Thanks, Kate.

Not a 737 expert, but wouldn't the crew have to first disarm the slide before opening a door? It looks like a strong impact, I remember the BA 777 ending up intact but also on the ground with no landing gear. All but two slides were popped there.

This is shaping up as one of the most disappointing years in aviation safety in recent history - the only redeeming feature is the high level of survivability shown in some of these high profile incidents.

The airport authorities might try and steer you into an 'on limits' landing, but the final decision rests entirely with the crew. Many a time I have requested a runway change, and recieved it, due to wind limits.

Sky now replaying the ATC, although its the ground freq. lots of people being asked to STANDBY. Hardly newsworthy, and purely sensationalising it all.

Wake up world!
 

Early speculation is never a good thing, not even on a rumour forum like this one!

What is sure is that the professional aviation/pilot organisations worldwide made predictions that are coming true unfortunately.

SAFETY in aviation stagnated in the last two years...

ACCIDENTS/INCIDENTS will be on a sharp rise over the coming years.

AIRLINES are failing to invest more in safety due to complacency. Current credit crisis is not helping in this aspect either.

PILOT training and the job-appeal of the professional has been deliberatly downgraded by airlines. This resulted in lower quality training and selection.


Nobody knows what caused this accident so far, and it might be due to the weather or a malfunction, but I just feel we had too many crashed the last two months!

Turkish Airlines is the fastest growing airline in Europe, sponsored by the Turkish governement to increase the country's public profile. It is a known fact that the pressure this brings with it has made Turkish Airlines one of the toughest companies to work for as a pilot. Pilot standards always have been average and their FT/DT limitations (rules under which they roster crew and plan the flights) are awfully tiring and demanding! Arriving in EHAM at 9h30 (I think was ETA) means they left IST at 4h30 (2h30 local time). If we could only see what the pilots where doing before this flight, I am pretty certain they only had minimum rest before this flight!

Once more, I am not saying this is what caused this unfortunate accident, but it might be a contributing factor!

Flight Intl together with several organisations are setting up a worldwide campain to improve aviation safety, upgrade the respect toward pilots and flightcrew. FT/DT regulations are slowly being changed by the governing organisations ( JAA Subpart Q) but this is facing heavy oposition from the airlines!

I think, and so is Flight Intl, that it is time the general public becomes aware of whatis going on in AVIATION.

I am always wondering how many people would actually get on board of their airplane as a passenger if they should know how tired and fatigued the crew is (cabin and flightdeck), how hard these airplanes are being pushed (maintenance etc)...

:mad:

close up pics
 

here some very grim close-up pics

http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/ANP-9259316.jpg

http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/ima...hschiphol2.jpg

Several bodies under white sheets next to the a/c r seen on dutch television

either the impact was too strong and stopped the slides from deploying or the crew were very efficient and managed to anaylise the situation quick enough to disarm the slides! anything is possible but it seemed to work out right as there r many survivors.

Being a 737-800 pillot myself, I wonder if for some reason the auto throttle had been disengaged and the crew did not notice. The speed reduces and the crew did not notice, stall warning, apply power, aggressive pitch/power couple which leads to a further stall. If they were unable to recover from that then it could have come down. It happened at another airline recently, although without an actual crash occurring.

Busz

Survivor reports feeling turbulence shortly before impact.

Eyewitness reports that aircraft flew 'unusually slow' in a very nose-high attitude before 'dropping straight down, hitting the ground tail-first'.

Unconfirmed report of engines not producing thrust on impact.

More pics:

SpitsNieuws : 'Lichamen onder lakens het vliegtuig uit'

Tailsection looks very badly damaged indeed.

Survivability of Impact
 

If there are fatalities / serious injuries there may not have been time to alert passengers about bracing themselves, according to the passenger report. That being the case passengers may have hit their heads on the seat in front as they were not in a brace position. Very sad, but hope I am wrong and that there are no fatalities / serious injuries.

At least 1 fatality being reported now, but it is clear most survived. Congratulations to the crew.

No fire??
 

Given the extent of the damage, and the apparent lack of any fire, wouldnt it be a reasonable assumption that there was no fuel left in the tanks and the plane fell short of the runway?

This of course would raise the question as to why the crew didnt raise an alarm of low fuel and take appropriate action prior to it getting to the stage we now see.

Not intending to speculate - just interested to know if it's possible to have fuel in the tanks, have such substantial airframe damage but still have no fire.

Live picture feed (commentary in Dutch):

Journaal 24 | Nederlandse Omroep Stichting

Why? We don't know why the aircraft crashed; we don't know if it was an aircraft or system failure or pilot error. In many crashes the crew are just passengers in the final stage.

Those hi-res pictures just send shivers down my back. Let's pray to whichever entity we believe in that everybody got away with this one, and the only casualty is related to Mr Boeing. The tail section looks the worst. Here's hoping.

It seems not unlike the 777 at Heathrow, albeit a lot further out from the threshold. Windshear? Seems unlikely if no one else reported it. Fuel starvation/contamination? We'll find out in due course.

lookin at the sky news footage the slide was armed as the red strip was across the window, so it didnt deploy automatically

Well, a fire requires a rupture of tanks/fuel lines and a source of ignition.

The hot engines appear to have detached, so are far from any leaking fuel, and the wings seem to be fairly intact, so there was no misted fuel to ignite easily and then spread to pools of fuel. In addition, the ploughed field is ideal for soaking up leaks and making it much harder to ignite. It also has the useful property of being soft and so absorbing impact forces, which helps to reduce deceleration injuries.

