SOP's
 

Hello AirBusted320, post #883

It's been a while, this thread has fallen quiet now that everybody is on to the AF447.

On SOP's: they make it possible to step onboard an aircraft with someone you have never met before and fly away safely and efficiently!

The SOP of a company however, is not the ONLY thruth in aviation. The biggest hassle when moving from one company to another, while going to fly the exact same type of aircraft, is to learn the SOP's of the new company.

When sticking to SOP's religiously, like a real fundamentalist,how would you solve the following problem: my company SOP is to lower the gear on ILS glideslope, while passing 2.000 ft. German law (for noise abatement) requires me to keep the gear up until 1.300 ft. Either I violate SOP or break the law?
How about a pragmatic approach? When I cannot see the airport in a timely way, I have to be stable at 1.000 ft, so I will stay close to my SOP's.
When I can see the airport early enough, I can use the company SOP to be stable at 500 ft (in visual conditions), so I stay close to the German regulations and delay gear extension beyond my SOP rules.

Evaluating options is not a breach of company or Airbus SOP's: the SOP's require that the calculation that is used for the actual take-off is properly (double) checked.

As far as boards go, I do not stick to SOP's out of fear for any board. If I would make an error in the way that you describe in #883, then I have made an error, period. I try not to make errors and I use SOP's as an efficient way to trap errors, whether made by me or by my mate.
The error could just as well be blamed on the cup of coffee that I drank during cockpit preparations. The main thing is, after all the "fooling" around, concentrate on the important items when needed (not only in Melbourne, but also in Madrid, for instance).

The quick answer is that you must follow the stricter rule. A company's SOP may not invalidate a national air law. The company knows this as they sent you to this airport...

I heard to today that it is going to be repaired, fairly reliable source, I believe. Possibly have to fly it to Toulouse, unpressurised?

Indeed it is. Plane is being flown to toulouse at 10,000ft for repair any day now. Routing via perth and dubai I believe......:bored:

$100m repair bill for damaged Air Emirates A350
 

$100m repair bill for damaged Air Emirates A350 | Herald Sun



EMIRATES will pay an expected $100 million to repair a jet severely damaged in a near disastrous take-off incident at Melbourne Airport.

A team of French pilots and engineers, which has been working on the jet for the past five weeks, plans to ferry the plane at low altitude to Toulouse next week.

* Multimedia interactive: How the near disaster happened
* Earlier report: Air Emirates jet was centimetres from crashing

Once there it will undergo one of the biggest aircraft salvage jobs ever undertaken by Airbus.

The entire tail and last two sections of fuselage will be stripped away to allow engineers to replace a fractured bulkhead, a huge salvage task that has never been done before.

Because of the bulkhead fracture, the cockpit and passenger cabin cannot be pressurised, which will force the ferry crew to fly the plane at no higher than 12,000ft.

Senior pilots have said the low-altitude, four-day flight will consume copious quantities of fuel and cause the pilots to put down in Bali, Singapore, Dubai and Cairo before the final leg along the Mediterranean Sea to France.

"For the crew it will be like flying as it was in the 1950s when passenger jets had to make the journey unpressurised from Australia to Europe," long-haul pilot Capt Ian Woods said.

"Because of the low altitude the four engines will simply guzzle fuel, but there are plenty of places along the route that they can put down," said Capt Woods, a veteran long-haul pilot with more than 20,000 hours in his logbook.

Iain Lachlan, Emirates senior vice-president for engineering, told how getting the plane ready to fly after the March 20 incident where the tail struck the tarmac on take-off, had involved replacing several lower skin panels on the fuselage.

A number of structural frames and stringers used to join sections of the airframe had also been replaced, he said in an email.

"The aircraft is currently scheduled to begin commercial operations in late October or early November after undergoing the required safety checks," he said.

Emirates' decision to repair the four-engine, A350-500 Airbus rather than buy an identical model secondhand for about the same price follows a precedent Qantas set after one of its Boeing 747s over-ran the runway at Don Muang airport at Bangkok in September 1999, where it ended up with an engine ripped off.

Never mind "one of the biggest aircraft salvage jobs ever undertaken by Airbus".

If they're repairing an EK A350-500, it'll be a veritable miracle.

