This type of system has no ability to discriminate between civilian aircraft or military aircraft. It simply targets based on a radar contact that is designated as a target. When the FIRE button is pushed, it goes after the target that is locked. IFF and transponders do not enter into the picture other than determining what the target is.

Ye and like the U.S. which is where Boeing is located doesn't

I don't see why not. Snow Drift does not communicate with SA-11 directly, it sends reports to the command post which can manually assign targets to TELARs. They are fully self-sufficient and capable of autonomous operation.

Insurance claims may be challenged as "acts of war" have exclusions. :{

There is separate 'War Cover' underwritten by what is locally known as the 'War Market', quite possibly increased premiums for aircraft choosing to overfly that route - all cover almost certainly suspended for over flights now.

Of all the places the "black boxes" should be sent to, Moscow is sure the hell not one of them. There is no logical, aviation reason for Moscow to have those recorders, only political.

Ministry of Disinformation.
 

That`s the very worst thing that could happen now.

lt`s stealing evidence.

lt should go to an independent house.

By force of arms if necessary.

A black box isn't going to be of as much use as access to the crash site. Bits of missile warhead buried in the skin panels are the smoking gun, and should clarify which missile hit it.

I doubt that the black boxes have much value in what caused this accident. I suspect we will know who and where this was launched from within the next 72 hours. The big question is are what we going to do about it to make sure it does not happen again?

Ceasefire
 

There was reported to be a suggestion of a three day ceasefire to allow investigations, from Alexander Borodai "PM" of the Donetsk rebels.

Its actually making sure there's no incriminating evidence.

Could one of the major players have deliberately done this, yes, is it likely, NO! To much potential blow back if it ever came out who was behind this.

Could one of the major players have accidentally done this, yes, is it likely, yes! Even well trained armed forces have done it.

So the question is what system was it, and what level of training and support was actually needed to operate the system. There is no doubt Russia has advisors in the area, and others actually running things, the question is, did they have them helping out with that particular system.

It is no secret that the rebels have been pushed back lately, and as a result material support increasing to them. The simple fact is, nobody on the Rebel or Russian side (the players) will give a sh!t about a couple of hundred people, its war.

What they will give a sh!t about, is the PR and potential fallout.

Unconfirmed but read this :

UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office issues strong travel warning
Thu, 17 Jul 2014 23:21 +0000 GMT

The UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) advise against all travel to: Crimea, Donetsk oblast (region), Lugansk oblast (region) read more
Latest: Malaysia Airlines press conferences in Kuala Lumpur and Amsterdam
Thu, 17 Jul 2014 22:45 +0000 GMT

Many European tourists on their way to vacation in Malaysia and other East Asian countries were on the passenger list of MH 17. read more
Airbus sets new record at Farnborough
Thu, 17 Jul 2014 21:48 +0000 GMT

During the 2014 Farnborough Air Show, Airbus won US$75.3 billion worth of business for a total of 496 aircraft, making it by far the largest Farnborough show for Airbus – both in terms of dollar val...
Colombian tourism enjoying strong growth following surge in UK visitors
Thu, 17 Jul 2014 21:21 +0000 GMT

A significant rise in airlift from the UK is set to combine with a surge in hotel development to further fuel the dramatic rise in UK visitor numbers seen in recent years, according to the Colombian...
Russia's Transaero Airlines commits to 20 A330s
Thu, 17 Jul 2014 21:20 +0000 GMT

Transaero Airlines, Russia’s second largest airline, signed a Letter of Intent with Airbus for 20 A330 aircraft (8 A330ceo and 12 A330neo). read more
KLM : Statement Malaysia Airlines MH17
Thu, 17 Jul 2014 21:20 +0000 GMT

KLM (Royal Dutch Airlines) issued the following statement on Thursday evening: read more
UKRAINIAN MILLITARY ESCORTED B777 UNTIL 3 MINUTES BEFORE DISAPPEARING
Ukraine air traffic controller suggests Kiev military shot down passenger plane





Jul 17, 2014
ETN received information from an air traffic controller in Kiev on Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.

This Kiev air traffic controller is a citizen of Spain and was working in the Ukraine. He was taken off duty as a civil air-traffic controller along with other foreigners immediately after a Malaysia Airlines passenger aircraft was shot down over the Eastern Ukraine killing 295 passengers and crew on board.

The air traffic controller suggested in a private evaluation and basing it on military sources in Kiev, that the Ukrainian military was behind this shoot down. Radar records were immediately confiscated after it became clear a passenger jet was shot down.

Military air traffic controllers in internal communication acknowledged the military was involved, and some military chatter said they did not know where the order to shoot down the plane originated from.

Obviously it happened after a series of errors, since the very same plane was escorted by two Ukrainian fighter jets until 3 minutes before it disappeared from radar.