@DaveReid

I saw the small areas of damage you mentioned, and seeing the condition of the rest of the fuselage I'd guess it would be the frames of the cockpit bukhead being pushed upwards as the fuselage distorted from below, rupturing the top skin. Or maybe the structure around any galleys/toilets aft of the cockpit.

Make sense?

Dutch news reports engine trouble (sounds like dual flame out) with a glide in. Airplane came down in tail low attitude.

Geraldine Coughlan on Sky

"The Polderbaan is one of the safest runways at AMS"

That suggests some are not quite so safe or are dangerous.

UTTER TOSH!

I do wish they would just keep to the facts.

‘Brace Brace’ Announcement
 

Quite rightly, announcing to passengers what is going in is low in the priority list when pilots are dealing with an emergency. They need to deal with the situation and tell pax what is going on later.

However, if there is small chance that an aircraft may crash-land / very hard-land (call it what you will), should it not be the case that the ‘brace brace’ announcement is made as a matter of routine? Although this will scare some passengers on the occasions it is not needed, could it help prevent head trauma injuries that could be avoided?

(Question asked with no speculation at all on the cause of this accident).

55555555555555555

Telegraph now reporting 5 fatalities. :sad:

Just speaking to a friend in Holland, at SPL. Eye wittness reports are that it hit the ground tail first in a high nose attitude.... which makes sense looking at the photos....

For those who understand Dutch more here.Scroll to the bottom for more photos

FWIW A press conference starting about now

pitch oscilliations
 

Heard on radio station "Noord Holland": an eyewitness driving on the highway at the time reported seeing the aircraft making repeated and quite heavy pitch oscilliations before crashing very hard tail first.

The radio station also has people at the scene who heard from emergency workers reported that the pilots were found "slammed forward in obviously very serious condition". Inside the aircraft many passengers were found to be stuck in between seats and had to be liberated by the firebrigade.

Escape Slides
 

Escape slides need to drop a significant distance below the door sill before auto inflation. It is therefore quite possible that in this instance that did not happen though the slide package would still "flop" out onto ground if doors still armed.

ATC tapes?
 

Several frequencies of EHAM are available live on Listen to Live Air Traffic Control Communications | LiveATC.net (just happened to listen in yesterday) - but not sure if the relevant sections of the tape would be available on their archives. They did post the tape of the time immediately after the crash though:

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/EH...Post-Crash.mp3

In case anyone recorded it just before and during the accident please post a link or file.

Thx,
Uncle Maxwell

Bridge builder, there was probably no time for a "Brace brace" call. The crew were probably very busy. Obviously if you know that there is a chance that things may be uncomfortable you will plan for a "Brace brace" call. This aircraft appears to be very late in the approach close to the ground when something catastrophic occurred. Not much time for planning anything.

Sky reporting five fatalities but not confirmed. This according to Dutch TV.

Dutch tv reporting 3 of the fatalities were in the flight deck.. :(

Still saying there were at least 5 people killed with more possible bodies still in the aircraft..

Busz
 

Quote:

---

Being a 737-800 pillot myself, I wonder if for some reason the auto throttle had been disengaged and the crew did not notice. The speed reduces and the crew did not notice, stall warning, apply power, aggressive pitch/power couple which leads to a further stall. If they were unable to recover from that then it could have come down. It happened at another airline recently, although without an actual crash occurring.

---

I suspect you are referring to this one? here

Update - reporting 6 pax and 3 crew didn't survive.

Press conference now at 1330.

NOS reporting 9 fatalities, including three in the cockpit.

Crash Survivability
 

Thanks One Post.

The rear facing seat debate, which was underway post Kegworth, may well begin again.

Reported 9 fatalaties including 3 Flight Deck Crew.

Sky News UK

The close ups show that the R1 door gert bar is in the disarmed postion, with the aircraft that close to soil(post crash) it would not make a lot of difference either way, the aircraft appears to have landed with low forward airspeed and tail first resulting in a cantilever nose pitch down, this would be arrested by the gear/engine pods, before they detached likely causing the shear line forward of the wing, with the forward section then impacting the ground and the upward damage aft of cock pitt area.

Someone appears to be sat next to the wing using a mobile phone.

It won't be a no fuel situation, birds are posible but unlickley at 10:30 local, dusk dawn are the main risk at AMS

This has the hallmarks of being very slow and at the back of the drag curve for what ever reason

Regretfully Sky News reporting 9 casualties, inc three on the flightdeck, but exact numbers not confirmed.

More reports being provided and a news conference from Schipol at 12.30 GMT

Oh dear! Commercial pilot giving advice on Sky News saying that its a 2 man flight deck and 3 died in flight deck so 'who was thrid person'...i guess suggesting terrorism, Sky News would love that... Could be any reason-familiarisation nflight for example.

Would suggest 3 in the Flightdeck, more likely to be training going on than anything else ?

winglets on both sides sheered off halfway
 

What is absolutely remarkable is that the upper parts of the winglets on both wings seem to be sheered off.

Would that suggest that the a/c flipped over before coming to rest ?

Could explain why, as apparently reported, the a/c is lies with its nose 180° towards runway 18R. And it could explain the very heavy impact damage on the underside of the forward part of the a/c