Time to let NATS firmly off the hook. Both Adonis and Mandelson have now admitted that it is Eurocontrol/EC that is calling the shots.

How much of this industry shutdown is based on science and how much on "beyond my paygrade"?

In the past Mr Etna has erupted and UA1 was closed while UB23 remained open.

In the Middle East aircraft fly in airspace where temperature inversions trap sand in the air with fairly high concentrations sufficient for the 1-11 that I flew over 30 years ago to show sand erosion on the fan blades. We are surely not intending to fly through the main area of contamination so what exactly is the difference of flying in Europe in current conditions and flying day in and day out in the Middle East?

I recognise that it might have long term implications for shutdown rates but is the industry going to be brought to its knees for the sake of that?

Possibly if we flew with tabards on it will satisfy the Insurance industry.:rolleyes:

Where is the dust cloud ?? Cannot see it...

The sky over my head is deep blue and the stars are night are bright...No reddish haze whatsoever.

certainly its up here well diluted at least at my latitude.

Last summer went to an airshow in Tripoli Libya with a Sukhoi 29 and 2 Extra 300's.

The whole week we had light thermal winds carrying...Sand. Not sand storms, but light winds depositing small amounts of sand over time everywhere...

No air filters fitted on Sukhois or Extra's. Nothing we could do about that but cover the air intakes in between flights and rinse the canopies taking care not to scratch them.

These conditions are encountered so often in North Africa and Gulf states, how come we don't hear anything about that more often ???

Anyone involved in maintenance in such an environment could say something ?

Back home, we gave a nice cleaning; Sand found its way in in every corner down to the fuel filters... We used water and shampoo for the exposed surfaces, gasoline and compressed air for engine bays, undercarriages and hinges.
A few ounces of Libyan sand left a brownish streak on the ground once the water and fuel had evaporated....

Lucky the piston engines we use have big bores (1 liter and more each), and big valves, but it does no good to them.

In Triopli I saw a few SF 260's Marchetti's piston singles flying every day, they use the same type Lycoming engine than the Extra 300's. I hope they are fitted with air filters, but what about the jets and helicopters turbines ?

Sky 9 - I understood that sand and volcanic dust are totally different in structure.

KLM doing ( only) cargo flights for now.
3 to leave today during daylight hours

Definitely Dash ! But the abrasive grinding effect is the same, or is it ???

@ Scott C:

Depends where you are. Heathrow's at capacity, at least for preferred schedule times - but CAA could decide to open up to night landings in these "exceptional circumstances"?

But are there trained staff to deal with Customs and Border control? Or would they have to wait to queue in the morning to be let into the country?

If your repatriated holidaymakers don't mind being landed at Goole, only the latter consideration applies.

Sunfish
 

Spot on could not have put it better myself!!

Thanks for the reply.

I would have thought that the airports and airlines would work every hour to get things back to normal.

I had my flight with Emirates from Manchester to Beijing cancelled last Thursday and hope to go this Thursday. However,at £458 return l do wonder if paying an additional charge into a fund to help out stranded passengers in events like these would be a good idea....£10 extra and l would still have bought the ticket.

We all want something for nothing nowadays....flying is an expensive business

At severe risk of my Forum access, could the Mods consider removing some of the "Spotters' Forum" stuff?

The fact that a certain aircraft is over Brecon, or all the other 'radar spotter' inpts, isn't exactly taking the debate forward. Or helping those hoping to see operations resume.

I know you're trying to cope with a mountain of work, but it's getting impossible to sift the wheat from the chaff here.

Apologies in advance if that's inappropriate.

FRA looks pretty busy. At least 5 Condor aircraft have left in a few minutes.

My point exactly. :ugh:

What? Where? Who?
Do these 5 ac solve the problems of tens of thousands of pax?
Or all the airlines that are seeing money pouring down the drains?

There's flying in my garden - it's a seagull. :(

@ MPN 11

I see your point, but, at the end of the day it's helpful for those of us who are trying to report what is going on to mitigate the whole issue.

I fall between several stools here, I manage a few aircraft, fly, budget, pay the bills and coordinate other aspects besides.

Im not having a pop, I'm just pointing out that what is chaff to one person is wheat to another.

