tcmel,

You may have answered your own question. Stationary, versus aircraft moving at 600MPH and Fan blades turning at a high RPM.

Call me a chicken but last time i looked before i put on my uniform and stepped into my 737 it didnt have TEST PILOT written on it anywhere. I aint going anywhere near the skies until the experts say OK. By experts I mean profs who know about this stuff not some pilots from Holland and Germany.
Sat at home enjoying the weather and rerun of the Grand Prix.

@ Penko
There was a post much earlier in this thread where one of the experts described that what happens is that when the lava hits the ice of the covering glacier: It freezes into glass; then the pressure builds up and it explodes - which shatters the previously frozen glass into sharp-edged shards of glass.
This makes it different from sand because (a) sand has rounded edges, and (b) the melting point of sand is way above the temperatures encountered in a jet engine, whereas the glass (more accurately, silicate) has a melting point considerably lower than the temperatures in a jet engine.

OK?

Good one:D:O:*

Hello JetII

Engineering aproach
 

As mentioned by jcjeant in 791

Seem's they forget the volcanic ashes http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/smile.gif

and if there is no measurement of Volcanic ash density....

seems we are in bad shape to establish procedures.

I think is time to a more engineering aproach....

BA 747 test flight
 

Announced on BBC News a few minutes ago that the BA 747 test flight planned for this evening (but still apparently subject to confirmation) will have just 5 people on board including Willie Walsh.

HVO (Lagu Hvolar) seismometer which is the closest to Katla is peaking:
Órói á stöðvum við Eyjafjallajökul

Tremor

OK? I thought vulcanic ash was rougher than sand anyway. With the process discribed above, freezing lava on a bed of ice, there can't be that much glass in the sky? How much ice is left to be blown up on a vulcano that has been erupting for almost a week?

Re Dutch and German experts. All you have to do is fly through those dangerous skies and let the engineers on the ground examine the results. A bit more respect for the people who are actually working on a solution might suit us!

Oh, you mean like the politicians running the NATS?

Smell of sulphur in the village yesterday and fine sandy dust on the car and that's in Cornwall. I believe Skybus continued operating between NQY and ISC up until yesterday when the found ash onone of their Twotters. BIH helicopters from Penzance have since stopped. I've stood all my crew down for tomorrow and cancelled everything. It makes for a quiet day.

Going to bring some old tins of paint in and redecorate the office tomorrow!

Now that seems a very fair proposal!
 

Couldn't agree more :D

@say mach number

Are these people at your taste?
;)

Brilliant observation, if we shut down forever we'll be saving lots of lives from avoided accidents (in fact we should shut down those areas not affected by the volcano too given that some accidents will happen there too. If the Poles had forbidden any and all flights undoubtedly the Katyn accident would have been avoided)

On this cam it's clearly erupting still

Eyjafjallajökull frá Valahnúk

I guess from your response and the aircraft you fly, that you have never flown near active volcanoes before.

After 30 years and 18,000 hours, I have flown near near lots of active volcanoes in the Pacific and Caribbean. Occasionally I have had to re-route around ash clouds of those that erupt while in flight.

I am having a difficult time understanding what appears to be a large scale over reaction to a world wide phenomenon which happens quite regularly.

There is a solution for almost every problem. :cool:
http://i43.tinypic.com/21c5hfd.jpg

GSLOC are you sure it's stopped, we all want to hear that it has...fingers crossed!

Yep, thanks to the idiots from Germany and Holland I presume?
Will the nay sayers on here subsequently refuse to work tomorrow?:ok:

Good news anyway, but once we resume flight, we as air crew will need some UNAMBIGUOUS sensible information as to what we are to be careful of once up in the air. Is it the invisible cloud of the last few days? Or should we just look out for the nasty brown stuff? Might that cirrus cloud be ash, or was that just overreaction from NATS? We desperately need that info clearly.

Spanish airports reopen
 

Acording to AENA the following airports reopen today from 15:30

Barcelona, Girona, Reus, Sabadell, Palma de Mallorca, Menorca, Son Bonet, Asturias, Santander, Bilbao, San Sebastián, Vitoria, Pamplona, Logroño, Huesca y Zaragoza

Behind the cumulus when there is a small break in cloudcover, it's for sure still erupting..

Small commentary on pragmatism, cooperation, and community
 

I find this event has caught airlines flying to the UK and EU countries with their collective pants down and I am very surprised there are not alternative contingencies being sought out. With thousands of passengers being kept in sandwiches and marginal accommodations around the world, how is it that an actionable plan is not worked out among our transit partners?

For example, for those seeking to return home to the EU and UK, why have flights not begun departing for the still remaining open airports in Southern Italy and Spain and then motor coach and rail could carry passengers home from there? The same could be accomplished for the reverse - that is those wishing to leave the UK and European continent.

Finally one other point: Here in the states there are hundreds of passengers stranded at JFK with a few of the lucky ones finding rooms in nearby Manhattan and Brooklyn. How is it that society has become so jaded and disconnected that local residents and civic organizations haven't opened their hearts and doors to these unlucky travelers? There would seem to be a threshold of misfortune that must be crossed before people start thinking beyond their own perimeters and comfort zones.

You seriously expect politicians to admit to hysteria?