I wonder if the media report is not confusing the facts of the Qantas incident with the proposed repair to the EK A340-500

I doubt that it would cost 100 million to repair, if it is going to be back in service by November.

From memory the Qantas incident cost 100 million to fix and took a very long time to repair in Bangkok. The aircraft should have been written off. But Qantas wanted to maintain its safety record of never loosing a hull.

The Qantas incident was more substancial than an engine been torn off.
Note, Qantas has always referred to this as an incident and not an accident.

or 'LOSING' a hull? Maybe the hull is 'loose' as in not tight as well - for an intelligent group such as this it is incredible how many do not understand the difference between 'lose' and 'loose'! Drift thread, I know!

I'm with you "smiffy" :ok:
It's amazing how many people don't know the difference. :ugh:
lose definition | Dictionary.com
loose definition | Dictionary.com
;)

Sorry to continue the drift. :E

she's on the way to perth right now...scenic flight at 10K!

Would it not be possible to fly it back to France at normal cruise flight levels - with the crew on O2?

Rather than burning a gazzilllion tonnes of kero at A100?

crew on o2
 

No problem at all

At 10,000 ft, they'd be OCTA most of the way...

It seems some unnamed individuals have sent emails to the Australian regulator, blaming the airline´s corporate culture, according to this article:

Emirates pilots speak to regulator | Herald Sun

Clearly...James7 is unfamiliar with the pressure breathing requirements using oxygen at high altitudes.:rolleyes:

One wonders...is this (James7) an example of the airline pilots of tomorrow?

I gather that the ferry flight will be conducted with the gear up (the article doesn't mention it); anybody knows? I'm surprised that the range is so severely limited, even at FL100, given that the aircraft will carry no payload, presumably.

James7, I think there are quite a few here who'd be very interested in hearing whether you still believed it to "no problem at all" after you tried what was suggested (normal cruise levels, unpressurised, crew on oxy) for just one short-ish sector, let alone Melbourne-Toulouse. Even if you managed the oxygen - which would be debatable - I'd just love to see how you handled the cabin temperature.

No problem at all.:(

Wynsock / James,
Ever heard of nitrogen narcosis aka "the bends" ?

Yep, years ago a Connie Kalitta DC-8 crew famously tried to fly unpressurized at FL330 with the inevitable result:

NYC94LA062

Next hop is PH direct Dubai at 10K, 13+ hours, so I'm guessing it's with the dunlops up.

Hey Wiley...

Just a thought...maybe he meant...unpressurized, but not unairconditioned!

Just cause you're not pressurized doesn't mean you're not airconditioned!

i.e., you can run the packs with the outflow valve(s) fully open!

Just a thought,

Cheers...FD...:)

Regarding fuel dumping...
 

As I understand it, the aircraft does not necessarily have to be over water to safely dump. Most, if not all, of the fuel will simply evaporate when dumped above a couple of thousand feet...

An old, tired Flight Dispatcher...

:)

o2
 

411 pressure breathing is not required untll 40,000 feet, where it is essential. There are many aircraft that fly at 30,000 ft unpressurised.

This book is well worth reading:
Fundamentals of Aerospace Medicine By Jeffrey R. Davis, Robert Johnson, Jan Stepanek.

Firewall : Nitrogen narcosis is an effect on the brain of gaseous nitrogen that occurs to divers who go below 100 FSW, due to the laws of partial pressures.

We used to go to 38,000 ft unpressurized and without pressure breathing (H Type mask). Mind you, we weren't up there for very long for the Vampire ran out of fuel very rapidly!

I imagine the logistic...
 

...involved in accomplishing simple things like having your meal or going to the toilet when you are attached to a mask above 30.000ft...:confused:

Flight Detent, I'm quite aware that airconditioning would still be available, but I think the packs would be a tad overwhelmed trying to keep a halfway bearable cabin temperature at 30000'+ if unpressurised, particularly on an extended flight. And a trip to the toilet would be 'interesting', to put it mildly.

decompression sickness, bends, nitrogen narcosis
 

I see here some misinformation about the subject and would like to correct it. As a diver I know what is going on in human body with pressure and various gases.