Radar screen shots also show an unexplained change of course of the Malaysian Boeing. The change of course took the aircraft directly over the Eastern Ukraine conflict region.

Some tweets received suggest this may have been a secret military uprising against the current Ukrainian president under the direction of formerly-jailed Prime Minister Timoshenko.

According to other rumors, the black box for this crashed Malaysian Airlines flight was taken by Donetsk separatists. A spokesperson for the rebel group said this black box would be sent to the Interstate Aviation Committee headquartered in Moscow.

The First Deputy Prime Minister of the self-proclaimed People's Republic of Donetsk, Andrew Purgin, stated that the flight recorders of the crashed aircraft will be transferred to Moscow for examination.

Sources say the Rebel group leadership hopes this would confirm the Ukrainian military actually shot down this aircraft. This was reported by the news agency Interfax-Ukraine.

ETN statement: The information in this article is independently confirmed and based on the statement of one airline controller and other tweets received.

con pilot, the U. S. military spy satellite tracked the plane and the ascent phase of the missile, but not the launch. But then again, the U. S. typically doesn't reveal all of a satellite's capabilities.

KLM released no such statement. Their statements are visible here: Newsroom KLM

It was an infrared satellite, it can determine the launch site from the initial heat signature from when the missile was launched. I thought that was common knowledge, but if the powers to be don't want to make that public, well I guess we'll not be told.

A very interesting point and I entirely agree. When a suspected military operation impacts a commercial flight the government involved should not be trusted at all, regardless of whether it is the USA, USSR or any other country for that matter.

I am sure there will be many opinions voiced loudly over this, more so than the TWA800 tragedy.

From the purely legal point of view, they actually have to be sent to Moscow. Ukraine is a member of the "International Aviation Committee (MAK)", which is responsible for accident investigations in most of ex-USSR member stages.

So a crash in the Ukraine (and it is still an accident at this point, since the missile is not 100% proven) would indeed be investigated by Moscow.

No, this plane flew exactly as other aircraft in the area - it bypassed the area singled out by Eurocontrol as 'dangereous' (and restricted), it was outside the restricted airspace. This plane flew exactly as everybody else in the area per the latest info. Also the "closed" areas in the general area only blocked altitudes to FL320, this plane flew higher. So this plane was 100% 'legal' in terms of its route.

Try this one..



BTW, belay my post #233!

To add a bit of perspective.


Has anybody considered the possibility a missile was NOT involved in the downing of this jet...?!

MH370 springs to mind. This time with a little bit of evidence to play with.

CNN says US Authorities say US 'assets in the region' detected the launch based on the radar lock-on from the ground. (not just the infrared heat signature)

And so with disregard to the target aircraft, radar paint, flight level, speed and/or heading or the standard overflight air routes, the SAM installation operator and his/her commander/adviser, with seemingly no IFF information, fired on the unidentified jet. It demonstrates an absence of any rules of engagement, comprehension of air route networks or target risk assessment and that this was either a premeditated act or just reckless action, both of which would constitute either a barbarous terrorist act or war crime regardless of the perpetrators.

The biggest problem here is when the government stands to loose face with such an incident then you cannot trust them not to tamper with any of the evidence. It will be very interesting to see just how co-operative and transparent the international investigation process will be.

IFF was created for military usage and when civilians use it's function they do it 180 degrees opposite from the way a military would use it.

Since a military can't get the enemy to squawk an identifying code they have their 'friendly" A/C squawk a unique code.

Thus military air defense ignores all codes except the one they are looking for, and they wouldn't give a hoot if a target is squawking the same code used by airliners.

In today's case, with no air war in progress, there would have been no "friendly" code activated, so the SAM crew probably didn't even query the target they were engaging. There was no information for them to find in IFF codes.

Buk repairs
 

Adding to the BUK operations discussion - just three days ago Sergey Kurginyan has promised to the DNR leaders that "a group of specialists has just arrived that will be repairing the Buk launchers taken in Ukraininan military base". This was probably part of the meeting at 7 July where they argued on details of arms deliveries to DNR.

Since 2012 Ukraine has its own accident investigation bureau and it no longer needs MAK to provide these services.

One of the reasons I am so adamant that planes should be well clear of war zones is that in the event of bad weather or an emergency there is room for planes to descend rapidly (ie example rapid depressurisation/loss of power) and not end up being shot down. Of course taking route deviations in war time costs extra fuel... but

Not overfly warzones?

Emirates, Flydubai and other airlines fly to Afghanistan and Iraq. Mogadishu is under consideration.
If you apply to Flydubai, it is clearly stated that you may be rostered to fly into warzones.

Money talks.

The prime suspect goes by the name Strelkov - or "shooter". Real name Igor Girkin, the former Russian intelligence officer has shot his own troops for insubordination. He may have just shot down a passenger plane with 298 people on board.