I agree that dredging up things that went on almost 30 years ago and that are highly unlikely now, are less then helpful, but whatever the scientific basis, the fact that test flights are taking place to help is a relevant point, and information about which flights are routinely able to operate to and from where is also salient for all of us.

Best Regards

Jeff

Hi. I only normally post on the historic aviation forum, but this ash cloud thing is such a big issue that I've got questions that can only-I think-be answered here. At the outset, I should also say that I am not a pilot or an engineer, merely a long time propliner enthusiast.

I know, of course, that turborprops are merely jet engines attached to propellors, but could it be said that they are somewhat less vulnerable to damage from the ash cloud? If so-and someone shoot me down for my technical ignorance if necessary-could Europe's fleet of such aircraft undertake some flights, or is the risk of damage to the engines/risk to the aircraft and passengers simply too high?

I only suggest this because the situation does seem to be getting somewhat desperate. I await your guidance with interest.

Otherwise, given the situation and the nice weather we've had in the UK in recent days, presumably the lack of any commercial flights is nirvana for private flyers in piston-engined light aircraft? And on that tack, could air taxi piston-engined aircraft do a little ferrying about of the privileged few who could afford to hire them at this time?

Apologies too if these questions have already been raised, but this thread is so massive, I've just not had time to read any but a tiny no of the posts in it.

FlyBe boss calls for FAA rules to apply
 

Jim French of FlyBe has just been interviewed on BBCNews 24. Interestingly he wants Europe & in particualr the CAA to come into line with the FAA rules regarding flying in areas of volcanic ash clouds which he claimed would allow an immediate restart.

sorry
 

Offcourse with respect and same risk because i like it here, and no meaning to offend you
sorry there are some people exited about the few in industry who try move there ass of landingstrips and reports on that to follow also the solutions and speculations.

Dont tell me that this post from you contributes to solve dust matters?:
Jersey Airport has been very busy with repairs on the taxiways and rw.


I think it was yours :ok:

Grtz

What are the FAA rules and how would they allow for an immediate restart of European aviation?

GF

Do you honestly think that NATS wants no aircraft flying? They are in the same position as the airlines, no flights = no money.
And yes i think the govt is in a better position to decide than all of the above and i would also include NATS. Thats what the govt is there for. To make those hard decisions, thats the point of them. The airlines would have continued flying, the pilots would have been under massive pressure to fly and with the greatest respect to the PAX most of them seem to think i stand in front of a parking aircraft waving two table tennis bats so i'll not listen to them. The reason that NATS took the course of action that they did is because the CAA and DofT wouldn't.

Exactly what level of 'ash' is permitted to allow flights to restart ?



(I think that maybe there isn't one :rolleyes: )

Exactly what level of 'ash' is permitted to allow flights to restart ?
Eurocontrol press release at 9p CET.
They are promising answers.

Unfortunately Jim French didn't go into anymore detail (it was only a 2 minute interview) but hopefully someone on here will know about the FAA rules? (guidelines).

More teasers coming from Eurocontrol's tweeted messages.. Regarding "negotiations"... Hopefully there will be some real news this time. Press release coming soon

Better news i hear, new maps anyone ??

Sorry about that "Over Brecon" bit. In normal circumstances you would obviously have a point and normally I would not bother reporting an aircraft making Brecon, although apparently being the only commercial aircraft in UK airspace does give it celebrity.

What I should perhaps have said, rather than taking the short cut, is that it is interesting that BA seem now to be mounting positive steps towards understanding more clearly what we are up against and that the only aircraft currently visible in UK airspace does seems to be said BA test flight, which happens to be flying cautiously over Brecon.

This looks like a positive move from BA and I hope it sheds some light.

Rgds

Hi all,

personally I´m more on the restrictive side. Nobody knows exactly how to compute this "cloud* and how to deal with different concentrations in it. In the last 50 years we never had such a occurence over Central Europe.
I'm wondering, beside the reports of the finn F18´s, have there been any reports or remarks from flight crews around, regarding volcano activities over Europe in the last few day? Do some crew encouter subtle indications of ash in the air, especially in the night before grounding?

thanks

Bernhard (LSZH)

Katla
 

Why no media coverage of the Katla seismographs going crazy? Is it significant?

