost would be an even greater concern. Some carriers, like Southwest, Alaskan, or Northwest would feel little effect.

The question raised over the "slipping" of the aircraft into the second tower is interesting. I have watched the approach of the UA 767 into the building and concluded:

1. The pilot crossed his controls to expose the wings to 5-10 floors, as opposed to crashing in into one, to gain maximum devastation.

2. It was a higly executed and professional flying manouver to precisely hit the spot and to prevent any possible drift - which suggests complete manual control over the aircraft.

It is also interesting to note that at least one of the aircraft, before the transponder was turned off, indicated a new airport code had been entered into the FMC which suggests the hijackers had enough knowledge to re-do the route. This would indicate a relatively high level of workings in the systems and handling of the aircraft - something that would surely come from groundschool and sim preparations.

A shocking, deeply disturbing episode in world history.

May God give wisdom to those left, and blessings to those lost.

I was in a 744 sim with a guy who flew under the Golden Gate bridge 10mins after taking the controls with no previous flying experience. A/T engaged but no other aids.

Assuming the crew or automatics got them to within visual range and in relatively stable flight, I don't see that type-rating would have been needed to do the final deadly part.

Horrible day, RIP.

OK, I hadn't heard any of this info about transponder or FMC changes. I withdraw my previous comment.

It seems to me that the available information can lead to many different conclusions. For example:

Was the bank the UA 767 executed a "brilliantely executed" "slip" to "inflict maximum damage"? Or was it a desparate bank to actually hit the building, when the terrorist feared he might miss it?

Was the reported 270 degree turn executed by the AA 757 before hitting the Pentagon a "fighter-like" maneuver? Or was it a second approach made necessary because the pilot missed the first one?

Either interpretation would be consistent with the evidence as we know it so far. We shouldn't discount the possibility that these nuts (to use the most polite word that comes to mind) had little more than a PPL (for basic flying skills) and some MS Flight Sim time (from which they could have learned the necessary instrument layout and use -- some of the instrument panels are amazingly detailed and, I'm told, accurate).

And if we're using turning off the transponder as evidence of their having had in-depth training, bear in mind that only one of the four flights (the AA 757 that crashed into the Pentagon) seems to have done so. Plus, turning off the transponder isn't hard -- all you need is to think to do it, and know what it looks like.

I do have to admit that a good level of Stick and Rudder skill would of been required on jets if not on type.

However new desktop sims have copycat FMC, EFIS, EICAS and MCP etc etc. You would be surprised just how much someone with basic flying experience would learn from such a package. These computer facilities would without doubt prove to be a significant learning aid in getting to grips with the basics (and potentially more!) on the FMC, Autopilot, and general Systems.

On the other hand if you take into account the significant planning that would of been spent during the lead up to the horrific event. I would think that any serious terrorism organisation would try and ensure that the odds were not stacked against them in pulling off such a stunt by getting people trained up or getting people who were qualified.

I also feel that even though they apparently only had knives, if they were pilots or had done their homework then they would of known where to locate the Fire Axe and Crowbar etc etc. Those emergency items would be lethal in the wrong hands!

MG

[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: Mister Geezer ]

My humble opinion, as one who has been very closely affected by this, is that you may find some evidence among the ranks of a certain Afg**n airline named like a European space rocket (protecting Danny's site, I'll not actually name it).

The UAL 767 seemed to be flying at an extremely high speed, and that takes some skill. You cannot reproduce the change in pitch and feel forces on a 75/76 on a desktop, or in a Cessna. Out of trim, the 757 in particular is a load.

I'm livid. I feel like it's time to deliver some spare pleutonium, but I'll let the Government take it's course. Just because some other peoples' cultures are basically disfunctional, why vent your fury on innocents? :mad: :mad: :mad:

In The Latest CNN Headlines here in the US, two Brothers are suspected in the crash. One of which was either a student or instructor at the Piper school in Vero Beach Florida (check out www.cnn.com) Vero Beach was evacuated to search the house, and neighbors were interogated saying that the "arabic" pilot and a female had moved out a few days before. Moreover, a gentleman called police the day of the crash after getting into a fight with four "arabic" looking men at the Boston Logan Airport regarding a parking space. Inside the car(Nissan Altima - a possible rental) a flight trainng manual in arabic was found along with UAE passports and some other items.