Nitrogen narcosis.
It starts normally at the depths of 30-40m of water. With ambient pressures of 4-5 bar. Narcosis can not happen in flight. Never! narcosis is not related to gaseous nitrogen in brain. If gas appear in your brain you are having serious decompression sickness. It is very serious and life threatening1

Decompression sickness.
Its mild forms are called also bends. If ambient pressure drops too fast, either due to too fast cabin decompression or too fast ascent to surface, nitrogen, dissolved in body tissues starts exit tissues and to create tiny nitrogen bubbles in joints, muscles and if problem is serious in your bloodstream. The result is pain in joints, and numbness and skin iching in less serious forms. Bubbles in bloodstream block bloodsupply and if these bubbles block bloodsupply in heart or brain, result is serious. This will certainly incapacitate just anybody.
There is an important factor - older, less fit, more fat and tired persons are much more prone to decompression sickness than younger, fit, and healthy persons. The difference is remarkable. Really.

When flying at 10000m (was it 36000 foot?) then ambient pressure is approx. 0,27 bar, and using pure oxygene is pretty normal as oxygen partial pressure must not drop below 0,18 bar. Below then hypoxia developes. The problem here is that removing nitrogen part and decreasing ambient pressure to 0,27bar would make the normal, dissolved nitrogen exit tissues quite fast. There is no problem if you breath oxygen at sea level. Problem could arise when ambient pressure is decreased as well. As decreased pressure will force nitrogen out of tissues more rapidly.
Thats why some pilots who fly high, need to breath pure oxygen before flight - to reduce nitrogen, dissolved in tissues, to avoid incapacitating deco sickness.
So, with uncompressed cabin, breathing pure oxygen, flying at normal flight levels is possible, only you must reduce your dissolved nitrogen before flight.

Hope that helps with understanding of deco sickness, partial pressures, nitrogen narcosis. Though I've never seen any deco tables for flightcrew :)

The aircraft left Dubai for Toulouse this morning, again filed at 10k.

So what would happen if you were at FL310 for example on a cargo flight and had a depressurization and decided to continue on 100% oxygen?

You'd have the very real probability of getting the bends, big time. :eek:

News Limited newspapers in Australia have an interview with the pilot of EK407 today. Sadly the article doesn't appear to be on their website yet (except referenced in an editorial at Emirates hero | Herald Sun) but here are some snippets:

Here is a link to the complete article in today's newspaper:
Emirates pilot in tail strike near-disaster tells his story | Herald Sun

Hi all!
I read the Herald articles, amazing...
About the repair of the aircraft: someone mentioned that the Qantas B747 cited in the article was repaired because of their will of having an "incident" and not a "loss"...

Could be true to this EK A345 as well?... Repairing for a nice sack of money just to not to have it written off? Is it really reasonable to do this work? What are you, experts thinking about it?

It's a matter of balancing the cost of repair against the aircraft market value after repair. An A340-500/600 still commands a healthy price, right?

...and methinks Airbus Industrie has a nearly new, only slightly used A340 aft end on hand for a quick job... :}

Indeed, so we sanction cuts & shuts on aircraft now ?
I knew aviation standards world wide were in decline, but I didn't think they had sunk to such low levels yet.
Thank you for informing us so.
I suppose the authorities will accept this hybrid as a "remanufactured" aircraft ?
I wonder which serial and line numbers will it get - the front end numbers, the back end numbers, or a new "third set" ?

Finally the perfect melting-pot!!

The ultimate Etihad of Emirates, to create a Phoenix called Airbus A340-550, front from EK, rear from EY.

Dear Sheikies, did it really have to take two screw-ups to show you the way? :ugh:

What article in the herald?

Hahaha, really, there's an A346 aft part in the cupboard at Airbus' Toulouse facility. :D

"Unregistered", search back a little, in June someone mentioned a Herald-article about the repair of this EK A345.

But, i see a problem in this mix of Etihad and Emirates aircraft parts: A345 is 17.1 m (56 ft 1 in) tall, and A346 is 17.3 m (56 ft 9 in)... i suppose because of the different moment arm - because of the different lenght.
So the 2 aircraft part is not compatible to each other... Or?

Anyway, for a joke, it was really nice, but i should kill it with these inches. :)

Interesting to contemplate a cut and shunt of a Eithad rear onto an EK head... such a graft wouldn't last long as they would head off in opposite directions before long... Probably be a case of the tail wagging the cockpit anyway.

Composite
 

Remember the B-17 Swooze