Órói á stöðvum við Eyjafjallajökul
:confused:

Apologies to all I may have offended - it's just getting very difficult to track what's happening. A little bit of "Less is More" might help - focus on where your input actually gets anyone.

I think we need substantial information from "The Authorities" rather than innumerable personal views [however valid many of them may be].

BA 747
 

BA 747 on its way back into cardiff, now over western Ireland

Totally agree. What is needed is data and those who govern the airspace to justify their decisions based on that data. Surely that is logical ?

Thank you for sharing that information.
BTW, they are called aircraft, not planes.

Turboprops and ash
 

All gas turbines are vulnerable to the minerals in this cloud. I suppose the mass airflow through a turboprop is somewhat less than through a turbofan. So the effects may be reduced per hour flown compared to a fan.

I await admonishment with trepidation.

Aha - a 'hard decision'. Are you quite sure that shouldn't be 'tough'?

1985 - you are Gordon Brown.

Meetings will now be convened all over Europe amongst aviation authorities to decide the best way of agreeing a party line to allow a relaxation of restrictions without openly admitting the massive over-reaction in the first place.

I find it a bit funny to outfit testplanes with probes to fly into the cloud (as is being done at slowmo speed in Germany) to measure a particle concentration to then calculate or deduct a risk percentage for engines to fail/pitots to clog while aircraft have already flown through it and have been assessed. It is like proving the obvious.

Nic

@ Admiral 346:

It could be rather helpful to know what the aircraft has survived, yes? For the future, like?

hartman and simple solution
 

I tryed to find out what mr Hartman ment with his statement about NASA.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/04...ful-study-says.

2 PAGES

Between the text are statements from nasa and in contradiction what Nasa could say about the nowday situation to my opinion.

Most interesting question of the moment is how much dust is within the bandwith of responsible flight operation.

I think not a easy answer to formulate, the maintenance is an issue and safety. so there should be 2 answers.
1.for meantenance in fact financial issue ask the company
2.safety i think is easy. actually there is no risk to my opinion.

The risk of not follow maintenance when the equipment (aircraft) is used in dust Thats the risk for this moment. And what different maintenance and inspection !!

Its a simple point of vieuw, many times for difficult things can be found easy solutions.
Separate the fleat used in dusty conditions and not dusty conditions and separate the maintenance programm.
WILL IT SECURE THE SAFETY OF PEOPLE FLYING IS THE QUESTION

is that basicly a solution?

Checking the time, is this the same aircraft which hasn't yet landed at Cardiff? :hmm:

Sunfish

This is a long term business consideration in decision making and not a short term concern to salvaging your current customer base

To put it another way, the operators already make decisions like this on a real time basis everyday.

Perhaps we can revisit this months from now.

It's approaching STU at FL150 inbound to EGFF.

Sinking Feeling....
 

Safety is the number one priority for us all in the industry.

Of course, this unfolding drama is doing untold damage to our industry, however I am getting a bad feeling (especially listening to Euro Controls press conference and taking into account all these TEST flights by legacy airlines), these commercial operators could be attempting to persuade the powers that be to relax the restrictions already in place, just for the sake of reducing the rate of cash burn, thus having a detrimental effect on safety.

There is plenty of evidence published that states volcanic ash does untold damage to a turbine engine, and can lead to multiple engine failures. KLM Lufthansa and British Airways are not exactly independent entities.

I agree in the authorities decision to ground aircraft, especially considering the severe risk associated with volcano ash. I just hope their resolve continues and will not allow the "BIG BOYS" in the airline industry to pull sway on what effects ALL aircraft sharing the same airspace.


I hope someone can ease my concerns, your comments welcome.


High Low

Too bloody right - I'm supposed to be flying to the USA on Tuesday! :ugh:

But that's not the point - it's getting incredibly difficult to absorb substantial info with the innumerable posts on what I might call 'fringe issues'.

This is a BIGGIE. Tens of thousands of crew and pax are screwed, jobs are on the line [or possibly over the line], commerce is being damaged ... and frankly the individual movement of a single aircraft, waypoint by waypoint, doesn't seem to help develop an intellectual perception of where we are.

The Eurocontrol statement possibly will.

The bottom line is ..........It's not safe to fly through volcanic ash, and no one can predict with any confidence where it is likely to be present at any given time.
Accept it and deal with it, if it hurts your pocket.. tough :=