NATS is a private company, the only ANSP in Europe which is not run by government. However the skies are owned by the government and NATS operate with the terms of the licence issued by the government.
NATS is the UK ANSP, all the other European ANSPs have acted similarly to NATS (although Norway was first) although some countries have banned flying completely the UK has not.

BD

According to Sky news BA gonna use a 747 for a test flight from LHR out over Ireland and then into CWL 5 people onboard including Willy Walsh.

Still looks like it going here... 3rd pic down, manual refresh required. Cloud keeps getting in the way but it was clear a few minutes ago!

Mulakot - myndavelar

You will need to manually refresh for current shots: http://www.mulakot.net/images/myndavelar/14flugv.jpg

When this eventually ends and NATS give the green light, has anyone thought of the possible rush to get to an airport by 4+ days backlog of passengers. It's going to be bedlam for the larger airports. I would imagine that most have stayed in situ and are sitting it out in hotels, family homes etc.

Now that is a possible failure mode that IS analogous to flying in dust/sand storms. Not much evidence of pitot blockage in these conditions - especially as none of the 'lets fly' brigade here are envisaging flying in heavily contaminated areas. I've seen more dust on my mantlepiece than in the channel skies this weekend.

I did once get an ice warning at 39o centigrade, which turned out to be an insect of some kind hitting the probe, but I don't think the ash will do anything similar.

.

French airspace
 

re-opened above FL205 at 1450z

What did I tell you. Big transport operating on two engines (two back at idle, so no melting) flying as high as possible and into the dirtiest areas to check for engine damage. :D :D

Nice to see you are reading my posts Willie, but you are two days too late, you've lost £50 million already. My commission for getting BA flying again is 5%. You can credit my Jersey account. :ok: :ok:


Shame he cannot find a Nimrod, though. :( :(


.

Lost in Saigon I guess from your response your not an expert in the field of volcanoes and the effects on jet engines of volcanic ash but as a commercial pilot just like me.

In your opinion it may be 'a large scale over reaction' but the experts disagree.

I think I will stick on the side of the volcanoe and engine experts.

PS its difficult to avoid something you cant see especially at night. Thats my opinion as a pilot not as a volcanic ash expert.

There you have it. Even a VAAC insider says it: avoid all 'visible' (reasonable evidence that it's there) ash. :D

All the rest is overreacting! :eek:

You forgot to mention that Zee Govt is the largest shareholder w 49% of the shares. Which means that it will appoint most board members and approve any executives.

Do you still maintain that it's a private company, or would you rather admit it's Zee Govt pretending to be a private company run by Politicians.

The arguments here seem to be based on either one of two polemics:

a) There is no problem. We've all been flying near volcanoes for years and only those aircraft unlucky enough to stray too close have ever had a problem. Or

b) You pilots are all crazy. There's no way anyone should be flying under any circumstances when there's all this volcanic debris in the air.

Patently both points of view are extreme and both are probably wrong. Yes, it's true that we've been flying for years around these things, but we haven't ever, as far as I know, had the current combination of this type of volcanic eruption and a static met situation which parks the lot over the world's busiest airspace. It's probably also true that we haven't previously been able to detect much of the stuff that's now keeping us on the ground, and that a good deal of engine wear in the past maybe down to expeosure to similar stuff.

It's rubbish both to suggest that any flight that gets airborne now will suffer a multiple flame-out and all on board will die, just as it's rubbish to say that there will be no ill-effects on any aircraft that does fly. What has to be determined is the acceptable potential maintenance load we may be incurring if we fly sensibly removed from the densest ash concentrations. It is obvious that all jet transport aircraft are exposed to some extent to volcanic ash every time they fly, as volcanoes are continuously erupting around the world and the residue is constantly present in the atmosphere. As data has not yet been adequately gathered to assess what effects this current phenomenon has on aircraft, it makes economic sense that that data is acquired right now. Whether anyone here likes it or not, there are aircraft and crews available and ready to do this if the funding is found. I have no doubt that, facing financial oblivion otherwise, the airline industry will find that money.

Indeed, it seems they are finding it, as KLM, Lufthansa and BA (and maybe others) are launching test flights as we write. However, are these tests co-ordinated and is the data that is acquired representative and readable across to the general industry? Let's hope so.

Not flying indefinately is not an alternative. Pragmatism must win out.

Ahhh, the new nineties and naughties cult of total risk aversion is still as strong as ever. I'll give you a piece of advice for future reference - life ain't like that kid. No aircraft would ever fly under your regime.


.

Still erupting
 

Hi Someone posted that it had stopped, but Sky News reporter live on the ground not only confirmed it's still on but said it gets worse.

Also how can anyone doubt the damage to engines when you see that Fighter jet engine on the Sky News reports?

I have been following the NATS news page closely since this all started and this afternoon I detect a shift in what they are saying.

IMHO they over-reacted and now need to climb down and save face.

Now they are using words like 'dynamic' and 'We are working closely with Government, airports and airlines, and airframe and aero engine manufacturers to get a better understanding of the effects of the ash cloud and to seek solutions.' I bet it will all be over by tomorrow and a statement along the lines of ' after extensive testing and in consultation with enging manufactures etc etc...the ban will be lifted from ??:??hrs

I hope I'm right.

Digitalis
 

Digitalis, thank you...a lucid, intelligent post. No hyperbole, just pragmatic logic. I agree completely.