As previously stated it appears to be a missile that shot the 777 down so the CVR FDR would be useless anyway.....

All things normal.........then data stops..

The KAL007 CVR and FDR was hidden in a safe of a Soviet official in the Kremlin until the Soviet Union broke up. Until it was handed over and analyzed, the West had no idea of what happened to the aircraft in terms of the breakup.

It turned out the cockpit crew was alive after the missile strike and was trying their best to control the aircraft. They also heard cabin announcements in the CVR which led them to believe that the aircraft was relatively intact after the missile strike. The passengers and crew suffered.

Unfortunately, the CVR and FDR are probably on the way to Moscow right now, probably never to be seen again for another generation.

God Bless General Patton. He had the right idea in 1945 after conquering western Nazi Germany, the Allies should've pushed on to Moscow.

Something many in the aviation community are asking is why the hell were airlines flight planning departments routing their aircraft any where near a hot war zone, especially where an aircraft has been shot down in the 72 hrs before. It has been widely reported and shown on video that high powered SAM's were being brought into the area, as well as armed combat jets.

I imagine the relatives of the victims of the aircraft will be asking this question, leading into a lawsuit of biblical proportions.

The report you mentioned is about another plane allegedly shot down on Monday in the Donetsk region: Contact lost with crew of An-26 military transport plane in Luhansk region


Be aware that the separatists claim to have shot down a number of Ukrainian military aircraft in the past weeks: Including at least seven Su-25 attack jets, three Su-24 attackers, one Su-27 fighter jet, an Il-76 military transport aircraft, and at least 17 Mi-8 and Mi-24 military helicopters.

Carjockey.

I suspect the 'unverified' could cover a number of different things. Normally next of kin are notified before the name of the deceased are announced. You may remember some of the passenger names and nationalities on MH370 who were announced as missing and presumably deceased were not on the flight and still living.

The CVR would shed light on whether there was a Ukrainian air force escort. I'm surprised that there should be one - unless the fighters were hiding behind it! A wild idea - could the SSR transponder have failed? If it were being escorted because the transponder had failed, that would explain an air force escort that peeled off before they came in range of a rebel air defence unit.

Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) requires a nationality to be stated in an SSR message sent to the airline, but I don't think Malaysia is one of the 20 or so countries that requires it.
A number of the passengers were on their way to Australia, which is an APIS country, and their PNRs would have contained this, others would not.

An airline generally only requires that a passenger present one passport at check in.

That said, when a passenger checks in, the passport they present is used to check the entry requirement of the destination country. If the passport does not automatically qualify for entry, other checks are done which may require other passports.

For example, if you book a flight from the USA to Australia, when you book the flight you are often asked for passport information. Let's say you are a dual citizen, USA and Australia. You might book the flight with your Australian passport, as this is the passport that qualifies you for the entry requirements into Australia. At the gate in the USA, you would present your Australian passport. On the return flight back to the USA, often the gate agent needs the passport that matches the id used to make the booking. However, you will also need to present proof that you are eligible to enter the USA. This might be a visa in your passport or a passport of the country that you are entering. When you get to customs, they will want to see the passport of the destination country, regardless of what the check in agent asked to see.

I have three passports and have gone through this exercise countless times between countries. How it was handled by the airline was inconsistent and there were cases where my checked baggage (firearm importation) and the laws of the destination country seemed to make a difference.

My point is that having multiple passports is not uncommon, so where the airline has to classify each person by citizenship, they may have to do some homework. The public expects a clear answer right away and are unforgiving of corrections, so it might be better to say "unverified" and buy some time than get it wrong and change the story later.

As an aside, when I file a passenger manifest for flying people internationally (privately) out of the US with EAPIS, there is only one identity for passenger citizenship, so you have to choose whether it is the origin or destination country passport if the passenger has both.

From Canberra - Australian Minister For Foreign Affairs, Julie Bishop, has announced a revised figure for the number of Australians on board, from the reported 27, to a revised number of 28.

Source - ABC Radio.

Talk about identification, roe, controls, war ZONES, etc are all from a Western, civilized and humanitarian aspect. One has only to consider what has happened from the Balkans through to the Middle East to realise behavioural norms are different.

One would think that if a substantial number of United States citizens were on board, that there will be significant US involvement in the investigation.

However, at this point, there seems to be some speculation on how many US passengers there were:

1. Joe Biden said "There may have been American citizens on board"

Vice President Biden speaks at Cobo | News - Home

2. Other posters: "There is supposedly a large number of Americans dead. 23 is rumored." (A few posts back). I don't know from where this number originated.

3. The official Malaysian Airlines manifest report, yet incomplete, does not include any Americans, but 41 unverified:

http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/mh17.html